Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[wasnt_me]

I don't think that the use of a knife suggests "spur of the moment" any more than if she had shot him first. Both items are deadly weapons. In my own city last week, a woman was kidnapped from a shopping mall and stabbed to death by a man on house arrest who had removed his tracking ankle cuff. Clearly, he removed it with the intention to go commit a crime. How does the fact that he used a knife rather than a gun diminish the pre-meditated nature of the murder that followed or suggest that the woman "attacked" him and that he was just defending himself, when all of the rest of the evidence, viewed together, shows that the killing was part of a plan?

Ironically, Jodi is saying that she shot him first "spur of the moment." Since that's the basis of her case, "the gun just went off," then the gun shot and the knife are both on the same foot (if each can be deemed spur of the moment).

I had a similiar illustration as yours. In mine, I said Jodi brought poison, got caught poisoning him and wound up stabbing him. So does the stabbing negate premeditation to poison him?

 

[wasnt_me]

I might agree with you about the swipe but the bullet casing is right there in front of the swipe on a pool of blood (which one would think she'd remove along with weapons), and nothing in that sink area had been touched clean-up-wise, water on the floor is about the only thing she did and I think that started accidentally with water from the shower coming out (maybe even the sponge fell down and blocked the drain).

Something else about the sink pic, I found one that shows it with all other items removed (soap bottle, toiletries, etc.) but that thing that was on the right of the sink is still in the picture - what is that thing? In every shot, it gets moved around but it's always there in every pic I've seen but haven't seen an evidence number on it. Intriguing.

I think they have to be swipe marks with a rag or towel. They look to straight and purposeful, as if she did really quick straight swipes. I mop the floor that way with a sponge mop. One long wipe down, and push it back the exact way or as close as possible. People are looking for a reason that the gun casing could fall on the blood later--this might be how. She didn't even see it and she kicked it while cleaning what was a bigger priority to her--her fingerprints on the wall.

Jodi cleaned up. That's how all the towels and sheets wound up in the washer. What do you think she used the bloody towels for if not clean up?

The water on the floor, maybe she used the towels to try to wipe up some blood off the floor, got overwhelmed and abandoned the idea.

Just theories. I like fleshing them out with you. It's helping shape the crime scene for me in a way I haven't seen in court. The pics you refer to are on your Geevee's media?

 

[gitana1]

In your scenario, has Travis already made it to the hallway? Are you saying it took 15 to 20 seconds to put all the blood all over the bathroom and the hallway and slit his throat in the hallway?

No. In that scenario, he is still at the sink. And it's really 29 seconds, more if we count from before the shot when the camera was moving, which could have been done by Travis if the camera was on the bathroom counter and he caused it to fling up as he lurched to the sink. Then you actually have 2 minutes and forty eight seconds after retrieving the knife from downstairs.

But let's say it's only 29 seconds. I acted it out using the stopwatch on my phone, accounting for movement and some struggle. It's totally possible.

In any event, I don't know that jodi ran downstairs to grab a knife. She could have grabbed one from upstairs somewhere. Which gives her even more time.

But these are just possibilities. I am just explaining how it was possible that jodi did not have a knife at hand which you seemed to think was impossible. I actually think it is more than likely that she had a knife very close by, just in case or for another reason.

 

[wasnt_me]

If Jodi was standing outside shower and at least 2 foot away how did the bullet travel in a downward path. Her hand would have been level with his head standing 2 foot away. They only way the bullet would have traveled downward is for her to be standing right next to him while he was sitting in the shower. Travis was sitting on the shower floor facing south (her left) with the shower door open also to her left and she was 2 foot or more away. She would have had to been standing on a ladder?????? The farther away she was the more the bullet path would have risen and from 2 or more feet away the bullet path would have been straighter and not downward and have ended up in a completely different place in his brain. jmo

The gun shot in the shower is missing significant hemorrhaging, speckling (right?), and spatter, isn't it? if she shot him by the shower door, would there be blood spatter on the shower door? At least on the metal where the door opens and closes?

 

[Captain86]

That's not what I was saying, although that could work for me, too. I'm trying to look at it the way a Jury would, not a lawyer.

What I'm saying is that if you try to prove a circumstantial case with the use of a gun and she doesn't use a gun to kill him, than you have not proved her plan at all.

The fact that she kills him with a knife proves she never planned to kill him with a gun, --so there goes your circumstantial case down the toilet.

Otherwise, you have to prove or at least give strong evidence why she would have changed weapons.

That is about the craziest logic I have every heard.

First, she did use the gun on him during his murder. So, how do you get she didn't use the gun. Just because the gun did not produce the death blow does not negate the planning and forethought she put into the crime. You don't have to prove how she was going to kill him, only that she had a plan to kill him. You can also show that her original plan did not work, and that she had a secondary plan to finish the job.

You are too hung up on the gun having to be the murder weapon, and it does not. Again, premeditation is about pre-planning and intent. You don't have to prove a specific weapon was the intended weapon to show there was pre-planning and intent to cause the individual's death. They have provided pre-planning concerning this trip on several fronts. There is also evidence that she did use the gun in an attempt to kill Travis, so where is the problem?

How to you think a profiler would characterize that crime scene? Probably say--a disorganized perpetrator? Hard to say it was even premeditated by the looks of it. It looks more impulsive.

About standard for a first time murder with a knife. It really isn't that disorganized, unless you count her not expecting the victim to actually fight back and try to get out of the bathroom. What do you expect a premeditated murder scene to look like? Do you expect it to look like the maid service has just came through?

I don't consider it illogical at all. Jodi is doing strange things around stealing the gun, her hair, the license plates, her phone battery. But Jodi did lots of strange things all the time. Maybe you could even prove from that that she was sneaking into Arizona to see Travis. But, so what? She often sneaked over to Travis house, and often at his insistence. Remember how she said he would call her at midnight and say everyone's in bed, come on over?

The first two sentences are all parts of her plan to provide herself with a weapon, alter her look so she would not be immediately recognized, she specifically picked a car that "would not stand out", and would make tracing her movements difficult or impossible, but only in the state of Arizona. These all show pre-planning and premeditation, and since Travis ended up dead. Then the gun being stolen and Travis ending up being shot with the same caliber gun is really strong evidence for a plan being in place.

We only have her word that he would make those calls. Have those call be admitted as evidence? He didn't end up dead after any of those trips, but his did after this one, a week after a .25 caliber pistol went missing from her grandfather's home.

I don't see where it is clear if she used a knife to kill him.

If she used the gun, then it's very clear, I agree.

You can't see this weakness in the Prosecution case?

IMO

This is not a weakness. She went there to kill him and she did. She planned it and she carried the play out. She may have had to change her plan a little, but the end result was the same.

 

[MaryNo]

To me, 9. and 10. indicate premeditation.

In your 9. he is slippery, bloody, and "strength is depleted". He is no danger to her (she is claiming self defense), therefore, she is able to get to safety.

In 10. she'd slit his throat from ear to ear. In your scenario, she made the conscious decision to kill him with the gun, because he was still moving. That's premeditation.

Here's what I think happened (based on the photos)

Warning: I believe this was Manslaughter

1) Jodi was photographing Travis in the Shower, dropped the camera or did something that made him really angry (or perhaps he did something that made her really angry).

2) Jodi reacted and grabbed the knife that was in the bathroom (used to cut the tie-ups).

3) She began to stab him, they struggled (the defensive wounds come in here), the knife slipped.

4) She ran for the bedroom with a very angry-looking (but likely in-shock) Travis chasing after her (the massive amount of blood in the hallway happens here).

5) She grabbed the gun and pointed it at him (and I believe it was in place, not brought by Jodi - there are too many .25 calibre guns in Arizona to force the "stolen" theory).

6) He ran back to the bathroom to escape - and to retrieve the knife (again trailing large amounts of blood).

7) She chased him with the gun (leaving a hand print on the blood in the wall).

8) They faced off in the bathroom - with a rapid sequence of events - her wresting the knife, continuing to stab him while he reached for the gun.

9) After multiple stab wounds his strength depleted. He was unable to either reach or maintain a grip on the gun (he was wet and bloody after all).

10) She slit his throat, but he continued to move, so she grabbed the gun and shot him.

The camera's final shot was on an angle. I think that one of the photos went off as a result of the struggle - and the last one went off when Jodi (for whatever reason) picked up the camera as Travis was in the shower.

...but that, of course, is the way it looks to me (and conceeding that without more info - we'll likely never know what happened).

I do believe that she doesn't remember everything that happened, but that she's not being totally honest about how it started.

 

[wasnt_me]

No. In that scenario, he is still at the sink. And it's really 29 seconds, more if we count from before the shot when the camera was moving, which could have been done by Travis if the camera was on the bathroom counter and he caused it to fling up as he lurched to the sink. Then you actually have 2 minutes and forty eight seconds after retrieving the knife from downstairs.

But let's say it's only 29 seconds. I acted it out using the stopwatch on my phone, accounting for movement and some struggle. It's totally possible.

In any event, I don't know that jodi ran downstairs to grab a knife. She could have grabbed one from upstairs somewhere. Which gives her even more time.

But these are just possibilities. I am just explaining how it was possible that jodi did not have a knife at hand which you seemed to think was impossible. I actually think it is more than likely that she had a knife very close by, just in case or for another reason.

I, too, have thought about it being a different scenario that caused the picture to snap of the ceiling which might make the attack have started when she took the picture of his lower half in the shower. But since the prosecution went with ceiling picture, I went with it. Jodi says the lower half body pic wasn't on purpose. Do we believe her? IDK.

I also looked at the wall in the foot picture and the photo afterward, and it seems like she propped him on the wall and slid him to the carpet via the wall--or he did it himself--and she slashed his throat on the carpet. I'm not 100% sure his throat was slashed in that foot picture. I doubt it because the foot picture seemed to be taken 100% on the tile. Then there's this sliding of blood (maybe from his back) going horizontal and down to the resting spot on the carpet. IDK. Just found that interesting.

 

[AuburnSchnauzer]

Question for you experts - How do we know for a fact that Travis even knew he was being photographed in the shower? What kind of lens/camera was being used? By the angle of the photos, was there a place where JA could have taken SOME of these photos without being noticed? I don't have a layout of the bathroom but I sure am not buying that Travis was reviewing photos with JA while he was in the shower.

 

[Danta]

Someone tried to kill me with a knife. I did not go crazy with fear and terror. It was clear that I had one thing to do and that was to grip his wrists, the knife was a big type kitchen knife, and with all my might held his wrists and push them away. It was like an arm wrestle where both arms are frozen in place. I never succeeded in pushing him totally off but I did keep the knife off my face. Looking up at the knife, it could be aimed at my eyes, any part of my face or neck; it would cause harm anywhere it made contact. I was lying across the bed and he came at me. I don’t remember how or why we were not even having an argument; we were talking and I wasn’t watching him, that part was fast, he straddled me, with the knife gripped in his hand.
Fear and terror, like someone mentioned earlier, would get me dead or maimed. My response was to grab his wrists and push back as the knife was coming close to my face. I weigh 120 lbs and he weighed 180. The other thing that is burned in my memory is his drool. When he was straddled over me with the knife aimed at me and I was holding his arms at bay, his drool soaked my jeans, and then as he leaned down it was streaming out of his mouth all over me. We were face to face. I was astounded as the drool poured from his mouth and I realized this was some sort of psychotic break on his part and a physiological response to his craziness was, he was drooling. The drool and using my greatest strength holding his wrist did not elicit terror or fear, just a clarity of how to try to prevent the knife from making contact. I was soaked, my face, my shirt, and my pants, at least it wasn’t blood. I was OK and when he stopped trying to stab me the drool stopped (clear, not foamy or anything). Disgusting to think about and remember. Maybe one of our medical pros might know something about this drool. The person was a lawyer I was dating and this episode came on suddenly and never happened again, I ended the relationship.
I guess this experience speaks to me that the brain overcomes height and weight when put in the right circumstances; it is more than height and weight that makes a successful killer. I would say what saved me was that I got a grip on his wrist, was that from my quick reflexes? If you don’t get the wrist, you get the knife; try grabbing someone’s flailing arms by the wrist no matter the size difference between you both. Every time you miss it’s a defensive wound or strike by biiiiiiig knife.
A premeditated murder does not mean that the mentality of the killer is that of an experienced professional assassin. I am sure the chaos of a psychotic is paramount in the act and attack of a violent murder. A premeditated murder planned through hatred and anger as motivators probably is not in control and therefore cannot control the scene.
A person premeditating a murder to resolve their feelings of hatred and jealousy thinks differently than a hit-man that has the goal of simply killing a person. This can affect the outcome of evidence and scene.

 

[wasnt_me]

Right, so confusing and maddening. How can this be squared with what the ME says about too little hemmoraging within the brain? I hear you, and agree- it just has to square with everything.

Because we don't know where she shot him. We don't know if he was prone on the floor. People assume that. With her dragging him, and all the blood swipes along the wall, it's possible that she might have propped him up, before putting him in the shower. that caused gurgling noises, and thinking he was alive still, she retrieved the gun and shot him. We just don't know.

 

[molly333]

About standard for a first time murder with a knife. It really isn't that disorganized, unless you count her not expecting the victim to actually fight back and try to get out of the bathroom. What do you expect a premeditated murder scene to look like? Do you expect it to look like the maid service has just came through?

You're telling me she's an organized criminal. She brought the gun to kill him, remember?. That's what an organized criminal does. So, yeah, she even got him in the shower to shoot him--it would have looked like the maid service had just come through.

But, it doesn't. It ls a disorganized crime scene. Therefore, its either done by a disorganized perp or something went wrong. A disorganized perp doesn't bring a weapon to a crime scene.

He didn't end up dead after any of those trips, but his did after this one, a week after a .25 caliber pistol went missing from her grandfather's home.

So what? she didn't use the gun to kill him, remember? She didn't use the dvd to kill him, either. That also went missing. Unless she uses the gun to kill him, you cannot prove she ever intended to kill him using the robbery.

This is not a weakness

well, yes it is. And, you see people keep popping up who say she used the knife to defend herself.

That is about the craziest logic I have every heard.

Same to you and I raise you one. You call people names instead of arguing the facts.

IMO

 

[AuburnSchnauzer]

I didn't watch the entire trial but watched a bit of Detective Flores interrogating the murderer and when he told her that she turned her cell phone off before entering AZ and when she got it back on miraculously after she accomplished her mission was VERY telling. He said there was a mountainous region that would have blocked her cell phone when she claimed to have it. PREMEDITATION. Was that ever mentioned during this trial? TIA

 

[wasnt_me]

Another thing which made me always go with the gun first theory: The look on Travis' face in his last live photo:

To me, it is the face of a man who cannot believe what he is seeing. If he was seeing a gun pointed at him (and perhaps as per my other theory, even a Jodi covered with a ski mask) this would be understandable.

If a knife, I think he likely would have said, "WTF? put that down, that's not funny" - thinking she was trying to get kinky or something. Just the way it seems to me.....I actually once had a drunk friend point a knife at me, and this was my reaction, which made him quit horsing around.

Also: Even in the shower, a man can grab a woman's little wrist and wrench it. In arm power they were not matched.

A woman's little wrist doesn't mean she couldn't have gotten a stab off. Earlier in this thread I posted about some women who killed men with just one good stab in the chest. There have been plenty of instances of women stabbing men. You just have to google it to find them.

I think he could have had the reaction you say, but he sat down in the shower, trying to figure how "funny" it was and whether he needed to rush her. He rushed her, she stabbed him in the chest and moved out of the way as he collided with the counter. Not my theory of how it happened, but it's possible that he was more likely to charge a knife than a gun.

 

[wasnt_me]

I voted that he was stabbed, throat slashed and then shot.

I believe she had him sit on the floor for that last shot so he would be at his most vulnerable - he obliged because he was over the whole thing and just wanted her to be done and leave. (I am also one who believes he looks irritated in that last picture, not scared.) Once he was on the ground she began stabbing him. The reason I believe she didn't go for the "easier" kill and shoot him first is because she knew that gun would be very suspicious and could implicate her quicker if she used it rather than a knife in the house because of the "burglary" at her grandparents house. The gun was a back-up and she never intended to use it first.

Once she stabbed him and he was over the sink, he tried to get down the hall only to have his throat slashed and then dragged back to the shower.

I believe while she was dragging him back he was already dead, however, his body may have convulsed causing JA to freak out that he may still be alive - the final shot to the head was her last ditch effort to be done with it.

JMOO :seeya:

Now, it is possible that after getting the gun and seeing the activity in the neighborhood, she might have changed her mind about gun. It's possible. So maybe she had it anyway but changed her mind until she saw him moving or gurgling and thought she had to put him out of his misery with the gunshot. Possible.....

 

[molly333]

Question for you experts - How do we know for a fact that Travis even knew he was being photographed in the shower? What kind of lens/camera was being used? By the angle of the photos, was there a place where JA could have taken SOME of these photos without being noticed? I don't have a layout of the bathroom but I sure am not buying that Travis was reviewing photos with JA while he was in the shower.

I don't think there is a place she could have photographed him without being seen. The closet door is perpendicular to the shower, so not there. And the hallway door is across from the shower, so he would have seen her if he turned his head in that direction, which he did.

By the way, Nancy Grace had a segment last night supposedly showing two people reflected in his right eye. It was kind of spooky.

IMO

 

[AuburnSchnauzer]

People posting here that are basing their opinions on past experiences with whoever, and trying to compare THEIR past experiences to this specific case are unfounded and irrelevant.

 

[wasnt_me]

No. One of the law enforcement witnesses testified (I'm sure someone will remember who it was, and post it) that none of the knives in the house could be matched to the crime. I think JA told the dishwasher story in an attempt to make it look like the knife originated and stayed in the house (rather than being brought by her). She knows that no knives were found to be missing, so she's got to try and make the jury believe that she used one from the house and that it was still there when she left. It's much harder to say a stabbing wasn't premeditated when you brought the knife with you!

Tougher still to say it wasn't premeditated when you brought a gun, a knife, and possibly a rope! All she needs now to seal her fate is for JM to produce a Walmart receipt showing she also bought a lead pipe, a candlestick and a wrench!

Thanks. This is what I was looking for about the knife testimony. It wasn't very likely that the knife originated from Travis' house.

 

[AuburnSchnauzer]

I don't think there is a place she could have photographed him without being seen. The closet door is perpendicular to the shower, so not there. And the hallway door is across from the shower, so he would have seen her if he turned his head in that direction, which he did.

By the way, Nancy Grace had a segment last night supposedly showing two people reflected in his right eye. It was kind of spooky.

IMO

Are you saying that it is your opinion that JA did not plan and carry out the murder of TA?

 

[AuburnSchnauzer]

I don't think there is a place she could have photographed him without being seen. The closet door is perpendicular to the shower, so not there. And the hallway door is across from the shower, so he would have seen her if he turned his head in that direction, which he did.

By the way, Nancy Grace had a segment last night supposedly showing two people reflected in his right eye. It was kind of spooky.

IMO

BBM - Hallway door?

 

[wasnt_me]

I wanted to copy something over from last night and I do think it is a game changer..







I read the autopsy but no mention of if he was shot with a hollow point, I would think that would be easy as pie to detect, from reading all ME testimony it does not appear the bullet was a hollow point.

However Grandpa's gun was said to have hollow points, seven in a magazine, exact same as mine has seven hollow points in it, 25 auto

This seems significant to me not to get glossed over.

It's good information. Could be significant, but we don't know if Jodi went somewhere and practised with her 7 bullets and had to get more from where else.