John Fernie

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JB and Daphne White were best friends. ST wrote in his book about Nedra telling him that on two occasions, when FW brought JB home after playing with Daphne, FW was carrying JB's soiled panties and JB was wearing a pair of Daphne's panties. IMO FW was a concerned, caring, hands-on parent who was willing to do the necessary clean-up when his young daughter's young friend soiled herself
 
It didn't say she was six, but my 4 year old niece wouldn't let a man change her panties... So, was he only doing this when she was an infant? I still think it's creepy. It's not moo...it was written in schillers book. I don't know about Patsy's childrearing at all, cause that is heresy anyway, I just find it disturbing is all..I felt like bringing it up.
Soiled underwear needs to be taken off immediately and the child needs to be cleaned. JB suffered some serious soiling and wetting issues, and for her age, that was pretty disturbing too. I guess the Rs could have kept her home and hid the problem, but for whatever reason, they didn't and JB was at the mercy of whoever she was around to help get her cleaned up. moo
 
cherisa;9993702 [
QUOTE]It didn't say she was six, but my 4 year old niece wouldn't let a man change her panties... So, was he only doing this when she was an infant? I still think it's creepy. It's not moo...it was written in schillers book. I don't know about Patsy's childrearing at all, cause that is heresy anyway, I just find it disturbing is all..I felt like bringing it up]QUOTE]


Perhaps you want to do a bit more reading on the case. JB's "habits" regarding such things were quite different than most 6 year olds. She was known to ask any adult in the vicinity to "wipe" her after a bowel movement. Hardly what most 6 year olds would do.

FW has been unfairly dragged through the mud by the Ramsey's and their minions. He has been investigated seven ways to Sunday and there has never been an inkling that his behavior to JB, or any other child, was improper or "creepy" in any way.

Nor was he ever indicted by a Grand Jury or named a POI by any LE agency.

If you want "creepy" you do not need go outside of the Ramsey home to find it in this case.
 
Soiled underwear needs to be taken off immediately and the child needs to be cleaned. JB suffered some serious soiling and wetting issues, and for her age, that was pretty disturbing too. I guess the Rs could have kept her home and hid the problem, but for whatever reason, they didn't and JB was at the mercy of whoever she was around to help get her cleaned up. moo

I have been in such situations and found it very awkward ... maybe it is a man thing , I dont know.

When my daughter was young I had no issues with changing diapers , bathing etc ... pretty routine parenting stuff.

However for someone else's child it would be totally different (at least it was for me)

My family was good friends with a young widow with two girls ... one was 5 yrs and the other was 7 .... the 5 year old had been potty trained for several years but would not wipe herself ... she always called for someone to do it ... any time I was baby sitting I always got the older sister to do it .

I simply could not .... maybe I am old school or something , but she was not my family and I felt it would be inappropriate ... I do not think a male non-family member should be touching or even seeing any private parts of a child.

FW did the best he could at the time but probably felt awkward doing it .... he would be conflicted between being a responsible adult when Jonbenet was visiting his daugher and not wanting to cross the line in privacy issues.

If I was there I would probably let the child soil the underwear .

Just another reason men will never make good mothers .... :)
 
cherisa;9993702 [


Perhaps you want to do a bit more reading on the case. JB's "habits" regarding such things were quite different than most 6 year olds. She was known to ask any adult in the vicinity to "wipe" her after a bowel movement. Hardly what most 6 year olds would do.

FW has been unfairly dragged through the mud by the Ramsey's and their minions. He has been investigated seven ways to Sunday and there has never been an inkling that his behavior to JB, or any other child, was improper or "creepy" in any way.

Nor was he ever indicted by a Grand Jury or named a POI by any LE agency.

If you want "creepy" you do not need go outside of the Ramsey home to find it in this case.
as I said before I am just reading Perfect Murder, Perfect town lawerence Shillers book about the murder. As far as I know, everyone is suspect till someone is caught. I wouldn't let him "wipe" my daughter. I find it creepy, sorry if you don't jibe with that.
 
Hey there, Passin'

Just a reminder that the death of JBR is an unsolved case and there has been no one cleared or ruled out.
Plus, we chat and theorize here on WS regarding all cases. That's the point. To help seek justice for victims.


Bb a taste of honey
 
I have been in such situations and found it very awkward ... maybe it is a man thing , I dont know.

When my daughter was young I had no issues with changing diapers , bathing etc ... pretty routine parenting stuff.

However for someone else's child it would be totally different (at least it was for me)

My family was good friends with a young widow with two girls ... one was 5 yrs and the other was 7 .... the 5 year old had been potty trained for several years but would not wipe herself ... she always called for someone to do it ... any time I was baby sitting I always got the older sister to do it .

I simply could not .... maybe I am old school or something , but she was not my family and I felt it would be inappropriate ... I do not think a male non-family member should be touching or even seeing any private parts of a child.

FW did the best he could at the time but probably felt awkward doing it .... he would be conflicted between being a responsible adult when Jonbenet was visiting his daugher and not wanting to cross the line in privacy issues.

If I was there I would probably let the child soil the underwear .

Just another reason men will never make good mothers .... :)

I'm a woman and a mother, but I think your feelings and reluctance are understandable and very rational, Arnie M. I would be hesitant, too, if I were a man having to deal with a little girl; I would also be reluctant to deal with a 6-year old boy as well. If the child were not capable due to physical or mental reasons, I would prolly be less reluctant, but I would not want to be put in that position.

I remember telling my only child, a son, when he was about 3 yrs old, that no one other than mommy & daddy and his doctor was allowed to touch him "there" and "there." And I think a lot of parents have that same talk with their young children.

I guess the R's couldn't do that with their daughter. And what an egregious imposition on their friends.

All JMO.
 
Here's some detailed information concerning the birds and bees talk Patsy stated she had with JonBenet. The quote is from WS poster Ames in 2007.


Its in her 98 interview....if you haven't read it, and John's....you need to. Its really enlightning!!! I will try and find that part for you, because its a VERY LONG interview, and it would take some time to find it, if you haven't read it already, and know where to look for it.

Here ya go....from Patsy's 98 Interview..

24 TRIP DeMUTH: One more question.
25 If JonBenet was bothered by someone, do you
0095
1 think she would communicate that to you, or was
2 she a little more stoic about it, would keep it
3 to herself?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I think she would
5 have told because we had talked about all the
6 areas covered by your swim suit belong to
7 JonBenet. Not to anybody else. Mom can touch
8 those areas because, you know, and different
9 things, and Dr. Buff with mommy in the room,
10 those were the ground rules. Not daddy, not
11 Burke, not grampa, not anybody else but
12 JonBenet's, you know.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she have any
14 difficulty approaching you and talking to you
15 about maybe other children at school she was
16 having difficulty with, would she share those
17 kind of points?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Which one is it, she
20 would share?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: She did not have
22 difficulty. She will tell me everything.
23 TOM HANEY: While we are on the
24 subject, tell us a little bit about what you
25 did, not little, tell us what you told JonBenet
0096
1 and when and how did this start, about what
2 belongs to her and what's off limits and what
3 she would do?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess the
5 first time I started thinking about, you know,
6 you think kids are oh, to young to start talking
7 about that, but Pinky Barber, a friend of mine,
8 had been to a some kind of seminar on child
9 safety or something. And she wanted me to go
10 along and for some reason I couldn't attend with
11 her, so I discussed with her what -- you know,
12 she said well, that they spent some time talking
13 about how to talk with your children about
14 strangers and all that kind of stuff. And she
15 said I talked to my girls about it.
16 And I said you did? What did you
17 say? She said that's when this bathing suit
18 thing came up. She said I just tell them that
19 nobody touches you where the bathing suit
20 touches.
21 And I thought that was a really
22 great way to approach that, because, you know,
23 those little ones are -- there is boundaries,
24 you know. So JonBenet and I, I don't know,
25 maybe at bath time, maybe when I was putting on
0097
1 her bathing suit or something. You know, these
2 are JonBenet's private parts here, you know,
3 where the bathing suit touches and nobody ever
4 touches your private parts except mommy and
5 Dr. Buff with mommy in the room.
6 TOM HANEY: About when would you
7 have started conveying this idea to her?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably when she
9 was four.
10 TOM HANEY: And did you rehash it
11 with her, did you talk about it occasionally?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean it was
13 not a big, you know, deal. I mean Burke was
14 growing up, you know, becoming a little more
15 modest and so we would say, you know, you know,
16 that's Burke's bathroom. If he is in the
17 bathroom, you don't just barge in on somebody in
18 the bathroom. You knock and, you know. Those
19 kind of family kind of situations.
20 TOM HANEY: But her private parts,
21 as you were describing it, this wasn't I assume
22 a one-time conversation?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, I
24 probably mentioned it more than once. It wasn't
25 something I preached on every day, you know. It
0098
1 was kind of a --
2 TOM HANEY: Did she raise any
3 questions about that at the time or any time
4 since?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TOM HANEY: It was pretty clear to
7 her?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
9 TOM HANEY: And your rules were you
10 or Dr. Buff, if you were in the room?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.


And so, I believe that she would have told her mom, if Burke had tried to play dr. with her.
 
10 those were the ground rules. Not daddy, not
11 Burke, not grampa, not anybody else but
12 JonBenet's, you know.

This, to me is bizarre.
 
10 those were the ground rules. Not daddy, not
11 Burke, not grampa, not anybody else but
12 JonBenet's, you know.

This, to me is bizarre.

Q) How can you tell if PR is lying?
A) If her lips are moving.
 
10 those were the ground rules. Not daddy, not
11 Burke, not grampa, not anybody else but
12 JonBenet's, you know.

This, to me is bizarre.

I didnt see it that way myself ..... I see it in a different context ..... there are lots of things a family can do together that you would not do with strangers .... and then there are some things even family should not be doing ... i think that was PR's teaching to Jonbennet , .

For example .... dont take candy from strangers , but from mom dad grandpa or your brother is OK .... then PR draws a line when it comes to bathing suit areas ... there are different rules in such a case ... only mommy and the doctor .... nobody else should do that ... even if they are family.

I think Patsy taught it well .... she even taught Jonbenet to respect her brothers privacy by not barging into his bathroom .... I see all this as excellent teaching for the child.
 
I'm a woman and a mother, but I think your feelings and reluctance are understandable and very rational, Arnie M. I would be hesitant, too, if I were a man having to deal with a little girl; I would also be reluctant to deal with a 6-year old boy as well. If the child were not capable due to physical or mental reasons, I would prolly be less reluctant, but I would not want to be put in that position.

I remember telling my only child, a son, when he was about 3 yrs old, that no one other than mommy & daddy and his doctor was allowed to touch him "there" and "there." And I think a lot of parents have that same talk with their young children.

I guess the R's couldn't do that with their daughter. And what an egregious imposition on their friends.

All JMO.

Unfortunately, what we need to continue to remind ourselves about the R's......They were in no way like you and I. So what you or I would do is of no relevance to this case.
 
Actually, a mom would not even need to be touching the swimsuit bottom area of a six year old. They are capable of washing and drying their own bottoms.
 
I am probably drifting away from the topic of this thread but i think there could very well be an explaination for some of the evidence of things done to JB's vaginal canal as noted in the autopsy.

Was it not 33 different times PR took her daughter to the doctor with infections in that area .... would the doctor be required to internally examine those areas .... just thinking out loud , maybe that is where the abrasions originated.

i know for mature females this would be a routine procedure at the Dr's office ... what do they do with a young child ??? Would an internal examination be required ??

And as far as the source of the infections .... I would think the constant "poop in the underwear" could be the cause rather than from sexual abuse .

Any mothers out there have an opinion ??? Thanks.
 
My daughters or grand daughters have never had such problems, but I'd think that constant poop being wiped the wrong way would cause bladder infection more than vaginitis in a child.
 
I am probably drifting away from the topic of this thread but i think there could very well be an explaination for some of the evidence of things done to JB's vaginal canal as noted in the autopsy.

Was it not 33 different times PR took her daughter to the doctor with infections in that area .... would the doctor be required to internally examine those areas .... just thinking out loud , maybe that is where the abrasions originated.

i know for mature females this would be a routine procedure at the Dr's office ... what do they do with a young child ??? Would an internal examination be required ??

And as far as the source of the infections .... I would think the constant "poop in the underwear" could be the cause rather than from sexual abuse .

Any mothers out there have an opinion ??? Thanks.
Thirty-three visits for "infections in that area" would be alarming, but that is not the case according to her pediatrician.

Prime Time Live, 09.10.97:
DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) But what about those reports that JonBenet's pediatrician, Dr. Beuf, saw JonBenet 30 times in three years?

(From taped telephone conversation)

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Before your call, I sat down with her chart and counted. It was 27 times.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) This is the first time Dr. Beuf has gone over his records publicly.

(From taped telephone conversation) And is that unusual to see a child that many times?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Not with the kinds of problems which this child had. The majority of them were for sinus infections and for colds.

DIANE SAWYER: And by majority you mean?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Probably 20 of the lot. I counted three in which she'd complained of some pain in urination. And the rest of them were cold, strep throats, sinus infections.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) So many he said, there was some concern about asthma.

(From taped telephone conversation) How many times did you give her a vaginal examination?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Well, it was five or six times in that three-year period.

DIANE SAWYER: (voice-over) We asked him to specifically review all notes that might pertain. He agreed, citing the frenzy of uninformed speculation. Be warned, these are a doctor's clinical notes about a young patient.

September 1993 -- a call about vaginal redness, possibly associated with recent diarrhea.

April 1994 -- a visit about a problem perhaps related to the use of bubble bath, which can be an irritant.

October 1994 -- a routine physical. No problems noted, though some indication of occasional bedwetting. Dr. Beuf says 20 percent to 25 percent of children that age wet the bed.

March 1995 -- abdominal pain and fever. Tests and exam showed no problem.

August 1996 -- another routine physical with a vaginal exam. The doctor said everything checked out as normal. We asked what he made of this number of complaints?

(From taped telephone conversation) Would that be unusual?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: For a child that age, certainly not. They don't wipe themselves very well after they urinate. And it's something which usually is curable by having them take plain water baths or learning to wipe better. But if you have four-year-old kids, you know how hard that is. The amount of vaginitis which I saw on the child was totally consistent with little girls her age.

DIANE SAWYER: If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have seen it?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Probably. I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under anesthesia.

DIANE SAWYER: Did you see in any of these examinations any sign of possible sexual abuse?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: No, and I certainly would have reported it to the social service people if I had. That's something that all of us in pediatrics are very acutely aware of.
Source: http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/09101997bynumabcprimetime.htm
 
Mama2JML .... thank you for the clarification about the doctor visits

That brings another problem about the perceived sexual abuse that is always mentioned by the public ..... because the doctor said he saw no signs of abuse as late as August 1996

DIANE SAWYER: Did you see in any of these examinations any sign of possible sexual abuse?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: No, and I certainly would have reported it to the social service people if I had. That's something that all of us in pediatrics are very acutely aware of.
 
When my granddaughter was in first grade another child was bullying a group of children

My granddaughter did not tell her Mom, Dad, or grandparents. I would have bet she would have said something to one of us.

We did not find out until the principal called all the children that we being bullied and their parents into the office with the other child (bully) and her parents.

I would have bet good money that she would have told us or hinted at something but she never did. Maybe she was not bullied as much as some of the other children and thought nothing of it, I don't know. But she did not tell.

I know this is different than sexual abuse but still a case where I think not all children tell when you think they would have.
 
Mama2JML .... thank you for the clarification about the doctor visits

That brings another problem about the perceived sexual abuse that is always mentioned by the public ..... because the doctor said he saw no signs of abuse as late as August 1996
You're welcome. :)

Some experts believe there is evidence of previous sexual abuse; some don't. This is also true of RDIs & IDIs, and it's not necessarily a wedge issue. I'm on the fence. Regardless, if JB was the victim of repeated &/or ongoing sexual abuse, I don't think we can necessarily assume it's related to her murder. The theoretical probability pertaining to sexually abused children, especially little girls, is too high to make that leap, IMO.
 
You're welcome. :)

Some experts believe there is evidence of previous sexual abuse; some don't. This is also true of RDIs & IDIs, and it's not necessarily a wedge issue. I'm on the fence. Regardless, if JB was the victim of repeated &/or ongoing sexual abuse, I don't think we can necessarily assume it's related to her murder. The theoretical probability pertaining to sexually abused children, especially little girls, is too high to make that leap, IMO.
So she may not have been sexually molested?!?
 

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