Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

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What do you believe were the sequence of events?

  • Travis was stabbed, his throat slashed, and then he was shot

    Votes: 464 71.2%
  • Travis was shot and then he was stabbed and his throat was slashed

    Votes: 180 27.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 8 1.2%

  • Total voters
    652
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after reading it all i still cant buy the premiditated allegation. i hope mr martinez will be able to bring it home for us at closing

Text messages by TA calling JA evil, crazy etc. days later...
.25 stolen from granparents house (same caliber TA shot with)
2 gas cans borrowed from xbf
1 gas can purchased from walmart (not returned)
receipts for that trip except for in AZ (no trace of her being in AZ or so she thought until she ran out of money and used credit card, JM busted her)

If your not buying any of this maybe JM won't be able to bring it home for you. He has for me, rebuttle and closing will just wrap it in a bow - for me:).
 
Wasn't me,

I kind of like your idea about the duct tape because it's another way to disable him.

And used duct tape was at the crime scene.

But it hasn't been mentioned at trial. And, usually duct tape will leave a residue. So, you might be right, but no one is doing anything about it. The Jurors might come up with it on their own.

Sure, find me a serial killer that takes on victims twice his size and strength with a knife. I'd be interested.

Wournos used a gun.

I was thinking, JM's last case where he put a woman on death row for killing her husband was kind of similar to this. She used multiple weapons. It was a messy crime scene. But one big difference,-- he was a disabled man, dying of cancer. And, I think she poisoned him before she started physically attacking him.

I hope he doesn't get overconfident because of that case.

Usually messy crime scenes mean it is a totally impulsive act or a disorganized killer. Or something went wrong.

IMO
 
after reading it all i still cant buy the premiditated allegation. i hope mr martinez will be able to bring it home for us at closing

Huh? The evidence for premeditation is overwhelming. You believe in "freak coincidences"?
 
Captain, I appreciate your thoughtful response.

In my mind you are severely over-interpreting the autopsy report. Let's consider the main point of your argument:

Despite what some on here would have you believe. It is impossible for an object to transverse the Anterior Fossa, in the manner this bullet did, without hitting the Frontal Lobe. He did not specify this because it isn't necessary. Basic anatomy should lead someone reading his report to the very same conclusion.

Ok, let's look at some anatomy. In fact, between the skull and brain are membranes and fluid-filled spaces that take up volume (dura mater, blood-filled dural space, pia mater, and subarachnoid space). To illustrate, I attach three anatomy diagrams below. As you can see, there IS space where the bullet could have perforated the anterior fossa without hitting the brain.

Having said that, Horn's report provides inadequate detail to indicate that the penetration was sufficiently posterior to have penetrated the brain. In fact, everything Horn says in his report indicates that the brain was NOT penetrated. There are two statements in his autopsy report that directly speak to this:

The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull ... and traverses the right anterior fossa, without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury.

And:

The 1525-gram brain is covered by thin, clear, delicate leptomeninges. The dura mater and falx cerebri are intact.... Multiple serial sections of autolyzed brain do not reveal the presence of grossly apparent trauma, foreign bodies, or previously existing natural disease.

How do you penetrate the brain without penetrating the dura mater?

In light of the above information, it makes no sense that Horn would have assumed that anyone with any basic knowledge of anatomy reading the report would automatically know that the brain was penetrated. Horn is a Medical Examiner, and it is his job to identify injuries that could have significance in a murder trial. Any reasonable person would say that a bullet through the brain would be significant information to clearly bring forward in an autopsy report because the report could factor heavily in a criminal proceeding.

Yet Horn is silent on this in his report. Why? Because there was simply no evidence that the brain was penetrated.

Dave

His report was not as detailed as I expected to see, but it is accurate and gets its point across. He did not write it for the layman. It is written for those in the medical field that understand the anatomy he is discussing. I'm not surprised that it is hard for some to make the conclusion that the bullet had to pass through the Dura Mater and the brain. He never comes right out and says it until he is asked in court. He does give you all of the data points to make the connection if you understand what he is saying or willing to put the extra effort in to some anatomy study on the side.

I'll will tryi to link a couple of pictures that should help, but I may screw this up. They come Frank Netters's website. He did anatomical drawing/paintings/slides that are considered to be the most accurate. They are also rather easy to see and understand. <a href="http://www.netterimages.com/image/2005.htm"><img src="http://www.netterimages.com/images/vpv/000/000/002/2005-0550x0475.jpg" alt="Illustration of Normal Brain Anatomy as Demonstrated by Computerized Tomography (CT Scanning) from the Netter Collection" height="150" width="150" /></a> On the right, is a CT Scan of a normal brain. The bright white, glowing edge is the skull. There is not as much room between the brain and the edge of the skull. On the left, is Netter's drawing of the skull and the brain at the same level as the scan. Again, not much room between the two structures.

<a href="http://www.netterimages.com/image/2005.htm"><img src="http://www.netterimages.com/images/vpv/000/000/002/2005-0550x0475.jpg" alt="Illustration of Normal Brain Anatomy as Demonstrated by Computerized Tomography (CT Scanning) from the Netter Collection" height="150" width="150" /></a> This image is sagittal plane view of the right hemisphere of the brain and its relation to the skull. The bullet entered the Frontal Bone 3 inches from the crown or the highest point of his skull. It was also 1.5 inches from midline, so it was just outside the middle of his eyebrow, and roughly 1.5 inches above the eyebrow. So where the bullet entered is not viewable to us in the picture. If you feel around along the outside edge of your eyebrow you will find a ridge. The bullet entered within about 0.5 inch of this ridge and 1.5 inches above the brow ridge. Underneath the orange Frontal Lobe, you will see a thin bone with pink nasal tissue under the bone. That is the Ethmoid Bone and represents the midline of the skull, and specifically the inferior aspect of the Cranial Vault. It is through this bone that the bullet re-enters the facial skeleton. The Frontal Bone is considere part of the face, so in order to re-enter the facial skeleton, it had to exit the facial skeleton. All that area from the back side of the Frontal bone to just about where the orange and green meet at the top is the R Anterior Fossa. This Fossa is lined by all three layers you describe. Now when you are sitting and looking at these pictures keep in mind that the bullet is coming toward you and toward the Ethmoid Bone.

Now let's discuss his report appearing to state that the brain was not damaged. Since the Dura Mater lines the entire inside of the skull, once something passes through the anterior skull and transverses the r Anterior Fossa it had to pass through the Dura Mater. It has already went completely through the bone and entered into a different anatomical structure, in this case the R Anterior Fossa, which happens to be stuffed full of the R Anterior Lobe. How does something passe through the skull into a different structure and not pass through the Dura Mater which is glued to the inside of the skull. He does not come right out and say it, but he gave you all the clues to figure it out. The lack of intracranial bleeding is the reason some believe the gunshot was last, after he was essentially dead. Postmortem wounds don't bleed, so if there is no blood in the skull from the gunshot, then it came after he was dead. He does state that there does not appear to be any cerebral damage, but the add-on to that sentence gives the reason that he could not determine the amount of damage to the Cerebrum. The brain was decaying and liquifying, so the path of the bullet could not be accurately determined.

The second sentence is an easy explanation. You did the same thing Molly did. You left off the first sentence of the Internal Examination of the Nervous System. He talk about reflecting the scalp "in the usual fashion revealing the previously describe injuries". This sentence removes the injured area from the discussion of the rest of the nervous system. I know Molly threw out several other sections, but he says the same thing in each one where there were previous injuries described.

Now if you will go to the ME Report: Discuss it here thread the first post by StephanieHartPI, you will see that she transcribed a good portion of the ME testimony. In line 14-16, he clearly states that the bullet did pass through the brain.

I don't know how else to explain this. I agree that he did not say it outright in his report, but the information to figure it out is right there in the report. In court, he was adamant that the bullet did pass through the brain.

I apologize if the pictures did not link correctly, I can't tell if they did until after I hit the reply button.
 
Text messages by TA calling JA evil, crazy etc. days later...
.25 stolen from granparents house (same caliber TA shot with)
2 gas cans borrowed from xbf
1 gas can purchased from walmart (not returned)
receipts for that trip except for in AZ (no trace of her being in AZ or so she thought until she ran out of money and used credit card, JM busted her)

If your not buying any of this maybe JM won't be able to bring it home for you. He has for me, rebuttle and closing will just wrap it in a bow - for me:).

You're missing the second biggest piece of evidence for premed, almost just as damning as the 25 auto.

Her cell phone being turned off for 18 hours, turning off in SoCal and turning on again at the Nevada border, 8 miles away from Hoover Dam. Ensuring no cell phone activity near Mesa where the murder took place.

Also, Jodi never used a credit card in Arizona.
 
Those are all good points and I don't deny that TA's ultimate path to the sink and eventually down the hallway can be explained in a knife-first scenario. I just believe they are better explained by a gun-first scenario in which JA left the bathroom and returned with a knife.

There's also some evidence I don't think we've discussed, that I'll get to below.

Also, I cannot get around the fact that I believe JA would've chosen to use a gun when she approached TA in the shower, believing a gunshot to the head would be instantly fatal and all of the evidence would be contained to the shower area.

I think we should consider the physical evidence first before trying see inside her head. I think we can only try to guess about her mental state based on what the evidence says she did, rather than trying to make assumptions of her mental state to form conclusions about what she did. It seems to me that much of the gunfirst theorists are using their notion of what she would do as their evidence for what happened rather than first looking to the forensic evidence.

But as to why a knife, I think there's a simple reason one would choose a knife over a gun, especially in this case. It appears Jodi killed him out of anger and jealousy. She's not a trained assassin trying to execute the most effective kill, she's a scorned lover exacting vengeance. She's someone known to have slashed tires as revenge. She doesn't mind getting her hands dirty. It's easy to see how murder by knife would be very appealing to someone like that. The gun may have been also brought along because she was worried she might not pull it off, so had backup just in case she got in trouble. That's all speculation of course, but all that's necessary is to be able to see a plausible scenario for her actions. We don't need to prove her motivations.

With regard to TA's eventual move down the hallway, he might've elected that route based on JA returning to the bathroom via the closet.

There's some other evidence that you should consider. There was blood stains found on the toilet and on the door jamb to that room. The blood stain witness said it would have come from impact on a blood source at about the same height as the blood. The stains were about a foot above the floor and lower. The toilet is to the right of the shower, facing the shower. So, this would indicate that Travis after leaving the shower may have been on the ground crawling while getting stabbed. Yet, your theory says Jodi didn't attack him with the knife until after he was at the sink.

See the testimony here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLfabn2US8U#t=69m20s

If you watch further, she talks about heavy blood staining under the bathmat, which indicates a lot of blood was spilled in the area in front of the tub (could be from the chest wound). Another large stain is in front of the toilet room door area, plus more impact stains on the wall outside the toilet, and more stains in the scales area at the southern end of the bathroom. These altogether indicate the path taken by Travis. After leaving the shower, he moved to his left and clockwise till he reached the sink. He was leaving a bloody trail with multiple impact stains, which would only make sense if he was being stabbed rather than had only a single gunshot wound.

Perhaps a bigger problem for the gunfirst theory is the blood stain pattern on the front ledge of the sink. They look like blood swipes from two hands placed there. Why were his hands bloody? Most likely from defensive wounds from trying to grab the knife. Yet, you believe she hadn't stabbed him yet by this point. Why would he have bloody hands if he was only shot till then? You may say he grabbed his head with both hands, but I think we can agree defensive wounds are a more likely cause.

The stains on the sink also show some passive blood drops to the left of the sink bowl. Travis had a knife wound to the left front side of his head above the hairline. But the gunshot was on the right side of his head.

The more you look at the evidence, the more it fits a knife first scenario.
 
You're missing the second biggest piece of evidence for premed, almost just as damning as the 25 auto.

Her cell phone being turned off for 18 hours, turning off in SoCal and turning on again at the Nevada border, 8 miles away from Hoover Dam. Ensuring no cell phone activity near Mesa where the murder took place.

Also, Jodi never used a credit card in Arizona.

Jodi never called Travis while she was in AZ either. Her last call to him, she was still in Pasadena. She didn't call him again until she was practically out of AZ to leave him a message after she knew he was dead. She talked to him--or tried to contact him at least--in the wee hours of June 2nd to the point where I don't see how she slept. She called him again during that day. She called him while she was down in Pas up till 8:42pm, was it? Then she doesn't attempt to call him again.

Why? Her phone magically ran out of battery and lost charger after her last call to Travis? Really? And magically, in her "fog," she can use the phone again to leave him a calculated message? Really?
 
Now if you will go to the ME Report: Discuss it here thread the first post by StephanieHartPI, you will see that she transcribed a good portion of the ME testimony. In line 14-16, he clearly states that the bullet did pass through the brain.

I don't know how else to explain this. I agree that he did not say it outright in his report, but the information to figure it out is right there in the report. In court, he was adamant that the bullet did pass through the brain.

Yes, even if someone is confused by the report, there is no reason to be confused after seeing his testimony.

Curious, Captai86, are you a medical professional?
 
Wasn't me,

I kind of like your idea about the duct tape because it's another way to disable him.

And used duct tape was at the crime scene.

But it hasn't been mentioned at trial. And, usually duct tape will leave a residue. So, you might be right, but no one is doing anything about it. The Jurors might come up with it on their own.

Sure, find me a serial killer that takes on victims twice his size and strength with a knife. I'd be interested.

Wournos used a gun.

I was thinking, JM's last case where he put a woman on death row for killing her husband was kind of similar to this. She used multiple weapons. It was a messy crime scene. But one big difference,-- he was a disabled man, dying of cancer. And, I think she poisoned him before she started physically attacking him.

I hope he doesn't get overconfident because of that case.

Usually messy crime scenes mean it is a totally impulsive act or a disorganized killer. Or something went wrong.

IMO

I'll see if I can look up some.

I just really think would be remiss to think the size of a perp and a victim matter--even in a knife fight. Again, think stamina, agility, endurance, and not the "perceived" idea that bigger means stronger, more clever, cunning, quick, etc. It doesn't.

This isn't a serial killer, but it's a woman who was being attacked by a man. She stabbed him only once in the chest and killed him. Travis got stabbed 3 times in the chest.

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/crime/woman-stabbed-man-to-death-with-kitchen-knife-1.1156774

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/aug/13/nation/la-na-nn-woman-fiance-stabbing-wedding-day-20120813

This wife had a hatchet and was convicted of premeditated murder of husband:
Nancy Seaman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Well, we are not talking about brain swelling prior to the shot, are we? Do you really know the volume of space between the bone and the brain at the particular site of the bullet damage? Well even if you studied anatomy, you couldn't, because none of us know the exact site of the fossa penetration based on the minimal description Horn presented in the autopsy report.

The fact of the matter is you continue to ignore the complete absence of anything in the report that indicates the brain was penetrated by the bullet. And, worse, you choose to ignore the information Horn wrote that suggests there WAS no brain penetration.

Let us at least all agree that the autopsy report represents a primary, objective source of forensic information. This information was recorded shortly after the murder before any potential for politics and influence to possibly lead Horn to spin the findings toward one preferred scenario or another.

So, really, WHO is doing all the assuming??? :facepalm:

Dave

We do know where it enteedr the skull, and we know where it ended. We also know that it passed through the Ethmoid Bone at midline at the bottom of the Cranial Vault, so we can make a pretty accurate guess.

The trajectory from the first two points of data, the entry wound and the midline re-entry wound, indicates the bullet lodged in the back part of the jaw near the TMJ area, or where the Maxilla and Mandible meet. This is an area that can be palpated easily and something like a bullet being in this area would be easy to find through palpation. This path would lead to the brain being involved, just like he stated on the witness stand.
 
I don't know how else to explain this. I agree that he did not say it outright in his report, but the information to figure it out is right there in the report. In court, he was adamant that the bullet did pass through the brain.

I agree with this. To me, the issue is not whether the bullet passed through the brain, but whether the ME's conclusion that TA could not have sustained the apparent defensive injuries to his hands after suffering the gunshot wound is an infallible conclusion. I don't think it is.
 
Jodi never called Travis while she was in AZ either. Her last call to him, she was still in Pasadena. She didn't call him again until she was practically out of AZ to leave him a message after she knew he was dead. She talked to him--or tried to contact him at least--in the wee hours of June 2nd to the point where I don't see how she slept. She called him again during that day. She called him while she was down in Pas up till 8:42pm, was it? Then she doesn't attempt to call him again.

Why? Her phone magically ran out of battery and lost charger after her last call to Travis? Really? And magically, in her "fog," she can use the phone again to leave him a calculated message? Really?

Indeed. The voice mail message she left is another piece of evidence for premed. It shows her awareness of the missing time and how that affected her cell phone alibi's credibility. So just hours after his death she attempts to cover it up, telling Travis, "My cell phone died and I got lost driving miles in the wrong direction". Hardly the actions of someone in a "fog" but rather someone extremely focused and determined to get away with murder.
 
I agree with this. To me, the issue is not whether the bullet passed through the brain, but whether the ME's conclusion that TA could not have sustained the apparent defensive injuries to his hands after suffering the gunshot wound is an infallible conclusion. I don't think it is.

I believe the bullet passed through the brain and I believe that he was able to stand up and put up a feeble defense for a brief time. It is not impossible like the ME asserted. I've read case studies and other personal accounts of people being hit with worse headshots (that penetrated brain) and still maintaining consciousness and mobility.
 
You're missing the second biggest piece of evidence for premed, almost just as damning as the 25 auto.

Her cell phone being turned off for 18 hours, turning off in SoCal and turning on again at the Nevada border, 8 miles away from Hoover Dam. Ensuring no cell phone activity near Mesa where the murder took place.

Also, Jodi never used a credit card in Arizona.

BBM - I meant she used a credit card to fill up 3 gas cans in SLC. So busted on the three gas cans.

I'm sure I missed a bunch of stuff but the turning off the cell is a biggie!
 
Take another look at that sink. The trail of blood at front-left was from a profuse source. C'mon, get real. That was no superficial neck or scalp wound.

This was from a gunshot wound.

Yet the gunshot was on the right side of his head, but the blood is to the left. Scalp wounds do bleed a lot even if not deep. Anyone who's had their head injured could tell you that. They're a lot bloodier than you'd think from the wound size. The head is very vascular.

Ever seen pictures from an Ashura festival?

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...0&bih=542&sei=TJtKUcb9M-qc2QWfn4CABQ&tbm=isch
 
There's some other evidence that you should consider. There was blood stains found on the toilet and on the door jamb to that room. The blood stain witness said it would have come from impact on a blood source at about the same height as the blood. The stains were about a foot above the floor and lower. The toilet is to the right of the shower, facing the shower. So, this would indicate that Travis after leaving the shower may have been on the ground crawling while getting stabbed. Yet, your theory says Jodi didn't attack him with the knife until after he was at the sink.

See the testimony here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLfabn2US8U#t=69m20s

If you watch further, she talks about heavy blood staining under the bathmat, which indicates a lot of blood was spilled in the area in front of the tub (could be from the chest wound). Another large stain is in front of the toilet room door area, plus more impact stains on the wall outside the toilet, and more stains in the scales area at the southern end of the bathroom. These altogether indicate the path taken by Travis. After leaving the shower, he moved to his left and clockwise till he reached the sink. He was leaving a bloody trail with multiple impact stains, which would only make sense if he was being stabbed rather than had only a single gunshot wound.

Yes, the blood spatter is something we haven't really discussed in detail yet. I reviewed the testimony of the blood spatter expert. I was hoping to find something in the blood spatter evidence that would, as you indicated, provide more information about the path TA took after he left the shower. Unfortunately, I didn't find it. Almost all of the blood spatter evidence on the floor was destroyed by water. Yes, there was a spatter stain in the toilet area that might have been caused by an impact of the knife on TA while he was crawling, but that evidence does not in any way change my theory that TA moved over to the sink area while JA was retrieving the knife. It only shows that TA might've fallen while being stabbed and before attempting to escape down the hallway.

Perhaps a bigger problem for the gunfirst theory is the blood stain pattern on the front ledge of the sink. They look like blood swipes from two hands placed there. Why were his hands bloody? Most likely from defensive wounds from trying to grab the knife. Yet, you believe she hadn't stabbed him yet by this point. Why would he have bloody hands if he was only shot till then? You may say he grabbed his head with both hands, but I think we can agree defensive wounds are a more likely cause.

The stains on the sink also show some passive blood drops to the left of the sink bowl. Travis had a knife wound to the left front side of his head above the hairline. But the gunshot was on the right side of his head.

The more you look at the evidence, the more it fits a knife first scenario.

I couldn't disagree more. In fact, after reviewing the testimony of the blood spatter expert, I believe the blood spatter evidence around the sink provides strong supporting evidence for my theory.

The evidence shows that TA was not only nearly completely upright when he expirated into the mirror, but he was also leaning almost all of the way over the sink as evidenced by the passive blood drops from around his head into the sink. Why would TA be standing over the sink like that if JA was right there, hacking and slashing away at him with a knife?

The bloody smearing around the sink does not indicate in any way that TA had suffered defensive wounds to his hands already. It merely shows that there was blood around the sink and someone moved something (presumably their hands) through the blood.
 
But as to why a knife, I think there's a simple reason one would choose a knife over a gun, especially in this case. It appears Jodi killed him out of anger and jealousy. She's not a trained assassin trying to execute the most effective kill, she's a scorned lover exacting vengeance. She's someone known to have slashed tires as revenge. She doesn't mind getting her hands dirty. It's easy to see how murder by knife would be very appealing to someone like that. The gun may have been also brought along because she was worried she might not pull it off, so had backup just in case she got in trouble. That's all speculation of course, but all that's necessary is to be able to see a plausible scenario for her actions. We don't need to prove her motivations.

I understand your point, but all of the other evidence in this case shows that JA was trying to hide her involvement in the crime. To attack with a knife would be to risk being discovered. Above all else, JA did not want to be discovered. She had to have known that firing the gun at TA's head would give her the best chance of leaving the state of Arizona undetected.
 
I understand your point, but all of the other evidence in this case shows that JA was trying to hide her involvement in the crime. To attack with a knife would be to risk being discovered. Above all else, JA did not want to be discovered. She had to have known that firing the gun at TA's head would give her the best chance of leaving the state of Arizona undetected.

Not if there's a stolen gun a week earlier at her grandparents' house! She did care about getting caught, but she had no clue how to go about doing that. She cared more about killing him than about making a good plan.
 
Almost all of the blood spatter evidence on the floor was destroyed by water.

Not the evidence I was referring to.

Yes, there was a spatter stain in the toilet area that might have been caused by an impact of the knife on TA while he was crawling, but that evidence does not in any way change my theory that TA moved over to the sink area while JA was retrieving the knife. It only shows that TA might've fallen before attempting to escape down the hallway

Explain how a fall would produce that blood spatter pattern in the toilet room? Why would he be going to the left at all if she left the room? A knife attack explains why very well.

And how about the impact spatter outside the room on the wall? And why was there a lot of blood under the bath mat? Your response is glossing over all this.

I couldn't disagree more. In fact, after reviewing the testimony of the blood spatter expert, I believe the blood spatter evidence around the sink provides strong supporting evidence for my theory.

The evidence shows that TA was not only nearly completely upright when he expirated into the mirror, but he was also leaning his almost all of the way over the sink as evidenced by the passive blood drops from around his head into the sink.
The passive drops are to the left side of the sink. But the gunshot is on the right side. Gunshot theory does not fit as well.

Why would TA be standing over the sink like that if JA was right there, hacking and slashing away at him with a knife?

He was stopping or slowing in lots of places along his path according the spatter (when blood would pool). He had a hard time moving. Someone was in his way and he's losing lots of blood.

The bloody smearing around the sink does not indicate in any way that TA had suffered defensive wounds to his hands already. It merely shows that there was blood around the sink and someone moved something (presumably their hands) through the blood.

This is another handwave. Why would there be blood at the front of the sink? The blood drops and expiration are to the left. There's a conspicuous lack of blood on the right side if he had been shot to the right forehead. He would be losing a lot of blood through that wound.

Knife-first fits much more of the evidence than gun-first does.
 
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