Jodi Arias Trial Watchers Thread #1

[iluvmua]

I can't wait to read the true crime book about this fascinating case.

 

[Madeleine74]

I think a death penalty case hinges on premeditation.

Premeditation and intent makes it first degree murder. The jury ultimately decides if this murder was committed in the first degree. Premeditation does not mean death will be the sentence. It could if the jury decides unanimously, or she could get lwop.

It is up to the state to determine if they will try for the DP under the state's law at the time of indictment and charging. Not all first degree murder cases are death penalty cases. However, all death penalty cases are (or involve) first degree murder.

My opinion of Travis, based on what's been presented, is that he was a jerk and a phony. However, that doesn't give anyone the right to kill him unless he was threatening their life in that moment. And he was not. So his personality and Arias' personality are besides the point because the issue is not who was a jerk and who was not, but the crime and the elements of proving the charges. Her life was not in danger (she could have left his house at any time) so it's not self-defense. It's either 2nd degree murder or 1st degree murder. And the jury has to decide that.

 

[BrownRice]

I think the one huge difference in that case was Tanover was the prescribing Dr for all of Jean's drugs(speed). He was presrcibing huge amounts to her for several years and cut her off several days before incident, according to Shana Alexander's book...she was clearly in the throes of withdrawal. I do not beleive she went there to kill him, I beleive she planned to kill herself.IMO the amphet/speed addtiction, withdrawal, and his cruel treatment of her colided that night. Once the gun went off she kept shooting. Murder yes but no way in the same league as JA. I think JA is a more "calm" Betty Broderick.

Yes! I was just thinking that. I lived in SD when her separation/divorce/killing took place. She did go crazy - and we the public watched it. Every week she was in the tabloid weekly reader for her latest shenanigans. Her husband and his secretary were no innocent players at all (in the DIVORCE/AFFAIR), but they sure were in the murder.

Even though JA was only with TA for a very short period of time, I see a lot of Betty in her. Thrown to the curb, humiliated, and enraged. And finally, if you are going to leave me, you are going to pay the ultimate price. And, if I'm not mistaken, Betty had a hung jury the first trial which was crazy.

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

I'm also getting Clara Harris....she kept trying to "change" to become what her husband wanted, OR what she THOUGHT he wanted to keep him away from his mistress.



ETA: Up for parole in Feb.

http://truecrimezine.com/clara-harris-book-clifford-linedecker/

 

[CarolinaMoon]

MOO, but I think a death penalty case hinges on premeditation. That is the make or break on a murder one charge isn't it? That's why her DT is trying so desperately to paint her as a victim. They want to make it come across as a crime of passion, not a calculated and well thought out murder.

I've been trying to keep track of the elements of premeditation in the case. So far, I've come up with:

1. Came to Mesa armed with a gun. I don't know if she brought the butcher knife with her or found it in the home.

2. Rented a car quite a distance from Yreka.

3. At some point, she turned the rear plate upside-down and removed the front plate.

4. Knew that Travis would be home alone when she arrived. Coincidentally, it was prior to the Cancun cruise which might have been the breaking point for her.

Obviously, there is plenty of premeditation, but there is also the element of a rage killing here. Her cover-up attempts were a dismal failure as well.

I also don't think she and Travis argued prior to the murder. The final picture of him alive, possibly sitting in the shower (someone remind me) doesn't display any sort of anger. I don't think she dropped the camera. From personal experience, sharp contact between a camera and a tile floor would have done some physical damage to the camera. I'm waiting to hear if there was anything broken.

As for self-defense, the defense has to show she only used force enough to take herself out of danger. The stab wound to the heart was quite enough, thank you. A call to 911 at that time, in all probability, would not have saved Travis' life.

How convenient of Ms. Arias to have a gun/knife handy just at the moment (sarcasm intended).

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

IMO, JA had TA "sitting" in the shower for that last pic so he was more "vulnerable" and again, IMO, THAT'S where the stabbing started, the front ones(?). Maybe she said she was gonna get in there with him??? She "thought" he was going to just die and in the shower, no mess no fuss.
She didn't plan on him surviving that initial attack.

The more I keep trying to put things in order, the more my thoughts about the actual "sequence" of events go in a diff direction than what the prosecution says.
Guess no one will ever know...unless, "on a whim", JA decides to come clean...NOT!!

Oh, and if all the TV reports would kindly STOP playing the "Oh Holy Night" video...I'm sooo tired of finding myself humming it and feeling disgusting.

 

[mrsu]

I'm still trying to figure out the whole camera thing...if she left it on purpose or if it got tangled in the sheets and she didn't have time to look for it.

IIRC correctly, these images that we are seeing, were actually DELETED off the camera. And again IIRC it was said the camera contained nude photos of Jodi that were taken by Travis around about 1:30pm that same day. Then several photos of Travis where he is "posing" nude in the shower and the final image of him alive where he is sitting. I think she stabs him first in the shower. A struggle ensues, possibly he grabs at the camera and that photo is snapped of the ceiling above the shower.

The thing to keep in mind is that the Travis shower photos and the accidental photos (the shot of the ceiling and one where you can see her foot as he was being dragged) were DELETED from the camera and were only recovered by the SIM card. It was not entirely clear if the nude photos of Jodi were also deleted or if they were left on the camera, but it is how they knew she was with him that day and not April 2008 when she had last seen him.

 

[scapa]

There is little doubt that she is guilty of a brutal murder and I am in no way defending her but I don't completely buy the image of him as a choir boy, an innocent who was seduced by him, etc. Something about him strikes me as arrogant and even derogatory towards women.

I think he liked to portray his image as spiritually enlightened and he rejected Jodi because she was not pure and he needed a more virtuous and virginal woman to marry to match the image he wanted to portray. He was more than willing to sleep with Jodi and perform all sorts of dirty deeds with her in the night but in the light of day he rejected her as not good enough for him. In some ways he despised her because she knew how un-virtuous he could be. She was a reminder of how very sinful he was and he did not like that.

Just the fact that he called her a "three hole wonder" and wrote on his blog that he would like meet many different people "except *advertiser censored*" and made a derogatory remarks about *advertiser censored* on MySpace and their webcams (if I remember rightly) makes me wonder....

So he was putting women down for taking sexy or revealing pictures (and sending or offering to send them to him) and that made them *advertiser censored*?? But wasn't he having sex with Jodi and they were taking pics of it with his new camera? So he must have liked that after all but didn't want it publicly known because he had his spiritual mormom image to maintain.

This is pretty much dead on, I think. Ugliness came to characterize their relationship and now it dominates the aftermath. I agree with everyone here about the brutality of this crime and JA's culpability for it and I can see no way that she'll get anything less than a very long prison sentence. No one deserves to die for withdrawing from a relationship he can't see himself being happy, safe and interested in. She deserves to spend her life in jail, period.

But it seems to be that part of the reason we follow cases like this, where the crime and the criminal are apparent, is to learn something from them, be it about social or gender relations, the way we live now, marginal cultures, whatever. And I am struck by the way that, once again, TA's conduct prior to the murder is the result of being a "hot-blooded young man" on the lookout for a wife pure in heart and deed, corrupted by the evil and sociopathic JA (again, prior to the murder) a sex-crazed stalker with laughable delusions of suitability. Do we still believe that men are tempted into sin by low women? Nowhere do I get the sense that he was "used" by her and that he continued to see her because he couldn't bear to break her heart. They used each other. Made sparks. And knowing several extremely accomplished and good people who at one point in their romantic lives engaged in completely out-of-character practices like stalking, car-keying and anonymous phone calls in the middle of the night to the objects of their desire, I don't see these behaviours as being clear evidence of sociopathy. Actually, if worryingly, they're not so uncommon. So I'm not sure that TA can have had any clear idea of the mortal danger posed by JA. Tire-slashing, Facebook snooping and brutal murder are not necessarily on a continuum. If we learn anything in this trial, maybe it will be what the breaking point was. In many ways, this reads like so many DV cases that end in the murder of the woman by the man: unrequited love, desire of partner to withdraw from an unhappy relationship, new partner in the offing, etc.

That shower picture is heart-breaking. By whatever horrendous coincidence, it does remind me of one of the frames of Janet Leigh's face in Psycho.


Och -- excuse the rambling -- very early here and on kid-duty!

s

 

[Karmady]

My disagreement is in calling the victim a sociopath. NONE of us here know what went on in his mind or what he wanted to do regarding getting out of the relationship. His friends said he wanted out. His going to Mexico with another woman seemed he wanted out. Her having to stalk him obviously means that she isn't getting what she wanted out of the relationship.

None of us know what those photos show. It has been said that they are posing, but how does that make him a sociopath? He was a young, hot blooded man. So he had sex with her. How does that make him a sociopath?

My impression of him is based only a bit on the photos/sex aspect although, admittedly, that's what I mentioned in my posts. It's more based on his personal history and his chosen path, his friends' descriptions of his demeanor, etc. and those things in conjunction with the obvious tension between his public v. private life, including the whole madonna/*advertiser censored* thing. I just wanted to make it clear that what I'm saying wasn't based on the photos, primarily, since it wasn't entirely clear from my prior posts. I don't plan to harp on it and, as I said, it has no bearing on her guilt or innocence in my mind. I just find the dynamic interesting and, as someone else mentioned, instructive and worthy of discussion in general, if not here.

 

[wenwe4]

Just a personal note here to address the issues of TA's Mormon values and reconciling his sexual escapades. Here is a personal perspective - this is not said to offend anyone. It is just my own experience and my personal take on the matter. WARNING GRAPHIC WORDING - Do Not read if you might be offended. . . . .

My mother married a "mormon" man, we were converted to the faith and I was baptised @ age 12. I spent the next 4 yrs going to church 2x on Sunday, having "Family Home Evening" on Monday, Tuesday was "Mutual" classes for pre-teens and teens, Saturday nights were "Stake dances" for LDS teens. In addition, I spent 2 years in "Seminary" classes @ school. We actually walked across the street from the highschool and attend Mormon classes every school day (without school credit).

What I learned most from my Mormon experience was:
1) How to be a good liar (because being human was not acceptable)
2) Men could get away with anything - as long as they lied and hid their discretions (ie: sex, drinking, smoking, etc). My step-father and his "Bishop and Elder" friends would go on motorcycle trips to Mexico. Once they hit the border -they would get so drunk and party til they vomited. Not because God doesn't see you across the border but because there were no Mormon members who could see you and gossip.
3) Women are second class citizens. They can never attain the highest level of "Priesthood" but could only hope to be "saved" through their relations with their Fathers and/or Husbands.
4) People of color (back in the 1970's) had the "mark of the beast" and were decendents of Cain. Of course, they are now able to be included in the church (as long as they are male).
5) LDS people didn't want to talk about the Polygamy (Polygeny) issues - saying they no longer practice that as they had to follow "Man's Laws" and it was only done to "populate the church". Of course, it still remains in their Doctorine and Covenents #132 edict and was never removed from their scriptures that were "translated" by Joseph Smith. This is the biggest arguement the Fundamentalist Mormons have against them - that they have changed the church since Smith brought it to earth.
6) I have never felt more oppressed in my life than when I lived as an LDS in a very Mormon town. Everyone knew what you did, when you did it, who was with you, how often you did it and where you were. Even things like drinking coffee or a cola. The "Words of Wisdom" were held to a higher standard than the 10 commandments. (ie: no alcohol, no caffeine, no pre-marital sex, no birth control, no wearing sleeveless clothing, no wearing crosses, etc).

I have been told the church is not like it used to be and not nearly as oppressive. I do know that females are now encouraged to get an education and not go to college to just obtain their "Mrs.". I still will never forget (or forgive) the Paternalistic and oppressive view that were in place while I attended.

GRAPHIC WORDS BELOW are from testimony in this case.

I can see how TA would "compartmentalize" an rationalize how "oral or anal sex" would be ok within a premarital relationship (as there would be no proof - ie. getting pregnant). As long as people didn't know about it ....secrets are kept and lies are told - you can still hold your head high and pretend to be the perfect LDS man. Of course, JA would be the "*advertiser censored*" for allowing herself to engage in this behavior.

Thank you for letting me talk about my perspective without being offended or feeling attacked. This post is not directed at anyone in particular. Mods if inappropriate please remove.

 

[scapa]

I have been told the church is not like it used to be and not nearly as oppressive. I do know that females are now encouraged to get an education and not go to college to just obtain their "Mrs.". I still will never forget (or forgive) the Paternalistic and oppressive view that were in place while I attended.

GRAPHIC WORDS BELOW are from testimony in this case.

I can see how TA would "compartmentalize" an rationalize how "oral or anal sex" would be ok within a premarital relationship (as there would be no proof - ie. getting pregnant). As long as people didn't know about it ....secrets are kept and lies are told - you can still hold your head high and pretend to be the perfect LDS man. Of course, JA would be the "*advertiser censored*" for allowing herself to engage in this behavior.

Thank you for letting me talk about my perspective without being offended or feeling attacked. This post is not directed at anyone in particular. Mods if inappropriate please remove.

Many thanks for this perspective. I'm reminded of the documentary "CleanFlix," which surveys the rise and fall of the various film-bowdlerizing firms in Utah (and elsewhere), particularly the idea that a violent action film, violent in content but also in world-view, narrative orientation, etc., could be made clean by the simple act of excising scenes of violence -- what is not seen is not there. It isn't true, of course.

All peoples, places and faiths have their hypocrisies. It is enormously sad that what seems in hindsight a straightforward mismatch should have resulted in such an unpleasant crime. As with so many crimes like it, I suspect that any other combination of persons would have ended in hurt feelings and moving on.

s

 

[LambChop]

I think a simpler explanation is Travis just did not know how to handle her. It is not easy dealing with a person like JA. I can remember when I was 18 a young man I had meet through a friend kept showing up at my house. I never dated him, he would just "stop by" to see if I was available. He really creeped me out and as soon as I'd hear his motorcycle coming down the street I'd head for my room leaving my mother to deal with him. He always managed to inch his way into the house and my mother would pleasantly try to talk with him and he would be there for 20 or 30 minutes just talking. After 3 months of these visits my mother told him I was seeing someone. He still continued to show up until my mother told him I was engaged and then and only then did he stop coming around. These people just do not take no for an answer.

I think the Anthony case is a perfect example of not knowing how to deal with a person with this type of disorder. Even KC's parents did not know how to handle her. jmo

 

[Chanler]

Just a personal note here to address the issues of TA's Mormon values and reconciling his sexual escapades. Here is a personal perspective - this is not said to offend anyone. It is just my own experience and my personal take on the matter. WARNING GRAPHIC WORDING - Do Not read if you might be offended. . . . .

My mother married a "mormon" man, we were converted to the faith and I was baptised @ age 12. I spent the next 4 yrs going to church 2x on Sunday, having "Family Home Evening" on Monday, Tuesday was "Mutual" classes for pre-teens and teens, Saturday nights were "Stake dances" for LDS teens. In addition, I spent 2 years in "Seminary" classes @ school. We actually walked across the street from the highschool and attend Mormon classes every school day (without school credit).

What I learned most from my Mormon experience was:
1) How to be a good liar (because being human was not acceptable)
2) Men could get away with anything - as long as they lied and hid their discretions (ie: sex, drinking, smoking, etc). My step-father and his "Bishop and Elder" friends would go on motorcycle trips to Mexico. Once they hit the border -they would get so drunk and party til they vomited. Not because God doesn't see you across the border but because there were no Mormon members who could see you and gossip.
3) Women are second class citizens. They can never attain the highest level of "Priesthood" but could only hope to be "saved" through their relations with their Fathers and/or Husbands.
4) People of color (back in the 1970's) had the "mark of the beast" and were decendents of Cain. Of course, they are now able to be included in the church (as long as they are male).
5) LDS people didn't want to talk about the Polygamy (Polygeny) issues - saying they no longer practice that as they had to follow "Man's Laws" and it was only done to "populate the church". Of course, it still remains in their Doctorine and Covenents #132 edict and was never removed from their scriptures that were "translated" by Joseph Smith. This is the biggest arguement the Fundamentalist Mormons have against them - that they have changed the church since Smith brought it to earth.
6) I have never felt more oppressed in my life than when I lived as an LDS in a very Mormon town. Everyone knew what you did, when you did it, who was with you, how often you did it and where you were. Even things like drinking coffee or a cola. The "Words of Wisdom" were held to a higher standard than the 10 commandments. (ie: no alcohol, no caffeine, no pre-marital sex, no birth control, no wearing sleeveless clothing, no wearing crosses, etc).

I have been told the church is not like it used to be and not nearly as oppressive. I do know that females are now encouraged to get an education and not go to college to just obtain their "Mrs.". I still will never forget (or forgive) the Paternalistic and oppressive view that were in place while I attended.

GRAPHIC WORDS BELOW are from testimony in this case.

I can see how TA would "compartmentalize" an rationalize how "oral or anal sex" would be ok within a premarital relationship (as there would be no proof - ie. getting pregnant). As long as people didn't know about it ....secrets are kept and lies are told - you can still hold your head high and pretend to be the perfect LDS man. Of course, JA would be the "*advertiser censored*" for allowing herself to engage in this behavior.

Thank you for letting me talk about my perspective without being offended or feeling attacked. This post is not directed at anyone in particular. Mods if inappropriate please remove.

Hi Wenwe4, thanks for sharing details of your personal experience. And the compartmentalizing that you mention is not limited to Mormonism: A practicing Hindu graduate school friend of my girlfriend told her that she was maintaining her virginity by "doing everything else." Also, apparently many fundamentalists don't believe that oral sex or mutual masturbation is sex.

As for Travis, I don't think that it's fair to call him a player. By all accounts, he seems to have been a 30+-year-old virgin when he got involved with Jodi. I think that once broken, such an extended period of chastity usually leads to a libido rush. Travis really wanted to be a good Mormon: He believed, probably accurately, that his religious commitment had turned around his life. His many friends (many of whom were married) saw him as playful, robust person who prayed, journaled, and practiced his religion daily. And after the relationship breakup with Jodi, he wasn't visiting or pursuing her; she seemed to have been making the moves.

And also I have an odd comment about Jodi: I think that she truly believed it when she wrote her tributes to the man she had killed. I think that she lived in a mental world in which her relationship with Travis could be cleansed much like his bloody corpse. She might even believe that she will be reunited with him in the Mormon Celestial Kingdom. Her self-possession is almost that of a person playing out a drama. To people like us who don't think mythically, this is stranger than strange, but for her, it might be true.

 

[popsicle]

My understanding on the pictures is that she deleted all of them, the nudes and the murder scene.

I think she first stabbed him in the shower where he attained his defense wounds and she also was cut on her hands. He stumbled out of the shower towards the sink bracing himself there and she continued to stab him in the back, head and neck until he collapsed on the floor leaving the smears on the sink. Once down she shot him in the head with the bullet lodging in his cheek. His adrenaline is pumping, his will to live strong although he has no fight in him he does the only thing he can, he crawls out the door. She drags him back into the bathroom and slits his throat finally ending his life.

I do not believe she will get the DP although I do believe she will be convicted.

 

[manzana]

My understanding on the pictures is that she deleted all of them, the nudes and the murder scene.

.

Which really does not make much sense, it takes longer to either format or multi-delete pics from a memory card than simply removing the card itself.

I think it comes down to plans vs thoughts. I really do not think Jodi had a plan and if so it was one that was terribly executed. Everyone has thoughts, random, silly or otherwise. A man wearing a toupee, taking it off and throwing it, not one of my thoughts but just an example. Not everyone acts on their thoughts, most do not.

Jodie's thought process I am sure was far more peculiar, strange and odd compared to most. I do not see much of a plan, more-so acting out on bizarre thoughts. Seriously who has an afternoon delight after sleeping in and then decides now is the time I am going to commit the murder I planned some twelve hours later.

 

[pip]

I've been following this horrible case and have a few thoughts on how it may have played out. I do think she went with the intention of getting him to commit to her and not taking the other girl to Cancun or he would die. Her last straw. She stole the gun with this premeditated plan. I do think that she planned his murder to be with the gun, not knife. I think the first assault on him was with the gun as he sat in the shower. The last known pic of him alive shows the right side of his body facing the shower door. I think she opened the door and fired down onto him. The bullet entered through his right eyebrow and lodged into his left cheek. He likely turned his head away as he saw what was coming. I don't think she would have been confident/brave or powerful enough to make her first assault with a knife. The gun was the plan. I think he got out of the shower and struggled to the to the sink to see the damage she had done. He would have been bleeding profusely and the "splatter" we see could be from coughing blood or arterial bleeding from the GSW. I recall in her story of the "intruders" where a gun was pointed at her and it didn't go off. A little truth in every lie? Perhaps she tried firing at him again and the gun wouldn't fire so she ran and got the knife and began stabbing him from behind while he was at the sink. He tried to escape her and as he turned, the heart stab came. Then lastly she slit his throat. I just have a hard time believing she would try to stab him first when she had the gun plan in advance and the fact that it would be very risky for her to use the knife first on such a large and strong man. She disabled him with the gun and finished with the knife out of necessity, because she couldn't get the gun to work after the first shot which didn't kill him as intended.
JMO/theory
We will likely never know the truth.

 

[Chanler]

Which really does not make much sense, it takes longer to either format or multi-delete pics from a memory card than simply removing the card itself.

I think it comes down to plans vs thoughts. I really do not think Jodi had a plan and if so it was one that was terribly executed. Everyone has thoughts, random, silly or otherwise. A man wearing a toupee, taking it off and throwing it, not one of my thoughts but just an example. Not everyone acts on their thoughts, most do not.

Jodie's thought process I am sure was far more peculiar, strange and odd compared to most. I do not see much of a plan, more-so acting out on bizarre thoughts. Seriously who has an afternoon delight after sleeping in and then decides now is the time I am going to commit the murder I planned some twelve hours later.

Hi, Manzana. I think that she did have a plan. In fact, attacking someone nude in an enclosed area after you have disarmed or distracted by taking pictures sounds like a horror filmmaker's fantasy set-up. In truth, her planning was imperfect: She probably hadn't imagined that her grandparents would notice the theft of their camera and any ideas of a quick killing vanished when he didn't die instantly. Her post-attack actions were, as you note, irrational and messy; but just the sort of panicked, illogical action that killers take at violent murder scenes.

On the other hand, I think that having sex with Travis and then stabbing, shooting, and slashing his throat were exactly what you would expect of Jodi. Just like her memorial tributes, this final sensual sendoff was part of her sealing him to eternity before her final act of exorcism. It's almost as if she was living some paranormal fantasy film.

 

[manzana]

theft of their camera .

Do you mean gun?

 

[Chanler]

I've been following this horrible case and have a few thoughts on how it may have played out. I do think she went with the intention of getting him to commit to her and not taking the other girl to Cancun or he would die. Her last straw. She stole the gun with this premeditated plan. I do think that she planned his murder to be with the gun, not knife. I think the first assault on him was with the gun as he sat in the shower. The last known pic of him alive shows the right side of his body facing the shower door. I think she opened the door and fired down onto him. The bullet entered through his right eyebrow and lodged into his left cheek. He likely turned his head away as he saw what was coming. I don't think she would have been confident/brave or powerful enough to make her first assault with a knife. The gun was the plan. I think he got out of the shower and struggled to the to the sink to see the damage she had done. He would have been bleeding profusely and the "splatter" we see could be from coughing blood or arterial bleeding from the GSW. I recall in her story of the "intruders" where a gun was pointed at her and it didn't go off. A little truth in every lie? Perhaps she tried firing at him again and the gun wouldn't fire so she ran and got the knife and began stabbing him from behind while he was at the sink. He tried to escape her and as he turned, the heart stab came. Then lastly she slit his throat. I just have a hard time believing she would try to stab him first when she had the gun plan in advance and the fact that it would be very risky for her to use the knife first on such a large and strong man. She disabled him with the gun and finished with the knife out of necessity, because she couldn't get the gun to work after the first shot which didn't kill him as intended.
JMO/theory
We will likely never know the truth.

Hi, pip. Thanks for this description. To me, that sounds logical. Attacking the much larger and stronger Travis with a knife would have been a mistake. Any plans that Jodi had for a one-shot resolution, of course, turned out to be impossible, but even if the shot didn't kill him; it almost certainly disoriented him and perhaps partly blinded him with the blood. He might not have even seen the gun or known that he was shot, but nevertheless could feel the pain and blood.

But as you say, we will likely never know the truth.

 

[Chanler]

Do you mean gun?

I did indeed. Synchronizing my slow typing and my thoughts sometimes proves difficult. Thanks!