John Fernie

[Tawny]

This doctor did vaginal examinations at "routine physicals" of a small child? My child is 4 and has never had a vaginal examination. ???

 

[questfortrue]

This doctor did vaginal examinations at "routine physicals" of a small child? My child is 4 and has never had a vaginal examination. ???

Informative article regarding the findings of Dr. Robert McCann and the findings of sexual abuse can be found at: http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-sexual-abuse.htm

The interpretation of the injuries was developed in an interview with Cyril Wecht who spoke about the case and provided a very clear explanation. That can be found in the media links section of this forum, latest informative post by sandstorm.

The R lawyers were present in the studio observing the interview between Dr. B. and Diane Sawyer Unknown if that put any pressure on him. However, he was a very close family friend of the R’s and was there on the night of the 26th, taking a walk with JR and providing medication to PR. In Kolar’s book it is stated that he never ordered an internal exam of JB. The most perplexing issue regarding Dr. B was his adamant avowal that he would burn JB’s records before turning them over to LE. IIRC, what he did was place them in a safe deposit box, then later claimed that someone stole them from the safe-deposit box. He must have misplaced his safe deposit key and his ID and someone wearing a Dr. B disguise went into the safe deposit box. That’s the only thing I can figure. moo

 

[Frigga]

This doctor did vaginal examinations at "routine physicals" of a small child? My child is 4 and has never had a vaginal examination. ???

Exactly! My daughters are 10 and 12 and have never had one? What on earth? JB had had one twice?

 

[cherisa]

I really don't find it weird that Fw didn't see jBs body in the wc, my husband can see a deer 200 ft away in the woods in the dark and I can't see one 3 ft in front of me in broad daylight.

 

[Tawny]

I really don't find it weird that Fw didn't see jBs body in the wc, my husband can see a deer 200 ft away in the woods in the dark and I can't see one 3 ft in front of me in broad daylight.

Even more of a phenomenon, my husband can see a deer 200 ft away in the woods but can't see the shoes he's looking for in the middle of the living room floor :facepalm:

Back to topic

 

[DeeDee249]

I am probably drifting away from the topic of this thread but i think there could very well be an explaination for some of the evidence of things done to JB's vaginal canal as noted in the autopsy.

Was it not 33 different times PR took her daughter to the doctor with infections in that area .... would the doctor be required to internally examine those areas .... just thinking out loud , maybe that is where the abrasions originated.

i know for mature females this would be a routine procedure at the Dr's office ... what do they do with a young child ??? Would an internal examination be required ??

And as far as the source of the infections .... I would think the constant "poop in the underwear" could be the cause rather than from sexual abuse .

Any mothers out there have an opinion ??? Thanks.

This has been discussed before here, but NO - an internal (or pelvic) exam would NEVER be a part of a child's exam, even for vaginitis. This type of exam requires the use of a speculum. And a child would always be anesthetized at that age for an exam like that. There are more serious medical conditions that could require a pelvic exam on a child- vaginitis would not be one of them. However, had a sexual assault been suspected, an internal exam would have revealed the erosion of the hymen, as well as any internal bruising or bleeding.
Wearing soiled or wet underwear could certainly cause vaginitis. So could digital penetration.

 

[RocknessMonster]

10 those were the ground rules. Not daddy, not
11 Burke, not grampa, not anybody else but
12 JonBenet's, you know.

This, to me is bizarre.

You know I find this extremely bizarre too. If I had a child and was having this conversation with them, I would never think to include a spouse or a grandparent. I would absolutely trust the life and well being of my child with my parents and would know beyond any doubt that they would never bring them harm. Why include people in this way unless you think they possibly needed to be included in the conversation?

One more thing, what was this "intervention" for JB that was discussed in a previous post? Never read anything about it.

 

[borndem]

This doctor did vaginal examinations at "routine physicals" of a small child? My child is 4 and has never had a vaginal examination. ???

Well, Tawny, I'll say what prolly most of us are thinking.... neither did our 4 y/o children. Verrrry unusual I think, as you do.

I feel like it must go back to her possibly still being in "pull up" diapers and possibly wearing them wet or soiled for longer than she should. Or it could be that she didn't clean herself properly or as often as she should have. I guess that can lead to problems of pain, or infection of some type, perhaps. I only had a son, so I can't really speak to that...

It just sounds odd to me...

 

[txsvicki]

My children's pediatrician just took a quick peak at the bottom during physicals. He didn't touch the girls or look into the labia at all. He checked for tumors on boys and checked the abdominal area.

 

[Mama2JML]

Informative article regarding the findings of Dr. Robert McCann and the findings of sexual abuse can be found at: http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-sexual-abuse.htm

The interpretation of the injuries was developed in an interview with Cyril Wecht who spoke about the case and provided a very clear explanation. That can be found in the media links section of this forum, latest informative post by sandstorm.

The R lawyers were present in the studio observing the interview between Dr. B. and Diane Sawyer Unknown if that put any pressure on him. However, he was a very close family friend of the R’s and was there on the night of the 26th, taking a walk with JR and providing medication to PR. In Kolar’s book it is stated that he never ordered an internal exam of JB. The most perplexing issue regarding Dr. B was his adamant avowal that he would burn JB’s records before turning them over to LE.

I've not heard this. When/where was this statement made?...

IIRC, what he did was place them in a safe deposit box, then later claimed that someone stole them from the safe-deposit box. He must have misplaced his safe deposit key and his ID and someone wearing a Dr. B disguise went into the safe deposit box. That’s the only thing I can figure. moo

I believe the "stolen medical records" story, attributed to the Rs &/or Dr. Beuf, is a rumor that's been repeated over the years, so many believe it to be true. The rumor evolved from this excerpt of DOI:

"As a security precaution after JonBenet's murder, Dr. Beuf had put all her medical records in a safety deposit box at the bank. Later he discovered that the box had been opened, even though the bank had absolutely guaranteed it could only be opened with the client's personal key. Dr. Beuf was livid.

Obviously, the bank had improperly opened the box and was responsible, so Dr. Beuf contacted the bank, demanding an explanation of what had occurred. To my knowledge, the bank never completely explained how or why the locked box had been opened. I don't know what happened, but I have a hunch that the police thought he might have been lying about JonBenet's records. Either the police or the media helped themselves to her confidential medical information." (DOI, p. 148)

According to DOI, the safe deposit box was "improperly opened", but there's no indication that JonBenet's medical records were removed/stolen.

 

[Mama2JML]

So she may not have been sexually molested?!?

Some experts believe she was the victim of sexual abuse, prior to the evening of her murder, and others do not.

A basic overview can be found here:
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682469/Evidence of Prior Sexual Abuse

 

[Mama2JML]

This doctor did vaginal examinations at "routine physicals" of a small child? My child is 4 and has never had a vaginal examination. ???

Protocol for well-child exams includes an external check of the child's genitalia. Dr. Beuf did not conduct a "classic", gynecologist-type, pelvic exam. According to the interview linked previously:

"DIANE SAWYER: If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have seen it?

Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Probably. I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under anesthesia."
(Primetime Live, 09.10.97)

 

[questfortrue]

I've not heard this. When/where was this statement made?...

I believe the "stolen medical records" story, attributed to the Rs &/or Dr. Beuf, is a rumor that's been repeated over the years, so many believe it to be true. The rumor evolved from this excerpt of DOI:

"As a security precaution after JonBenet's murder, Dr. Beuf had put all her medical records in a safety deposit box at the bank. Later he discovered that the box had been opened, even though the bank had absolutely guaranteed it could only be opened with the client's personal key. Dr. Beuf was livid.

Obviously, the bank had improperly opened the box and was responsible, so Dr. Beuf contacted the bank, demanding an explanation of what had occurred. To my knowledge, the bank never completely explained how or why the locked box had been opened. I don't know what happened, but I have a hunch that the police thought he might have been lying about JonBenet's records. Either the police or the media helped themselves to her confidential medical information." (DOI, p. 148)

According to DOI, the safe deposit box was "improperly opened", but there's no indication that JonBenet's medical records were removed/stolen.

With courteous respect, anyone can go into a bank and review the security measures for safe deposit boxes. My family has had safe deposit boxes for decades. (In Colorado) A bank customer is given 2 keys and the bank retains a set. Two sets of different locks. To go into the box, one must engage the bank clerk, because the box cannot be opened without the second key. Nor can a bank employee open the box without the key of a customer. When I enquired what happened if a customer lost their key, I was told that the bank would have to engage a professional locksmith to unlock it (charging the customer for this), because otherwise the box was inaccessible by anyone. So I’ve no analysis and understanding of this explanation in DOI. It seems the claim in DOI was that someone looked at the records, or removed them. Not specifically stated “stolen”, except that the DOI report seems to point to someone at least looking at confidential records. And that is considered stealing of information. moo

The information about destruction of records (burning, shredding, IDK) came from a tv interview with Dr. B. Doubt there’s a link still available. It can be researched on websleuths, as at least a couple of the longtime posters here have remembered this.

 

[Mendara]

That is an interesting line of thought, DeeDee. I have long suspected that the Ramsey's had help with the staging, even though there is no proof of that. The staging seems to be a group effort, and I could see some of the Ramsey close friends being involved with that. Another thing that has always bothered me is how quickly those friends arrived that morning after the 911 call, almost as if it was all planned in advance for them to come over and provide cover for the Ramsey's while the police were there. That would include FW. I suspect the 911 call was not made spontaneously as PR claims but was carefully planned and orchestrated. PR, JR and I suspect close friends were all involved in this.

I just can't believe more than one person knew about this crime, the saying "A secret can only be kept between two people when one of them is is dead" rings in my ear. People talk, they drink, they confess, they change loyalties, they feel guilty, they blackmail, they make anonymous tips.

This was one person or two and one is dead. MO

 

[Arnie M]

Nobody can open your safe deposit box unless they steal your keys and impersonate you at the bank and carry your identification and fake your signature .... all highly unlikely.

And if the bank or someone hired a locksmith to drill out the locks you would know immediately because your own key would no longer work.

Even if your parents leave you everything in a will including contents of a safe deposit box it is a long drawn out procedure to get it even though you have the keys.

Our mom had a s.d. box for valuables (good) but also kept her will and funeral arrangements there (not good) , it took 4 people three days of legalese , court papers , death certificates , for the family to have access .... and even then it had to be witnessed by a notary , bank officials , and even then all we could get was her will and funeral info .... the rest went back in the box until the final estate was settled a year later.

 

[BBB167893]

Q) How can you tell if PR is lying?
A) If her lips are moving.

While I certainly appreciate the humor of that post, Chelly, you may well be right. We only have PR's word, after-the-fact, that she even HAD that conversation with JB.

 

[wengr]

While I certainly appreciate the humor of that post, Chelly, you may well be right. We only have PR's word, after-the-fact, that she even HAD that conversation with JB.

Yep, if she did indeed have that conversation - I find that somewhat disturbing.
And
if she did not have that conversation, and is lying to authorities about it - I find that somewhat disturbing.

 

[Cherry]

Just my thought LE were prevented from having the power to obtain phone records. JMO

Question is can they be obtained now? In any way? Can any other PC info already in custody also be looked at with new eyes? Were PC's removed from the home as I've forgotten

 

[otg]

You're welcome. :loser:

Some experts believe there is evidence of previous sexual abuse; some don't. This is also true of RDIs & IDIs, and it's not necessarily a wedge issue. I'm on the fence. Regardless, if JB was the victim of repeated &/or ongoing sexual abuse, I don't think we can necessarily assume it's related to her murder. The theoretical probability pertaining to sexually abused children, especially little girls, is too high to make that leap, IMO.

It's true that there are "experts" who deny that there is proof of prior sexual abuse. I believe all of those who do simply say that there is not enough evidence for them to conclude decisively that there was indeed prior instances. I don't think any of them say they believe there was no prior molestation, which is a little different. (If I'm wrong on that, I'll concede if you point it out to me.)

So instead of relying on "expert opinion", I highly recommend reading the AR for yourself and deciding. I have. And I have no doubt she had been molested prior to (and on) the night she died (but then, I don't claim to be an expert).

But considering that she died during one of these molestations (for lack of a better word), I don't see how anyone can see this as anything other than related to her death. Theoretical probabilities of how many children are molested have no relation to the circumstances around the death of one particular child.

In a nutshell, she was sexually abused just prior to her being killed from bludgeoning and strangulation. It was related by circumstance.

 

[BBB167893]

Mama2JML .... thank you for the clarification about the doctor visits

That brings another problem about the perceived sexual abuse that is always mentioned by the public ..... because the doctor said he saw no signs of abuse as late as August 1996

He also said he never CHECKED, Arnie M. By his own admission, he never performed an internal exam. He wouldn't be the first pediatrician to miss signs of abuse. Google the name "Ricky Holland" sometime!