Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[LambChop]

No --he's not using the terms disorganized and organized.

He's showing you through the evidence--a very organized perp who commits a very disorganized murder, and then he calls it murder one because the organized perp premeditated it back when she stole the gun but, turned into a disorganized perp when she killed him with a knife and left a mess behind.

It's how he is developing his case.

But, the knife and that crime scene gives a Juror latitude to say, She didn't premeditate it, it looks to me like he attacked her, she spontaneously grabbed a knife to defend herself, and then she lost it. Murder two. [or whatever].

Unless he fixes his case.

IMO

Well, the evidence does not show that. The only evidence that he attacker her is her testimony. There are no injuries other than the cut on her hand she received from stabbing Travis and some scratches. She seemed perfectly fit when she did the handstand in the interrogation room.

Jodi's story is full of holes, big time. Juries make decisions based on the total evidence presented and part of that is how credible is the defendant. She's not doing well in that department as JM has pointed out.

I do not think Samuels is doing too well either. By Monday he will have an answer to the 3 hole-punch in his paperwork, mark my word. lol And JM will have another gotsha for this man. Ever notice when Samuels is trying to redeem himself he scratches behind his right ear. Looks over at Jodi where he moves his eyes but not his head. That is deceit. Something a psychologist should know about and yet he does it himself. Unbelievable. jmo

 

[wasnt_me]

Yes, I agree. Everyone has posted me about this, along similar lines: People are weak, they don't always live up to their best ideals, etc. I DO understand this, and have NEVER been the type to judge anyone's indiscretions.

What I cannot seem to get across is that I had fallen for this "Mormon mystique"- whenever I heard that someone "was a Mormon" I felt a wave of awe come over me: For some reason , they struck me as mystical and superior, in a way that Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc. never did. I really don't know why. To me, the chastity thing was almost sexy. I cannot explain it. I am just disappointed to realize they are more run of the mill. Guess I have what they call "the ol' Mormon fixation".

You can still be mystified for those mormons that actually DO follow their creeds.:rocker:

Just as there are those who do not, there are those that take it VERY seriously, I'm sure.

 

[molly333]

I disagree that he hasn't shown this and from the post I wrote earlier, I put in a quote to explain that no category of "organized" or "disorganized" contains people that match it 100%.

JM has not say she planned to kill him with a gun or a knife. He said she used the knife to kill him. I think you're taking mental leaps in what he said and as they keep objecting to in this case, you are "characterizing the testimony."

He said she planned to kill him with the gun when she stole it. Right? Isn't that why he spent so much time focusing on her stealing the gun? Otherwise, why even mention the gun? Who cares if it doesn't show premeditation?

Right, no one is 100 percent, but in this case, his characterization of the perp goes from one extreme to the other.

IMO

 

[wasnt_me]

And I think at some point the jury is going to believe that the person saying "Kill you" was not Travis but Jodi. I still say once she stabbed him or shot him he could have punched her in the face and she would have been out and he did not do that. Why???? We may never know. I would think he just was not a violent person and it shows because she certainly did not have a black eye when she showed up at Ryan's. jmo

I wish he had at least knocked her teeth out. Rip, Travis.

 

[geevee]

geevee


Thanks for your effort

Find the other one of her at 1:42:53 with braids laying in another position That one is better. You might have to black out depending where you get it.

This is the best one I found, is it the one you mean?

http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/g.../?page=1&_suid=136408593318705176378284223648

 

[wasnt_me]

He said she planned to kill him with the gun when she stole it. Right? Isn't that why he spent so much time focusing on her stealing the gun? Otherwise, why even mention the gun? Who cares if it doesn't show premeditation?

Right, no one is 100 percent, but in this case, his characterization of the perp goes from one extreme to the other.

IMO

I went with what you wrote, which is that she killed Travis with a knife. I had assumed you got all that directly from opening statements, which I do not remember well.

Is it from the opening statements? Cause I'll go back and listen, but it's important to note, lawyers can say whatever they want to say in opening statements, whether it's true or whether they actually wind up proving it in the end. That's just par for the course. I can't remember what trial I learned that from, but they can say things in there that won't even come out in court at all later.

Oh, and I don't agree that he's all over the place with her. He's hammering her on two important things. Her memory fog is a lie. And all she does is lie. She's manipulative, and she likes to get revenge or confront people when she has a perceived wrong.

I don't recall him focusing a ton of time on the stolen gun, but I fall asleep a lot watching this. Which reminds me, am I getting the full days when I watch on Youtube? Sometimes, I think I'm not and I feel I missed something.

They mention the gun because it's the same type Travis got shot with, therefore it's part of the commission of the crime. It might not be the star, but it's the co-star.

 

[wasnt_me]

Well, the evidence does not show that. The only evidence that he attacker her is her testimony. There are no injuries other than the cut on her hand she received from stabbing Travis and some scratches. She seemed perfectly fit when she did the handstand in the interrogation room.

Jodi's story is full of holes, big time. Juries make decisions based on the total evidence presented and part of that is how credible is the defendant. She's not doing well in that department as JM has pointed out.

I do not think Samuels is doing too well either. By Monday he will have an answer to the 3 hole-punch in his paperwork, mark my word. lol And JM will have another gotsha for this man. Ever notice when Samuels is trying to redeem himself he scratches behind his right ear. Looks over at Jodi where he moves his eyes but not his head. That is deceit. Something a psychologist should know about and yet he does it himself. Unbelievable. jmo

Yeah, her shoulder will never be the same again, but she'd doing handstands in the interrogation room like 10 days after the event, right?

 

[SMK]

You can still be mystified for those mormons that actually DO follow their creeds.:rocker:

Just as there are those who do not, there are those that take it VERY seriously, I'm sure.

Hadn''t thought of that !!! Mormons, I'm back!:great:

 

[geevee]

I've looked at the blood stain on the carpet a little closer, and I'm starting to wonder if Travis wasn't on his stomach during the final throat slash.

Here's my reasoning. If Travis was on his back for the throat slash, the blood would have dripped down his neck and off his shoulders on both sides. This should have resulted in a blood pattern that is different from what we see in the photo.

To test this, I did a reenactment. I laid on my back on top of an absorbent towel. Then I poured a significant volume of water slowly over my neck in the region where the throat slash occurred. The water runs down the neck and its flow is effected by running off the shoulders (the trapezius area, where the shoulder meets the neck). I got up and saw a wet pattern that looked like the pattern depicted in the first attachment below.

When we look at the actual blood stain in the photo, it shows no sign of this pattern. It is even across the stain. This may suggest that Travis was on his stomach for the coup de grace. During the final slice, he may have collapsed and was, in death throes, reaching up with his right hand, as if one final desperate gesture away from the monster (attachment 2 below).

This may help explain all the Jodi blood-soaked sockprint activity around Travis' body. Perhaps she was delivering back stabs, and then realizing these weren't doing the job, decided to slit his throat. Before trying to pull him back to the shower, she attempted to reposition his body, perhaps trying to get him on the duvet cover. This would have entailed attempting some maneuvers aimed at rolling him over onto the cover.

A potential implication of this may be that Travis was backing up from Jodi during the knife attack, and fell backwards in the hallway. Jodi delivered a volley of chest stabs while Travis, weakening and almost resigning, lay on his back. To gain an advantageous position, Jodi moved around over his head. In a final attempt to get away, Travis rolled over and attempted move to the bedroom on hands and knees perhaps trying to knock Jodi's feet out from under her in a last attempt to stop the attack. I would think it instinctive when one is facing an unstoppable onslaught, one will want to flip over onto one's stomach to shield the face. Travis did not succeed in knocking Jodi off her feet, she backed up as Travis collapsed, face down, on the carpet. Then she proceeded to finish him off.

Whew. I need to take a break....

Dave

Oh, that's good, I'll have to stare at that stain pic some more, if you move your red marks in pic 1 down a little it matches pretty well with the pattern below the narrow part of what we think is the neck wound. Do you see or am I going buggy-eyed? lol I was thinking a while ago that's it's not inconceivable that she slit his throat while pinning him against the wall and that's when the fight was knocked out of him, and he slid over onto the carpet falling face first. There was a lot of blood in that area of the hall floor and water displaced/diluted some of it near the carpet edge.

Think I'll take a break and let my eyes normalize before messing with pics again. Oh, if you have a chance to look through the photos I uploaded, I isolated a spot from the sitting pic and enlarged it, I think it may be flying blood from the first wound, but no one else seems to see it that way. lol

 

[SMK]

Don't put them up on a pedestal though! In the end, they are still human with human flaws and desires and urges. Religion is just a human suppressant. I think it's really dangerous.

True. With Travis, on the one hand, religion gave him a purpose and a community of people and helped him thrive.

On the other hand, it was dangerous in that it made him be dishonest in order to deal with some parts of himself. True - human, all too human.

 

[LambChop]

Something that is worth considering when you are thinking premeditation and that fact Jodi said she was in a fog. She started at the shower and if she wanted to kill him in the shower it would make sense she would drag him back there, which she did. Travis had already washed her off him. And if Jodi claimed she did not hurt herself at the scene then why was there a need to wash Travis off.

The palm print on the wall was her left hand because it was facing toward the bedroom so it had to have been her left. She showed Flores her left hand where the Ninjas cut her hand so we know her left hand was cut because there was blood on the wall belonging to her. If her hand were injured when she was continually stabbing Travis and she continued to stab but had to switch hands. At some point she had to have been getting tired of the stabbing and could have just gone for the gun and shot him to keep him from moving.

Either way there is a reason and basis for both weapons being used at any time during the murder. But the mere fact she changed weapons tells us she wanted him dead. And that she did accomplish. jmo

 

[molly333]

This is how you perceive the case. That doesn't mean it's what he's really presenting. Remember, not everyone sees this the same way, so to different people, he's doing very different things.

For example, the people who totally believe in Jodi's innocence believe that JM is doing nothing at all to prove anything, and that her defence team is doing a good job. So it's all about perception.

Maybe some of the jury sees it as you do, maybe some see it as I do, maybe some see it as the people who think Jodi is innocent sees it.

But I don't agree that he's shown the things you say. I don't find Jodi organized. If I were a juror, the knife wouldn't come into consideration under premeditation, as it shouldn't.

Again, say a serial killer abducted someone, took them to the desert to kill them, and had a knife in the car, a gun in the car, and some rope in the car. The victim is killed by a huge bolder the serial killer bashed on the victim's head.

Because the killer used the bolder, it's not premeditation any more?

Remember with a circumstantial case, you are required to look for an innocent explanation for each circumstantial piece because we have the presumption of innocence.

I can find an innocent explanation for each circumstantial piece of evidence he uses to show premeditation, including the gun, because, according to him, she did not kill him with the gun.

On the hand hand, if she starts by stealing a gun, and ends by killing him with that very same gun, then everything in between turns very strongly in favor of premeditation.

The gun is his strongest puzzle piece for premeditation and he throws the gun in the trash.

IMO

 

[wasnt_me]

BBM
That still mystifies me, she apparently checked TA's voice mails around 5:45, and as close as the roommate (Enrique?) can remember is he got home between 6:00 and 6:30. The duvet cover is found in the dryer and we see it pictured in the very last photo at 5:33, how does she get it into the washer with the sheet, pillow cases and whatever else was in that load, get it washed and put in dryer and then throw camera, towel, t shirt and socks in washer, all in a half hour?

Could the camera have originally been set for CA time and it the time stamps be an hour later than they actually were? That would make much more sense.

It's Travis' camera. I'm assuming he set the time, not Jodi. Correct me if I'm wrong, but AZ does not do DST, so at the time of year the pic was taken, it would be the same time in CA and in AZ because CA had sprang forward already. When CA falls back, AZ will be an hour ahead.

Is that correct?

 

[BW0000]

Yes. I understand and agree. Thanks so much - But what I actually wanted your opinion on is, if the enumerated items I posted would preclude, logically, his having sex with her on June 4?

I don't believe they did anything on june04. He risked pretty much everything seeing her. Maybe she held the phone tape over his head. The the may26 text, she slit tires, he's in bad graces with his Church. Other girl friend left him because of her. Most of his friends figured her out. How can one more fling mean anything and keep him on the right path? Going to Cancun shortly. I want to get back to the old way, there's more to life than being a dildo with a heart. I want my reputation back.


No way on june04!

 

[RealityMan]

I agree. I've posted here before, but was ignored, about the fact that the foot picture was taken in the middle of the hall. You can see that tile flooring all around and no carpet. so I think where that picture was taken, Travis somehow got himself up on the wall and you can see his back sliding along the wall and then he falls into that blood angel picture we are discussing. She then slashes his throat in fear of him actually getting his bloody self out of the room.

It's possible, but I don't see TA getting back up after JA has him nearly flat on his back like that. Maybe pushing himself back to the carpet area with his feet, but not getting up again.

I wonder if it is possible that the photo shows the very moment TA is sustaining his defensive wounds to his right hand, grasping the blade with his hand, just prior to receiving the final knife slash.

I believe there were two deep wounds to the muscle in TA's neck/shoulder area, in addition to the final neck slash, that could explain the bleeding around TA's neck in that photo.

If it wasn't generated by TA as he fell, the long blood smear on the hallway wall could have been generated be JA herself as she dragged TA back to the bathroom, perhaps be his feet. I believe TA suffered stab wounds as he escaped down the hallway that created blood spatter on the wall. JA then rubbed against the wall, smearing the blood spatter along the wall. We know she was bracing herself against that wall at some point based on her palm print being found on it.

I've read some speculation that the first photo was taken with the camera oriented toward the bedroom, which would indicate that TA's head in the photo is closer to the bathroom.

I don't think that's correct. To me, it looks like the light is emanating from the bathroom, with the sink/mirror being in the background just above TA's right foot.

 

[wasnt_me]

Remember with a circumstantial case, you are required to look for an innocent explanation for each circumstantial piece because we have the presumption of innocence.

I can find an innocent explanation for each circumstantial piece of evidence he uses to show premeditation, including the gun, because, according to him, she did not kill him with the gun.

On the hand hand, if she starts by stealing a gun, and ends by killing him with that very same gun, then everything in between turns very strongly in favor of premeditation.

The gun is his strongest puzzle piece for premeditation and he throws the gun in the trash.

IMO

Yes, that's what you're supposed to do until too many circumstantial "pieces" can no longer be separated, and they turn into a murder plot.

You said yourself earlier in this thread that you believed it was premeditation, given everything BUT the knife first "theory," and that's all it is--a theory.

You had said that if it's gun first you have no problem, based on all this other circumstantial evidence. That leads me to believe you have taken all these separate pieces and put together a puzzle. You're just not fitting in one piece. That's all. And your piece, in my opinion, doesn't meet reasonable doubt.

 

[SMK]

It also caused him to be ashamed of things he needn't be ashamed of. Most people know sex is healthy and fun and we as humans enjoy doing it whether we are married to the person or not. Religion teaches people that sex is dirty and immoral and wrong unless you are married. It is a very slippery slope and I think it's sad.

Quite true, and it does seem as if Travis, due to his religion, was living as though he were in a former, bygone era.

 

[wasnt_me]

It's possible, but I don't see TA getting back up after JA has him nearly flat on his back like that. Maybe pushing himself back to the carpet area with his feet, but not getting up again.

I wonder if it is possible that the photo shows the very moment TA is sustaining his defensive wounds to his right hand, grasping the blade with his hand, just prior to receiving the final knife slash.

I believe there were two deep wounds to the muscle in TA's neck/shoulder area, in addition to the final neck slash, that could explain the bleeding around TA's neck in that photo.

The long blood smear on the hallway could have been generated be JA herself as she dragged TA back to the bathroom, perhaps be his feet. I believe TA suffered stab wounds as he escaped down the hallway that created blood spatter on the wall. JA then rubbed against the wall, smearing the blood spatter along the wall. We know she was bracing herself against that wall at some point based on her palm print being found on it.

Yeah, it's hard to swallow with a prone position, but he's not really prone. His arms are up doing something--possibly what you're saying, pushing against her and her wrists or grabbing the knife. but the straight legs make it hard to see that he'd still move up against the wall.

But it is apparent, is it not, that they appear to be on all tile? And it's apparent that right beside the huge pool of blood is a slide pattern against the wall. So it becomes possible that either he slid against the wall to the carpet, or she slid him against the wall. Him sliding himself seems more logical, but logical is a dirty word in this case. Unless she slid him up the wall, but his feet were already facing the bathroom, so no point of that.

I thought Jodi's hand print was on the wall opposite of this smear we are discussing?

 

[wasnt_me]

Yes, the area next to the dark carpet stain looks like it was walked through many times.

And a little of it, in one photo I saw, appears to be on the threshold of the closet. Just the threshold, it appears.

 

[molly333]

Yes, that's what you're supposed to do until too many circumstantial "pieces" can no longer be separated, and they turn into a murder plot.

You said yourself earlier in this thread that you believed it was premeditation, given everything BUT the knife first "theory," and that's all it is--a theory.

You had said that if it's gun first you have no problem, based on all this other circumstantial evidence. That leads me to believe you have taken all these separate pieces and put together a puzzle. You're just not fitting in one piece. That's all. And your piece, in my opinion, doesn't meet reasonable doubt.

I do believe it was premeditated but no thanks to the Prosecutor. It's because I believe she used the gun first. I believe she stole the gun to kill him and she tried to kill him with it.

It's the Jury I'm worried about. Because without the gun first, murder one doesn't work for me. Remember Seamans case again. The Judge gave her murder two even though she hit her husband with that ax around 20 plus times. He determined it was because she was afraid of him and also that she didn't premeditate it.

IMO