Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[geevee]

And this would for sure make it impossible (I know all this are possible) for him to yell "gonna f'ing kill you *****"? Assuming (I know D) the shot came first as JA states could he talk with a bullet in his jaw/cheek?

LOL Good point.

 

[missgulfsouth]

She takes a series of pictures of him in the shower over a period of about 20 minutes. They are all time stamped and dated. They were deleted but the police recovered them.

In the second to last picture, he is seated, the shower door is open, and it looks like the water is turned off. The next picture shows the ceiling above the shower. 62 seconds later there is the next picture which shows him on his back on the floor with blood pouring over his shoulder and her foot and leg next to him.

You didn't know about those?

IMO

I didn't. I don't want to hijack the thread by getting too OT, but are there any ideas why she would take pictures while committing a murder? I know that sadistic serial killers (mostly males) have been known to do that. Just how sick is this chick?

And how are we supposed to believe that it's self defense when she is taking pictures?

 

[molly333]

But it doesn't look that impulsive. Any weapon can be used impulsively to kill, or any weapon can be used in a premeditated fashion to murder. A knife hurts. It is personal. It makes a statement to the victim. So far, everything point to a premeditated trip to AZ. Everything points to premeditated steps being taken to hide her trip and presence in AZ. Circumstantial evidence points to her obtaining a weapon prior to this trip. The same type of weapon was used at some point during the murder of TA. After his death, everything she did and said was a calculated attempt to hide the fact that she was in his apartment at the time he was killed. None of this shows anything impulsive.

She claims she killed him in self-defense. What evidence has she presented to support this claim and counter what JM has presented showing planning and manipulation prior to, during, and after the trip. I think you are worried about nothing at this point. The weapon used does not make the murder more impulsive when everything else clearly shows premeditation and planning.

Why would you premeditate murder with a gun and then use a knife instead? Why would you steal a gun to use a knife?

And, how did she get that gunshot trajectory with a prone man? Lie down behind him?

These are my favorite questions right now.

You say any weapon can be used impulsively to kill. Thats true. But why would she choose the knife to kill with premeditation? Give me her thought process. And, if knife, why not tie him up first, like her favorite video, tied to the bed, or knife him while he was asleep? She had the opportunity to do that.

He really is not vulnerable in that shower to a knife wound. He's curled up like a ball and able to protect his core. She has to come into his space, and he has the muscles to ward her off.

IMO

 

[LaneGirl]

I didn't. I don't want to hijack the thread by getting too OT, but are there any ideas why she would take pictures while committing a murder? I know that sadistic serial killers (mostly males) have been known to do that. Just how sick is this chick?

And how are we supposed to believe that it's self defense when she is taking pictures?

The acutal murder pictures are by accident. In a nutshell dropped camera and it being kicked around during murder took picturtes. She deleted photos and threw camera in the wash. LE was able to retreive some of the deleted photo's. This proved she was there (first story she told she wasn't there, 2nd story intruders "Ninjas") along with her hand bloody hand print.

 

[LaneGirl]

I didn't. I don't want to hijack the thread by getting too OT, but are there any ideas why she would take pictures while committing a murder? I know that sadistic serial killers (mostly males) have been known to do that. Just how sick is this chick?

And how are we supposed to believe that it's self defense when she is taking pictures?

Meet me here and I'll try to answer your questions.

trial day 34: the defense continues it's case in chief #98 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[geevee]

Why would you premeditate murder with a gun and then use a knife instead? Why would you steal a gun to use a knife?

And, how did she get that gunshot trajectory with a prone man? Lie down behind him?

These are my favorite questions right now.

I was a knife-first theorist until I decided to write up a timeline based on the crime scene pics and the camera time stamps, I couldn't find a way that explains the trajectory of the shot as well as most of the scene unless she shoots him first. Once his throat is cut I don't see how she can get his head into a position to shoot him and have the bullet travel where it does, whether or not he could be mobile after the shot, we know he can't be mobile after the neck slashing.

ETA: In the newer pics HLN put on their slide show, there's a small chunk of wall taken out just below where the towel hangs (outside wall of the toilet room), either a bad swing of the knife or maybe the gun went flying and took a piece of drywall with it? There are also 2 pics of the shower stall after fingerprint dust is put on it so you can see where hands touched it, look on the right side where the tile ends outside, looks like fingers dragging down?

 

[molly333]

I didn't. I don't want to hijack the thread by getting too OT, but are there any ideas why she would take pictures while committing a murder? I know that sadistic serial killers (mostly males) have been known to do that. Just how sick is this chick?

And how are we supposed to believe that it's self defense when she is taking pictures?

It's not clear what's going on with the pictures. She says the alive pics of him were for a calven klein cancun buff type photo op. The pictures of her in the middle of killing him look like acts of God to me. But, some think she had the camera in her right hand for the whole 62 seconds.

IMO

 

[molly333]

I didn't. I don't want to hijack the thread by getting too OT, but are there any ideas why she would take pictures while committing a murder? I know that sadistic serial killers (mostly males) have been known to do that. Just how sick is this chick?

And how are we supposed to believe that it's self defense when she is taking pictures?

You better be careful. You're going to lose your entire life, and your brain will slowly be encompassed by a fog...

You will tell children and dogs to, wait! And, husbands will be gone for weeks before you notice.

Leave now, while you still can...

IMO

 

[weather_lady]

well premeditated murder of a 200 pound man in great shape by a 120 pound woman: You steal a gun, drive 1000 miles, and shoot him with the gun.

But, if you are grabbing a knife against this guy it looks like something that was not thought out. It looks more spur of the moment. Maybe even self defense.

Ok I know about all the wounds and so forth, but in the heat of self defense, or fighting for your life, you could go crazy with fear and terror.

I"m worried about the Jury buying this idea if knife first.

Beasley seems worried, too.

IMO

Hopefully JM will remind the jury in closing that even if they believe she shot him first and then "grabbed a knife," she had to have brought that knife with her in anticipation of using it. No knives are known to be missing from TA's house, and none of the knives that were there could be matched to TA's wounds. JA's bull-pucky "I came out of the fog, remember dropping a knife in the dishwasher, and then the fog returned" testimony was a desperate attempt to convince the jury that the knife originated in the house. The hard evidence says that it didn't.

 

[weather_lady]

Why would you premeditate murder with a gun and then use a knife instead? Why would you steal a gun to use a knife?

And, how did she get that gunshot trajectory with a prone man? Lie down behind him?


IMO

I think your first question is one that needs to be asked in either scenario: if she planned to shoot him, why bring the knife? If she planned to stab him, why bring the gun? Maybe the girl just likes to keep her options open. I also wonder if she didn't toy with the idea of committing suicide (either in front of TA, or after killing him, or in the event she was caught), and brought the gun for that purpose.

In any event, she clearly used it. If you're a gun-first theorist, the angle is perfect if he's sitting in the shower and she's standing over him. If you're a knife-firster, then the same angle (and distance, since the ME said the gun was at least 1-2 feet away from TA's head) could be achieved if she dragged him back to the bathroom and fired the shot while standing over his body. His head may have fallen to the side already during the dragging (attached as it was by just a spine and some skin), or she could have pushed it to the side with her foot to get the angle she wanted.

 

[missgulfsouth]

You better be careful. You're going to lose your entire life, and your brain will slowly be encompassed by a fog...

You will tell children and dogs to, wait! And, husbands will be gone for weeks before you notice.

Leave now, while you still can...

IMO

Too funny. Fair to say she's pretty sick, then.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

I think she wanted more than to just kill him, she wanted revenge. I think that's why she had a knife also.

I know he was larger than her, but how would it be if he had soap in his eyes and could not see or react immediately? It would not be that difficult to squirt a bottle of dish liquid at someone who is already busy showering.

 

[CGW]

Hopefully JM will remind the jury in closing that even if they believe she shot him first and then "grabbed a knife," she had to have brought that knife with her in anticipation of using it. No knives are known to be missing from TA's house, and none of the knives that were there could be matched to TA's wounds. JA's bull-pucky "I came out of the fog, remember dropping a knife in the dishwasher, and then the fog returned" testimony was a desperate attempt to convince the jury that the knife originated in the house. The hard evidence says that it didn't.

I think she had a knife she carried with her (in car or purse). It's what she used to slash the car tires mulitple occassions. And it's what she used to slash TA...IMO. It was her back up plan once the gun jammed after the first shot (my theory). I think she ran to the bedroom to retrieve the knife from her purse after gun jammed. She "met" TA in the hallway and finished him off as he was trying to get away or get to phone after first staggering out of shower to the sink first. I think the knife and gun were disposed of together eitehr in the dessert or dumpster. (These are my theories and opinions)

 

[Captain86]

Why would you premeditate murder with a gun and then use a knife instead? Why would you steal a gun to use a knife?

And, how did she get that gunshot trajectory with a prone man? Lie down behind him?

These are my favorite questions right now.

You say any weapon can be used impulsively to kill. Thats true. But why would she choose the knife to kill with premeditation? Give me her thought process. And, if knife, why not tie him up first, like her favorite video, tied to the bed, or knife him while he was asleep? She had the opportunity to do that.

He really is not vulnerable in that shower to a knife wound. He's curled up like a ball and able to protect his core. She has to come into his space, and he has the muscles to ward her off.

IMO

Who has said that she only premeditated the murder with a gun? The knife used on TA did not match any of the knives in his apartment and no knives were missing from the apartment. This leads to the conclusion that she also brought the knife into the home with her.

The trajectory could be from either prone, supine, side lying, or sitting. All we can definitely say about it is that she was not floating the air over top of him. If he is lying on the floor with his face turned to the right, the trajectory is not real hard to see. If he is sitting in a reclined position, the trajectory is just as possible. The trajectory is roughly 20 degrees to the right from true vertical. That would not be an easy angle for her if he was sitting upright in the shower while still maintaining the minimum 2ft horizontal distance from him. If he was slumped down (butt further from the wall) in the shower, it would become easier. With him on the ground, he would either have to be on his left side or have his head rotated right. This would expose the area from midline of the brow to the lateral ridge of the Frontal Bone (the area where the bullet entered the skull). With him on the ground, she has the freedom of movement to be at any angle when the shot was fired. Stepping back to 3-4ft makes the angle rather easy to see. The trajectory can really be reproduced with him in just about any position. Him sitting upright would be somewhat more difficult.

I cannot give you her thought process anymore than you can give me her thought process. I don't think like her. Plenty of people have chosen a knife for a pre-planned murder. She has already stated the he refused the offer to be tied up, so that was not a real option. I can come up with multiple options that are better than killing him in his bathroom, but I didn't pick the place or the method, so I can't tell you why she did it. But I can tell that she did use both a gun and a knife on him, and she killed him with a knife.

So far, I've only seen the gun firsters (yeah really, firsters is a real word. it just looks and sounds so weird) proposing the stabbing started in the shower. I don't believe I have read one proposed knife first opinion where she started stabbing him in the shower. But, I do agree with you that his vital organs were better protected while sitting in the shower. Now, his hairline might have been exposed to a cut while sitting in the shower. I don't think anything happened in the shower be it with gun or knife.

 

[molly333]

Who has said that she only premeditated the murder with a gun?

Juan Martinez

Stepping back to 3-4ft makes the angle rather easy to see. The trajectory can really be reproduced with him in just about any position.

I just can't see this with him lying down. The most likely gunshot in that case would be a bullet through the head. This is more like a 'missed shot.' She wouldn't have made this shot on purpose. And, where, in that little space, is she going to get 3 or 4 feet away from him?

I don't think anything happened in the shower be it with gun or knife.

The reason we do think it started in the shower is that strange last picture of him, the picture before it where he looks horrified, the ceiling picture after it, and 62 seconds later the picture of him on his back on the floor.

Not often you have video and time stamps of murder.

IMO

 

[sacrablue]

Who has said that she only premeditated the murder with a gun? The knife used on TA did not match any of the knives in his apartment and no knives were missing from the apartment. This leads to the conclusion that she also brought the knife into the home with her.

The trajectory could be from either prone, supine, side lying, or sitting. All we can definitely say about it is that she was not floating the air over top of him. If he is lying on the floor with his face turned to the right, the trajectory is not real hard to see. If he is sitting in a reclined position, the trajectory is just as possible. The trajectory is roughly 20 degrees to the right from true vertical. That would not be an easy angle for her if he was sitting upright in the shower while still maintaining the minimum 2ft horizontal distance from him. If he was slumped down (butt further from the wall) in the shower, it would become easier. With him on the ground, he would either have to be on his left side or have his head rotated right. This would expose the area from midline of the brow to the lateral ridge of the Frontal Bone (the area where the bullet entered the skull). With him on the ground, she has the freedom of movement to be at any angle when the shot was fired. Stepping back to 3-4ft makes the angle rather easy to see. The trajectory can really be reproduced with him in just about any position. Him sitting upright would be somewhat more difficult.

I cannot give you her thought process anymore than you can give me her thought process. I don't think like her. Plenty of people have chosen a knife for a pre-planned murder. She has already stated the he refused the offer to be tied up, so that was not a real option. I can come up with multiple options that are better than killing him in his bathroom, but I didn't pick the place or the method, so I can't tell you why she did it. But I can tell that she did use both a gun and a knife on him, and she killed him with a knife.

So far, I've only seen the gun firsters (yeah really, firsters is a real word. it just looks and sounds so weird) proposing the stabbing started in the shower. I don't believe I have read one proposed knife first opinion where she started stabbing him in the shower. But, I do agree with you that his vital organs were better protected while sitting in the shower. Now, his hairline might have been exposed to a cut while sitting in the shower. I don't think anything happened in the shower be it with gun or knife.

So you are saying that Travis stepped out of the shower enclosure before trouble started. This would be really taking a chance with only a knife, with a gun maybe.

 

[sacrablue]

The only thing in my mind that would not suprise me would be JA suffers from Dissociative Identity Disorder. DID fits her like a glove and would explain her bizarre behavior. Who knows what happened to JA as a child. Severe sexual, psychological trauma in childhood, insufficient childhood nurturing. All these things can surface. What we see is an evil monster. I would be willing to bet a dollar her brain scan (MRI) would not be normal.
Now I here she was threatened with a knife as a youngster. If JA had/has DID, I would be inclined to with the kife first theory.

 

[danzn16]

The video looks good until I saw the 'speculated' word. Still making noises. I am trying to understand how a person who is dead with his throat cut makes noises. Somebody help me with this please?

If you look up the video of a prisoner of war beheaded in Iraq you can hear the noises that someone makes while their throat is slit. It is disgusting, I actually recommend you never to watch this because its the most awful thing I've ever seen. This man was actually very calm because he knew it was going to happen and they had him say good bye to his family before it. So he would probably be making less noise than TA would because TA would obviously not have already accepted his fate in such a fast attack. The POW only stopped making noise once his spinal cord was cut and he was beheaded. They make noises because blood gets into the airways. They're going to continue to try to breath but the trachea is cut so it makes noise.

 

[danzn16]

Ok, like a massive stroke. Takes seconds to lose consciousness. So no more breathing and no more vocal activity. The brain and heart die from no oxygen. So that leaves with air in the lungs which probably escapes when win pipe is severed.
Were both Carotid arteries cut?

You still can breathe when you lose consciousness. You only stop after death which the doc said would take minutes. It's possible JA couldn't take the sound anymore.

 

[danzn16]

The acutal murder pictures are by accident. In a nutshell dropped camera and it being kicked around during murder took picturtes. She deleted photos and threw camera in the wash. LE was able to retreive some of the deleted photo's. This proved she was there (first story she told she wasn't there, 2nd story intruders "Ninjas") along with her hand bloody hand print.

I wonder how different this case would be if JA would have taken that camera with her?