Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

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What do you believe were the sequence of events?

  • Travis was stabbed, his throat slashed, and then he was shot

    Votes: 464 71.2%
  • Travis was shot and then he was stabbed and his throat was slashed

    Votes: 180 27.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 8 1.2%

  • Total voters
    652
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If you look up the video of a prisoner of war beheaded in Iraq you can hear the noises that someone makes while their throat is slit. It is disgusting, I actually recommend you never to watch this because its the most awful thing I've ever seen. This man was actually very calm because he knew it was going to happen and they had him say good bye to his family before it. So he would probably be making less noise than TA would because TA would obviously not have already accepted his fate in such a fast attack. The POW only stopped making noise once his spinal cord was cut and he was beheaded. They make noises because blood gets into the airways. They're going to continue to try to breath but the trachea is cut so it makes noise.

I will take your word on that awful thing the POW was subjected to God bless his soul.
I see it as two mayor things happen. The wind pipe is severed and art that point in the throat you try to breath from. Now if there is blood that mixes with inhaled air making a frothy awful mess.
If you are lucky, both Carotid arteries wil be cut as well. Then it seems you slip out of consciousness in seconds compared to the much slower wind pipe cut.

PS..I just watched it, some Arab/Christian thing. That's it for me for awile. This man's head was severed and death appeared to be sudden but I turned the vol off. Wow this JA is an animal.
 
Juan Martinez



I just can't see this with him lying down. The most likely gunshot in that case would be a bullet through the head. This is more like a 'missed shot.' She wouldn't have made this shot on purpose. And, where, in that little space, is she going to get 3 or 4 feet away from him?



The reason we do think it started in the shower is that strange last picture of him, the picture before it where he looks horrified, the ceiling picture after it, and 62 seconds later the picture of him on his back on the floor.

Not often you have video and time stamps of murder.

IMO

It was a bullet through the head. She wasn't trying to hit him at that angle. The bullet struck him and passed through his skull at the angle it because of the way they were lined up. The room is bigger than 3-4ft, so she would have had plenty of room to have not been right on top of him. The ME's testimony was that he believes the gun was at least 2ft away from him. 2-4ft is not that big of a distance.

I don't see horrorified or terrified in his face. I see annoyed. I don't see anything in that picture that makes me think he is scared at that point. Why was he sitting in the shower? Who knows. All that really gives us is a starting point for the clock. It is not rock solid evidence that the attack started in the shower. I t does present her with an opportunity, but that does not mean she took that opportunity.
 
So far, I've only seen the gun firsters (yeah really, firsters is a real word. it just looks and sounds so weird) proposing the stabbing started in the shower. I don't believe I have read one proposed knife first opinion where she started stabbing him in the shower.

I am knife firster who thinks it started in the shower. The ceiling photo is good evidence that a disturbance happened while she was standing in front of the shower. But I don't believe he was sitting at the time.
 
It was a bullet through the head. She wasn't trying to hit him at that angle. The bullet struck him and passed through his skull at the angle it because of the way they were lined up. The room is bigger than 3-4ft, so she would have had plenty of room to have not been right on top of him. The ME's testimony was that he believes the gun was at least 2ft away from him. 2-4ft is not that big of a distance.

I don't see horrorified or terrified in his face. I see annoyed. I don't see anything in that picture that makes me think he is scared at that point. Why was he sitting in the shower? Who knows. All that really gives us is a starting point for the clock. It is not rock solid evidence that the attack started in the shower. I t does present her with an opportunity, but that does not mean she took that opportunity.

I agree, I see the basic stare into space model look.
 

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So far, I've only seen the gun firsters (yeah really, firsters is a real word. it just looks and sounds so weird) proposing the stabbing started in the shower. I don't believe I have read one proposed knife first opinion where she started stabbing him in the shower. But, I do agree with you that his vital organs were better protected while sitting in the shower. Now, his hairline might have been exposed to a cut while sitting in the shower. I don't think anything happened in the shower be it with gun or knife.

:seeya: FYI, I'm a knife-firster who thinks that the initial stab did begin in the shower, most likely with TA being directed to kneel or stand facing JA (making his chest easy to access), place his hands behind his head (getting them out of the way) and close his eyes (meaning he never saw the knife coming). I think that's when the stab to the heart occurred. It was well-aimed and would have been the kind of instantly-fatal blow JA wanted, had it gone just a little bit deeper. (This wound stands out to me because, with the exception of the slash to the throat, this was the only wound that was going to be fatal (at least, without swift medical attention), it's one of the deepest wounds, and unlike many of the back/neck wounds, has no similar, parallel wounds near it. It just seems more deliberate than many of the other wounds). I think TA got some or all of his defensive wounds while fighting his way out of the shower (possibly knocking JA down in the process), and then stumbled or fell toward the sink, pulled himself up using it as JA continued to attack him from behind. He may have briefly leaned forward to reflexively move his head away from her as she stabbed his neck, aspirating blood on the mirror in the process, and then lunged to the right and staggered out into the hallway in one final burst of strength...

I think one of the main reasons JA dragged him back to the shower after she killed him was that she was following through on what had been her initial plan for a quick, clean kill: stab TA to death in the shower and leave him there. When everything changed and she ended up with a horrifically bloody scene, she either consciously decided to return him to the bathroom to wash her blood and DNA from his body, or else her brain was so "scrambled" (apparently this happens easily) that she was blindly following the original plan.

All conjecture, of course, but it's one of the many scenarios that comports with the evidence.
 
If JA's initial blow was a surprise stab to his chest that severed the vena cava, then wouldn't TA have died almost instantly? I remember reading somewhere, perhaps in the ME's testimony, that TA would've only survived for seconds after that blow was dealt. In other words, how does a stab to the chest as the initial blow make it any more likely that TA would've been been able to sustain his apparently defensive wounds after the initial blow? Wouldn't TA die even more quickly from the chest wound than from the gunshot wound?

And if JA's initial blow was not the chest wound, then how does TA not overpower JA? At that point he would not have sustained a life threatening injury. Yet JA was never injured. In other words, TA was unable to mount any kind of offensive attack.
 
If JA's initial blow was a surprise stab to his chest that severed the vena cava, then wouldn't TA have died almost instantly? I remember reading somewhere, perhaps in the ME's testimony, that TA would've only survived for seconds after that blow was dealt. In other words, how does a stab to the chest as the initial blow make it any more likely that TA would've been been able to sustain his apparently defensive wounds after the initial blow? Wouldn't TA die even more quickly from the chest wound than from the gunshot wound?

And if JA's initial blow was not the chest wound, then how does TA not overpower JA? At that point he would not have sustained a life threatening injury. Yet JA was never injured. In other words, TA was unable to mount any kind of offensive attack.

Good thinking. That wound is more life threatening then the 50 grain bullet lodged in his jaw, a bullet three times the size of a pellet.
 
Knife-firsters: If you believe JA did not strike the initial blow in the shower (which I find to be an incredibly unlikely scenario given the photographic evidence shows she had spent 7+ minutes luring TA into the vulnerable sitting position, the fact that she almost certainly wanted to contain all of the evidence in the shower, and the timing of the attack as suggested by the bathroom ceiling photo and the first bleeding photo), then how do you think she carried out the attack?
 
Knife-firsters: If you believe JA did not strike the initial blow in the shower (which I find to be an incredibly unlikely scenario given the photographic evidence shows she had spent 7+ minutes luring TA into the vulnerable sitting position, the fact that she almost certainly wanted to contain all of the evidence in the shower, and the timing of the attack as suggested by the bathroom ceiling photo and the first bleeding photo), then how do you think she carried out the attack?

+1. Many pages back I challenged knifefirsters to lay out a detailed scenario as gunfirsters have done. I did not get much of a response, mostly complaints about how useless such an exercise is, since it is all conjecture. I suspect the real reason is that there are serious deficiencies of common sense required for a knifefirst scenario.

Who wants to be the knifefirst spokesperson? C'mon, step up to the challenge!! :)

Dave
 
Not the evidence I was referring to.

Explain how a fall would produce that blood spatter pattern in the toilet room? Why would he be going to the left at all if she left the room? A knife attack explains why very well.

And how about the impact spatter outside the room on the wall? And why was there a lot of blood under the bath mat? Your response is glossing over all this.

I don't think a fall would've caused the spatter in the toilet area. I believe the testimony of the blood spatter expert that those spots were a result of JA stabbing TA while he was low to the ground. That evidence does not change my theory in any way. I believe JA was stabbing TA in the bathroom and down the hallway.

The blood under the mat is meaningless. The entire floor was covered in water mixed with blood and the blood just happened to pool in certain areas, such as near/under the bath mat.

The passive drops are to the left side of the sink. But the gunshot is on the right side. Gunshot theory does not fit as well.

He was stopping or slowing in lots of places along his path according the spatter (when blood would pool). He had a hard time moving. Someone was in his way and he's losing lots of blood.

This is another handwave. Why would there be blood at the front of the sink? The blood drops and expiration are to the left. There's a conspicuous lack of blood on the right side if he had been shot to the right forehead. He would be losing a lot of blood through that wound.

Knife-first fits much more of the evidence than gun-first does.

I totally disagree. The blood spatter around the sink indicates that TA expirated onto the mirror while he was standing up and leaning over the sink with his head very close to the mirror for at least several seconds. The blood dripping down from his head area is totally consistent with blood dripping from his sinuses, not to mention the expiration--possibly a result of a sneeze, according to the expert.

There are only a few stab wounds that could possibly be causing such passive blood spatter at the sink, if TA had sustained those before he was at the sink, and none of those were life threatening.
 
I believe the bullet passed through the brain and I believe that he was able to stand up and put up a feeble defense for a brief time. It is not impossible like the ME asserted. I've read case studies and other personal accounts of people being hit with worse headshots (that penetrated brain) and still maintaining consciousness and mobility.

Not only is it possible, it was the ME's first statement after autopsy, according to the supplemental police report of Flores.

He stated that the gunshot wound would not have been fatal and would have only temporarily disabled Travis. He stated the stab wounds to Travis' back would not have been fatal either and that it was the chest wound and slicing of Travis neck that were fatal: grahamwinch.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/floresinvestigationreport.pdf
 
Not only is it possible, it was the ME's first statement after autopsy, according to the supplemental police report of Flores.

Yes. The ME states in his testimony that he did not remember speaking to detective Flores. But he clearly did speak to Flores, as indicated in Flores's report. And, at that time, the ME said TA was shot first.

Flores testified that he must've misunderstood what the ME told him, but I really don't think that's possible. The report captures what the ME said at the time he said it. The report is reliable evidence.
 
SmellySquirrel said:
The passive drops are to the left side of the sink. But the gunshot is on the right side. Gunshot theory does not fit as well.

That could be if he was not centered over the sink when he first came up to it and then he centered himself over the sink bowl But I agree about evidence of him crawling along the floor and I think we should pay more attention to the blood spatter evidence.

IMO
 
His report was not as detailed as I expected to see, but it is accurate and gets its point across. He did not write it for the layman. It is written for those in the medical field that understand the anatomy he is discussing. I'm not surprised that it is hard for some to make the conclusion that the bullet had to pass through the Dura Mater and the brain. He never comes right out and says it until he is asked in court. He does give you all of the data points to make the connection if you understand what he is saying or willing to put the extra effort in to some anatomy study on the side.

I'll will tryi to link a couple of pictures that should help, but I may screw this up. They come Frank Netters's website. He did anatomical drawing/paintings/slides that are considered to be the most accurate. They are also rather easy to see and understand. <a href="http://www.netterimages.com/image/2005.htm"><img src="http://www.netterimages.com/images/vpv/000/000/002/2005-0550x0475.jpg" alt="Illustration of Normal Brain Anatomy as Demonstrated by Computerized Tomography (CT Scanning) from the Netter Collection" height="150" width="150" /></a> On the right, is a CT Scan of a normal brain. The bright white, glowing edge is the skull. There is not as much room between the brain and the edge of the skull. On the left, is Netter's drawing of the skull and the brain at the same level as the scan. Again, not much room between the two structures.

<a href="http://www.netterimages.com/image/2005.htm"><img src="http://www.netterimages.com/images/vpv/000/000/002/2005-0550x0475.jpg" alt="Illustration of Normal Brain Anatomy as Demonstrated by Computerized Tomography (CT Scanning) from the Netter Collection" height="150" width="150" /></a> This image is sagittal plane view of the right hemisphere of the brain and its relation to the skull. The bullet entered the Frontal Bone 3 inches from the crown or the highest point of his skull. It was also 1.5 inches from midline, so it was just outside the middle of his eyebrow, and roughly 1.5 inches above the eyebrow. So where the bullet entered is not viewable to us in the picture. If you feel around along the outside edge of your eyebrow you will find a ridge. The bullet entered within about 0.5 inch of this ridge and 1.5 inches above the brow ridge. Underneath the orange Frontal Lobe, you will see a thin bone with pink nasal tissue under the bone. That is the Ethmoid Bone and represents the midline of the skull, and specifically the inferior aspect of the Cranial Vault. It is through this bone that the bullet re-enters the facial skeleton. The Frontal Bone is considere part of the face, so in order to re-enter the facial skeleton, it had to exit the facial skeleton. All that area from the back side of the Frontal bone to just about where the orange and green meet at the top is the R Anterior Fossa. This Fossa is lined by all three layers you describe. Now when you are sitting and looking at these pictures keep in mind that the bullet is coming toward you and toward the Ethmoid Bone.

Now let's discuss his report appearing to state that the brain was not damaged. Since the Dura Mater lines the entire inside of the skull, once something passes through the anterior skull and transverses the r Anterior Fossa it had to pass through the Dura Mater. It has already went completely through the bone and entered into a different anatomical structure, in this case the R Anterior Fossa, which happens to be stuffed full of the R Anterior Lobe. How does something passe through the skull into a different structure and not pass through the Dura Mater which is glued to the inside of the skull. He does not come right out and say it, but he gave you all the clues to figure it out. The lack of intracranial bleeding is the reason some believe the gunshot was last, after he was essentially dead. Postmortem wounds don't bleed, so if there is no blood in the skull from the gunshot, then it came after he was dead. He does state that there does not appear to be any cerebral damage, but the add-on to that sentence gives the reason that he could not determine the amount of damage to the Cerebrum. The brain was decaying and liquifying, so the path of the bullet could not be accurately determined.

The second sentence is an easy explanation. You did the same thing Molly did. You left off the first sentence of the Internal Examination of the Nervous System. He talk about reflecting the scalp "in the usual fashion revealing the previously describe injuries". This sentence removes the injured area from the discussion of the rest of the nervous system. I know Molly threw out several other sections, but he says the same thing in each one where there were previous injuries described.

Now if you will go to the ME Report: Discuss it here thread the first post by StephanieHartPI, you will see that she transcribed a good portion of the ME testimony. In line 14-16, he clearly states that the bullet did pass through the brain.

I don't know how else to explain this. I agree that he did not say it outright in his report, but the information to figure it out is right there in the report. In court, he was adamant that the bullet did pass through the brain.

I apologize if the pictures did not link correctly, I can't tell if they did until after I hit the reply button.

Captain, again thank you for another detailed and thoughtful response.

Actually, the reason I was pounding on lack of any direct evidence that Travis' brain was injured, as well as lack of any reference to brain injury in Horn's report, was not because I necessarily believe that Travis' brain was untouched by the bullet, but rather to draw attention to the lack of specifics around this point and Horn's lack of detail in his autopsy.

In fact, I do think it likely that the bullet penetrated Travis' right frontal lobe. Indeed, waaaay back in posts #258 and #269 (page 11 of this thread, my very first posts on Websleuths btw!), I argued the scenario in detail, as well as pulled some expert references to support the notion that Travis could very well have defended himself after sustaining a gunshot wound to a frontal lobe. I invite readers to go back to post #269 for more on gunshot wounds to the frontal lobes.

Now, the issue I continue to have is all this faith being heaped on select parts of Horn's testimony and autopsy report. I think we can all agree that his autopsy report did nothing to directly address whether Travis' brain had been penetrated by the bullet (and thus support his being incapacitated, a key point). As you've done above, the thoughtful reader has to go through gymnastics and arm-waving to support even this basic notion. There is also little to directly support a knife-first scenario. Indeed, I would suggest there is contradictory information which weakens the pillar that every gunfirster inevitably points to: lack of hemorrhaging in the brain cavity.

I return to Horn's autopsy report in describing Travis' lungs and the severe stab to the chest:

The lungs weigh 340 grams left and 280 grams right. The upper and lower airways are patent and of normal caliber. The pleural surfaces are smooth and glistening. The parenchyma is autolyzed dark re-purple, exuding moderate amount of blood and intermixed frothy decompositional fluid. There are no areas of induration, consolidation, hemorrhage, or gross scarring. The pulmonary are patent and of normal caliber.

and

A 1 1/2 inch oblique stab wound of the paramidline right chest, with penetration/perforation of the costochondral junction near the sternum at the level of the 3rd and 4th right ribs; the wound extends to a max depth of 3 1/2 inches with penetration of the superior vena cava near the base of the heart, with a small amount of surrounding hemorrhagic in the mediastinal soft tissues and the pericardial sac of the heart.

Doesn't sound like much blood in the lungs or chest cavity. We imagine a stab wound penetrating the vena cava and the right lung would have resulted in a large amount of blood. We would expect Travis' right lung would have had a substantial amount of blood.

Now, as danzin16 kindly pointed out, Horn was questioned about this on the stand (post 1390):

I guess you missed the part of the ME's testimony that said it was possible the lungs were punctured and he couldn't tell because of decomp. I guess you missed the part about how it was possible the knife stabs could have entered so deeply they entered the body cavities but decomp made it difficult to tell.

Based on Horn's testimony, five days of decomposition of Travis' body had a major impact on the level of detail and certainty Horn could ascertain around the wounds and the extent of hemorrhaging. However, everyone knows that this stab wound to the body's largest vein must have caused extensive hemorrhaging. And every knifefirster knows that Travis must have been coughing up blood at the sink.

Now, let's return to every knifefirster's favorite passage from Horn's report:

The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone and the traverses the right anterior fossa, without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury (although examination of the brain tissue is somewhat limited by the decomposed nature of the remains).

So in this famous line, Horn, to his credit, offers a caveat to the reader and to the court: here are my observations (one of which we already agree is inaccurate: lack of cerebral injury!), but understand that the area is extensively decomposed, limiting the certainty of my observations. This is the one time Horn feels compelled to comment on the extent of decomposition in his report. I would say we should probably take Horn at his word: the area was decomposed making it difficult to make an accurate assessment.

Now knifefirsters may parse this further in support of their theory, but the fact of the matter is that Horn himself is cautioning us not to put too much weight on these observations. Given the fact that Horn testifies similarly with respect to the chest injury, and given that the extent of hemorrhaging from the chest wound can't be accurately reported due to extent of decomposition, is it reasonable that we now pick out this one piece of Horn's report, the one piece that Horn himself cautions us about, as the key piece of support for a knife-first scenario?

I would suggest that this evidence, while consistent with a knife-first scenario, is insufficient to rule out a gun-first scenario.

In other words, if Horn were asked in court "Is is possible that the decomposition of the area made it difficult to ascertain with certainty whether Travis was alive when he was shot?"

How do we think Horn would answer?

Dave
 
If JA's initial blow was a surprise stab to his chest that severed the vena cava, then wouldn't TA have died almost instantly? I remember reading somewhere, perhaps in the ME's testimony, that TA would've only survived for seconds after that blow was dealt. In other words, how does a stab to the chest as the initial blow make it any more likely that TA would've been been able to sustain his apparently defensive wounds after the initial blow? Wouldn't TA die even more quickly from the chest wound than from the gunshot wound?

And if JA's initial blow was not the chest wound, then how does TA not overpower JA? At that point he would not have sustained a life threatening injury. Yet JA was never injured. In other words, TA was unable to mount any kind of offensive attack.

No the ME examiner said the stab to the chest is life threatening without medical attention. That he would be able to get up move around and it would take the longest time to die from compared to the other injuries. It would take minutes or longer.
 
Knife-firsters: If you believe JA did not strike the initial blow in the shower (which I find to be an incredibly unlikely scenario given the photographic evidence shows she had spent 7+ minutes luring TA into the vulnerable sitting position, the fact that she almost certainly wanted to contain all of the evidence in the shower, and the timing of the attack as suggested by the bathroom ceiling photo and the first bleeding photo), then how do you think she carried out the attack?

I dont know if we can conclude that JA lured him to that sitting position. Reading from the other JA trial thread apparently a lot of people sit in the shower. I thought it was strange but there were many that do it every time they shower. He may have sat down himself. Again, we just don't know the sequence of events and can't conclude anything as being what without a doubt happened when there is no evidence
 
+1. Many pages back I challenged knifefirsters to lay out a detailed scenario as gunfirsters have done. I did not get much of a response, mostly complaints about how useless such an exercise is, since it is all conjecture. I suspect the real reason is that there are serious deficiencies of common sense required for a knifefirst scenario.

Who wants to be the knifefirst spokesperson? C'mon, step up to the challenge!! :)

Dave

Hmm, Ive seen several good scenarios from knife firsters since you asked. Accounting for bullet trajectory and how he got the sink.
 
I dont know if we can conclude that JA lured him to that sitting position. Reading from the other JA trial thread apparently a lot of people sit in the shower. I thought it was strange but there were many that do it every time they shower. He may have sat down himself. Again, we just don't know the sequence of events and can't conclude anything as being what without a doubt happened when there is no evidence

I have never sat in a shower enclosure in 45 years of adulthood that I can remember.
 
I had posted this on another thread but it may belong here:

wondering if anyone has opinions on the following: (not related to the trial in any way, just to the psychology of Jodi's criminal intent)

I only came to this case a couple of weeks ago as I had been too busy before. I knew a girl named Jodi had killed an ex and was standing trial but knew nothing more.

I read a bunch of blog posts and websites and someone had the theory that because:

  1. TA's throat was slit "ear to ear" which is also stated in the Book of Mormon as being the punishment for one who broke a covenant. (this checks out)
  2. Jodi carried two gas cans yet still did stop for gas as receipts show.
  3. Jodi told the detective, "If Travis were here, he would tell you it wasn't me."
  4. TA's last live picture in the shower is of a man in disbelief of what he is seeing.
  5. JA told detective: There were 2 intruders with ski masks: an aggressive female with a knife and a man who was quiet.

Therefore:
From the above facts, this blogger developed a theory that:
  • Jodi wanted TA dead so she could move on without having to see him marry, become more successful, without her.
    [*]She decided that as she lived in California, if she was careful, no one would suspect her. (dumb)
    [*]She decided to make it look like some Mormon retribution hit (#1 above)

    and probably had donned a ski mask (#4 above)

    and may have even made TA believe there were 2 people to subdue him by calling out to a man who was not present(#s 3 & 5 above)

    and had planned to set fire to the house to destroy evidence (#2 above) but something stopped her. (someone came home next door?)and also she had not anticipated such a struggle, but had envisioned maybe slashing him and shooting him once- did not imagine he would lunge out to the sink and down the hall....

To me, at least this theory hangs together well. Maybe I'm the only one fascinated with this kind of theorizing.

it is compelling all the same.....It makes a certain amount of sense and hangs together logically as a theory.

and of course if this was JA's perfect plan it was an epic fail. ( When it failed, first she attempted to hold to it ( not there) then she attempted to hold to it but with her present, then she gave up and spun out the self-defense.....)
 
I had posted this on another thread but it may belong here:

Hey, there, SMK. I was wondering if you and Nova and the gang would be in here. Good to "see you" again! :rocker:
 
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