John & the Basement

[UKGuy]

Thanks UKGuy. If that is wholly the truth maybe JonBenet had on pull-ups and wanted to hide them with the size 12 pair of Wednesday Bloomies.

I'd buy the Ramsey's story except there were no other size 12s found in the panty drawer where Patsy said the size 12s should be. Alternatively, they were not found downstairs as a wrapped Christmas gift (which was their original function).

The Ramseys returned the missing size 12s to the cops many months after they moved to Atlanta, saying they had found them in a packing box from the move from Boulder.

If we accept the Ramseys knew nothing about the panties, maybe JonBenet had wet her pull-ups, then the melee started that caused the head wound and someone forget to put more pull-ups on JonBenet and instead just pulled up the size 12 panty she already wore.

Would either parent recognize the overly large panty under the circumstances -- maybe not. However, there's no way the criminalists missed retrieving the remaining panties if they were in the panty drawer as Patsy said. That just isn't going to happen unless they were so well hidden no one could think to look in a particular place. There would be no reason for an Intruder to take time to hide the remaining size 12s. An Intruder wouldn't have cared.

Something is still rotten in Denmark.

BOESP,

Thanks UKGuy. If that is wholly the truth maybe JonBenet had on pull-ups and wanted to hide them with the size 12 pair of Wednesday Bloomies.

Thats the Ramsey version of the truth. The only problem is that Patsy was caught out stating she placed all the new pairs of size-12's into JonBenet's bathroom panty drawer, yet none was discovered there, yet later in time they are found in some packing crate, well how convenient is that?

The size-12's place the Ramsey's in the frame because no intruder would know about or even consider redressing her in them. Also the size-12's were not in JonBenet's bedroom since that was turned over, so just where did they originate from?

If JonBenet was wearing pullups then who removed them, the parents never noticed any, when they placed her to bed?

The function of the size-12 bloomies from the stagers perspective is simply to cover up her sexual assault, whilst appearing like normal underwear, that worked for a while. Whilst there were female investigators present during the autopsy, I have never heard if any remarked about the size being unusual?

 

[BOESP]

Apparently Lin Wood has done a good job of intimidating them. Such cowards. He did the same with Wendy Murphy and she outed it on Fox TV. We did not hear from him again on the subject. When is someone going to go on the record besides Wendy and tell Lin to take his best shot.

Do you think the Lawrence book will actually be out on December 1st. His website says it has been released.

I'd forgotten about Lawrence. I don't know when it is scheduled to be published. Wonder if there is anything new to say?

 

[BOESP]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Makes me think of the book "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" which translates to me as "right time, right place".

 

[coloradokares]

No, they don't care.

On the Anniversary Special of JB's Murder....on "48 Hours".....it was stated that there is STILL A WAREHOUSE FULL of evidence that has not even been looked at yet. A few other posters saw the show and heard them say that too.....so it wasn't that I was hearing things. I believe that BOESP and Solace are just two of them...there are more, though...that heard it and can vouch for me. So, the fact that John has not been re-questioned....is no shock to me. Boulder is a place unlike any other...that's for sure.

That is because of the DA there. We really need to get rid of Lacey so this case can get the unbiased attention it deserves. Thats my opinion and it is not likely to chance till eternity rolls!!!!

 

[Solace]

That is because of the DA there. We really need to get rid of Lacey so this case can get the unbiased attention it deserves. Thats my opinion and it is not likely to chance till eternity rolls!!!!

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.:bang:

 

[JMO8778]

BOESP,
Nobody is saying, both John and Patsy never noticed, they say we would have noticed if she had not been wearing any, and Patsy has no recollection of changing or directing JonBenet to change her underwear.

I've always suspected their 'we have to stick together on this,K.I.S.S.' story about JB falling asleep in the car on the way home was more than just an easy way to keep their stories in line...I suspect something about JB's body (like the vag. trauma) was possibly another reason they were told to say that by their attorneys,which I think they were.Neither wanted to place themselves in a time slot with her being awake after they returned.IOW-whatever happened to her had to be by an intruder..or had to have been done at the White's.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

The difference might explain why JonBenet was missing underwear, then again you would expect to find a wednesday pair in the washing basket, or on her floor etc. Also if as you suggest Wet is wet and Patsy is resigned to JonBenet wetting the bed, so allows her to continue wearing her underwear, then why should she become so enraged when she does wet the bed?

I am confused. JBR wasn't found with missing underwear. Or do you mean the fact that her REAL undies were missing? As I said, the panties themselves are not much more to wash if the bed is wet and as a mom,if my child wet the bed it would not be a reason not to put panties on her. Most little girls want to wear panties, whether to bed or not.
My thought on why PR became enraged at this particular incidence of bedwetting (assuming it was that and not some other trigger for the rage) would lean towards JBR possibly refusing to make a potty run and then wetting the bed just one time too many, and an exhausted, possibly tipsy, stressed PR having that ONE last chore to deal with before a trip she didn't want to make.

 

[JMO8778]

I am confused. JBR wasn't found with missing underwear. Or do you mean the fact that her REAL undies were missing? As I said, the panties themselves are not much more to wash if the bed is wet and as a mom,if my child wet the bed it would not be a reason not to put panties on her. Most little girls want to wear panties, whether to bed or not.
My thought on why PR became enraged at this particular incidence of bedwetting (assuming it was that and not some other trigger for the rage) would lean towards JBR possibly refusing to make a potty run and then wetting the bed just one time too many, and an exhausted, possibly tipsy, stressed PR having that ONE last chore to deal with before a trip she didn't want to make.

this is what CK and I were talking about on the other thread..that Patsy had some definite bpd behavior going on..if you have never seen someone like this in action,they can snap at the drop of a hat ! Sometimes outsiders don't see it because they can be so manipulative and have the ability to hide it well when around others.(think about it..they HAVE to be !).They can come across as being utterly charming. But get them home and around ppl they're comfortable with,and they will 'cut loose',so to speak.And I think Patsy did just that.

 

[UKGuy]

I've always suspected their 'we have to stick together on this,K.I.S.S.' story about JB falling asleep in the car on the way home was more than just an easy way to keep their stories in line...I suspect something about JB's body (like the vag. trauma) was possibly another reason they were told to say that by their attorneys,which I think they were.Neither wanted to place themselves in a time slot with her being awake after they returned.IOW-whatever happened to her had to be by an intruder..or had to have been done at the White's.

JMO8778,
I suspect disagreement, which is why they do what you suggest, agree upon a version of events that minimises their involvement.

Although Patsy and John were there when JonBenet was dressed for bed, both never noticed if she was wearing any underwear, not even the color, what does that tell you?

Consider the parents interview answer e.g. we would have noticed if she had not been wearing any. So it must be fair to assume JonBenet was wearing underwear?

Now if JonBenet had been wearing a pair of size-12 bloomies, the parents could not have missed them due to their size, note size was not advanced as something to consider, only if there were none.

The case where there might have been none is where they might have been removed, say at the White's to facilitate an assault, but the Ramsey's state they would have noticed the absence of underwear.

So do you think Patsy would really miss if JonBenet had been wearing size-12 bloomies?

 

[UKGuy]

I am confused. JBR wasn't found with missing underwear. Or do you mean the fact that her REAL undies were missing? As I said, the panties themselves are not much more to wash if the bed is wet and as a mom,if my child wet the bed it would not be a reason not to put panties on her. Most little girls want to wear panties, whether to bed or not.
My thought on why PR became enraged at this particular incidence of bedwetting (assuming it was that and not some other trigger for the rage) would lean towards JBR possibly refusing to make a potty run and then wetting the bed just one time too many, and an exhausted, possibly tipsy, stressed PR having that ONE last chore to deal with before a trip she didn't want to make.

DeeDee249,
What I am suggesting is that JonBenet was not discovered wearing the same pair of panties that she wore to the White's?

This does not preclude her from undressing for bed and removing the pair she wore to the White's, but this pair should have been recovered during the forensic search?

Now taking your case: as a mom,if my child wet the bed it would not be a reason not to put panties on her. , so lets assume Patsy removed a wet pair of pants and replaced them with either another pair or the size-12's, then proceeded to wash and dry the size-6's. Assuming these were a Wednesday pair, then these should be available somewhere in house, e.g. not missing?


Also Patsy stated in interview that she placed the size-12 bloomies into JonBenet's bathroom panty drawer e.g. this makes them unavailable as a xmas present, and precludes gift-wrapping. Patsy's line is that maybe JonBenet dressed herself in the size-12's, but the police state that no size-12's were recovered from the bathroom panty drawer, there were varying sizes, but no size-12's. Again Patsy indirectly is confirming JonBenet was not placed to bed wearing size-12's. Which should dispel the notion that JonBenet was wearing them over her pullups?

The toilet rage theory is a possible explanation, but since there was so much toilet related evidence left behind, whilst other evidence was removed or staged. I tend to think some other trigger led to her death?

 

[BOESP]

Since drops of JonBenet's blood and/or blood smears were found on the size that implies she had on the size 12s at some point during her attack or else she was still bleeding after the wipe-down.

What reasons would explain the size 12s being there in the first place? JonBenet (or Patsy) put them over pull-ups before going to the Whites; she or Patsy put them on over pull-ups before going to bed because JonBenet wanted to wear "big girl" panties to bed; they were put on upstairs so JonBenet would have on clean underwear and in the excitement Patsy/John didn't notice they were too big; they were put on JonBenet in the basement as an after-thought because Patsy didn't want JonBenet found without clean underwear for whatever reason(s).

JonBenet may have had on panties at the time of the attack but it's unlikely an Intruder would take time to put fresh panties on her after the fact. Almost certainly an Intruder wouldn't spend time carefully peeking through gift-wrapped packages looking for panties. I suppose an Intruder might dig out a pair of size 12 from the upstairs drawer but they aren't going to rummage through an entire panty drawer and then by plan or luck remove all size 12s except the pair JonBenet wore.

 

[Solace]

Since drops of JonBenet's blood and/or blood smears were found on the size that implies she had on the size 12s at some point during her attack or else she was still bleeding after the wipe-down.

What reasons would explain the size 12s being there in the first place? JonBenet (or Patsy) put them over pull-ups before going to the Whites; she or Patsy put them on over pull-ups before going to bed because JonBenet wanted to wear "big girl" panties to bed; they were put on upstairs so JonBenet would have on clean underwear and in the excitement Patsy/John didn't notice they were too big; they were put on JonBenet in the basement as an after-thought because Patsy didn't want JonBenet found without clean underwear for whatever reason(s).

JonBenet may have had on panties at the time of the attack but it's unlikely an Intruder would take time to put fresh panties on her after the fact. Almost certainly an Intruder wouldn't spend time carefully peeking through gift-wrapped packages looking for panties. I suppose an Intruder might dig out a pair of size 12 from the upstairs drawer but they aren't going to rummage through an entire panty drawer and then by plan or luck remove all size 12s except the pair JonBenet wore.

I think it was purely an accident. Do you know how insane they had to be. How do you do something like this and not mess up. You can't. Just the act of carrying her to the basement is insane enough. How do you do that. I would rather face the music than defile her like that. I could not stand it. I know I could not stand carrying her to the basement, forget the rest, never happening. The two of them are incredible and that is not meant in a nice way. They did this thing to stay out of jail - because they knew that the head injury was going to look like she was violently pushed and they would be questioned. They could feel that crack in her skull - and they planned the rest.

We go along discussing this case or at least I do and every once in a while I realize the depravity of the whole thing and it is mind boggling that two people who had no history of this would succumb to taking care of themselves in the end rather than facing up to what happened and trying to save her. It is incredible.

 

[BOESP]

... We go along discussing this case or at least I do and every once in a while I realize the depravity of the whole thing and it is mind boggling that two people who had no history of this would succumb to taking care of themselves in the end rather than facing up to what happened and trying to save her. It is incredible.

You hit the nail on the head, in my opinion. Self-preservation is an amazing mechanism, especially if "self" is the main focus.

 

[Ames]

Trust me they turned that "hell hole" inside out there were NO Bloomies. You think the police and investigators missed them. Past Aunt Pam that place was sealed up tight to gather evidence. And they miss the bloomies that were so essential to the investigation. Not even they were that inept. Those boomies were either replaced or returned to the Ramesys by dead you know who that was in that house gathering funeral clothes and every other thing on the list. JMHO

Yep, that is what I meant by hiding them...I am sure that Aunt SPAMMY took them out with the "funeral clothes"...and the other "thousands" of items that she brought out.

 

[Squishified]

Yep, that is what I meant by hiding them...I am sure that Aunt SPAMMY took them out with the "funeral clothes"...and the other "thousands" of items that she brought out.

Who was the moron that let Aunt Pam in the house? I remember some of the officers thought it was wrong.

 

[Ames]

Who was the moron that let Aunt Pam in the house? I remember some of the officers thought it was wrong.

The person in charge...whoever that was, can't remember the name. They even let her wear a POLICE JACKET...so that she wouldn't draw attention to herself. Those Boulder Police must be quite the idiots...couldn't they just LOOK at her, and tell that she was NOT one of them? She just walked in there and purposefully contaminated a crime scene....not to mention, withholding evidence. She should have been arrested for that...and NOT allowed to just waltz in there and do it. Shoot...one of them even HELPED her carry out the stuff. How sweet...

 

[Squishified]

The person in charge...whoever that was, can't remember the name. They even let her wear a POLICE JACKET...so that she wouldn't draw attention to herself. Those Boulder Police must be quite the idiots...couldn't they just LOOK at her, and tell that she was NOT one of them? She just walked in there and purposefully contaminated a crime scene....not to mention, withholding evidence. She should have been arrested for that...and NOT allowed to just waltz in there and do it. Shoot...one of them even HELPED her carry out the stuff. How sweet...

I thought they were disguising Pam from the public. I thought the other officers knew who she was (?). I remember that some of them were upset with the idea.
And don't forget about the Happy Meal and the diet Coke with lots of ice.

 

[coloradokares]

Who was the moron that let Aunt Pam in the house? I remember some of the officers thought it was wrong.

The BPD allowed Aunt Pam dressed in a BPD uniform so as not to arouse attention to go in and gather ostensibily under the guise of getting clothes for the funeral a trunk and car full of items such as golfclubs and you name it. IMHO they should have prosecuted whoever the braintrust was that allowed that. Calls went down from the top of this whole thing. This was the Ramseys yes the Ramseys of Access Graphics and Lockheed etc. This was squelched from the get go. IMHO One day I pray the truth comes out just when the first calls were made. Exactly when they were already being advised as to handle this. These were powerful people in Boulder. I cant wait for Judiths husbands book.

 

[Ames]

I thought they were disguising Pam from the public. I thought the other officers knew who she was (?). I remember that some of them were upset with the idea.
And don't forget about the Happy Meal and the diet Coke with lots of ice.

I am quite sure that some of them knew who she was, and you are right they were upset with the idea.

That Happy Meal and Diet Coke with lots of ice...just kills me. I don't know about YOU...but, if MY niece had of been brutally murdered...the very LAST thing on my mind would be...a "Happy Meal, and a diet Coke, with lots of ice".

 

[Squishified]

I am quite sure that some of them knew who she was, and you are right they were upset with the idea.

That Happy Meal and Diet Coke with lots of ice...just kills me. I don't know about YOU...but, if MY niece had of been brutally murdered...the very LAST thing on my mind would be...a "Happy Meal, and a diet Coke, with lots of ice".

And wasn't this after she took off the gloves like they were radioactive or something?? The whole Paugh family is really weird.