JonBenet's Skull Fractures: The Weapon

[otg]

Heres why I dont think it was a Mag Light. I'm a pretty strong guy at 5'8 and 195 lbs. I also used to frame houses when I was a younger so my wrists are strong from swinging a hammer.

I could probably hit someone with enough force to kill them with a Mag Light in my hand but after striking the skull that downward force would likely cause me to either drop the flashlight from the sting of impact or cause it shoot out of my hand as that downward force met resistance and was pushed upwards out of my hand. Even with strong wrists and a strong grip.

I know the flashlight was cleaned according to reports. Did they check it for signs of recent abrasion that could be caused by dropping it on a concrete floor?

I think it should be noted that striking with the fist (or an object in that fist) in an almost straight downward motion, its hard even for someone strong to generate a lot of force. Try it yourself...now compare it to a swing.

A hammer on the other hand with the added force of a wrist snapping down and a swing behind it could have made a hole like that easily. If the person swinging it were a carpenter or a construction worker they would have hit the skull dead-on as well, simply out of habit.

Carpenters call off-center or crooked swings that leave a dimple in the wood cats-asses.Ive seen men teased and even fired for doing it too often because a painter has to fill the holes with putty and its shoddy work.

Welcome to WS, zapped. I agree with you on your points about the amount of force that can be generated in the swing of an item held within the fist versus something that has enough length to it that it allows the additional force from the wrist action.

Interesting about the hammer dimple -- I had never heard it called that. But having made a few myself, I can see why it would be called that.

 

[otg]

Just for the record otg - she could have been pushed, shoved, pulled, tugged, fell, or otherwise put in motion toward an object that her head then struck. Someone may have fallen on her simultaneously. I don't necessarily think she was pushed but I do think it is a low velocity/high pressure wound. That means, imo, that she was in motion rather than the weapon/device being in motion.

I could be wrong.

I understand your lv/hp theory, but I’m not going to go into detail trying to explain it for you since I don’t really think it was the case. I am still allowing for it (and I try to remember to mention it) in case you can convince me otherwise. If you (or anyone else) can make the case, just call me Ross Perot and say I'm all ears.

 

[otg]

Or a vent for an older boiler that had been replaced? It's larger than most water heater vents.

Yes, I agree that it’s larger than most water heater vents that I’ve seen in my lifetime. But since I’ve lived all my life in the south, and since I don’t know how old the replaced water heater was, I don’t know what the old one may have looked like. If it was from a boiler instead of a water heater, well... again, I’m not very familiar with them because of my locale. But whether it was from an old style water heater or an outdated boiler doesn’t matter so much as the fact that whatever it was -- it’s gone now and they left the unneeded vent in place rather than repair the window it went through (plumbers don’t do the window repair).

 

[Darlene733510]

The item we are trying to identify - some of you mentioned a water softener. When I worked in the Drs office we had a water cooler there with paper cups for our patients to use. I am talking about the cooler where you put the 5 gallon water bottle in. It is plugged into the wall and keeps the water cold. Many of the people here in FL have them in there homes, in fact my neighbor has one.

 

[otg]

Could be, Darlene. I don't even know if it's really important. I just don't like seeing things in that area (relevant as it is) that we can't identify. But come to think of it, it would be an odd place to keep a water cooler if their claim was true that no one ever went down there. But then, it's also odd that they would have a freezer down there in the dark back spaces of the cellar covered by a bunch of old window screens when they had the walk-in freezer in the kitchen.

Just so much still unexplained. :sigh:

 

[BOESP]

I understand your lv/hp theory, but I’m not going to go into detail trying to explain it for you since I don’t really think it was the case. I am still allowing for it (and I try to remember to mention it) in case you can convince me otherwise. If you (or anyone else) can make the case, just call me Ross Perot and say I'm all ears.

Hey, I voted for Ross Perot.

I know we don't agree on that. On the other hand, I haven't read any details that convince me an 8" lineal fracture can be created when a relatively small displacement is present, such as the cylindrical section of skull at the back of JonBenet's head. There had to be a lot of pressure dispersed. To have been created by the swing of a weapon, that much pressure, imo, would have created a lot more damage to the brain tissue.

I think that since the fracture mostly moved in a forward pattern it is obvious that if she was struck she had to have been struck horizontally or from some convoluted position coming from the front. The fracture would follow the path of least resistance.

Regardless, someone got away with killing JonBenet and, ultimately, I think it was one or both parent(s).

 

[otg]

Hey, I voted for Ross Perot.

I know we don't agree on that.

You shouldn't state with certainty that which you don't know :thumb: . But then, I'd rather not get into politics here :silenced: . If we here at WS can't agree on what the evidence in this is telling us, we can be sure to find differences in political sway :fight: .

On the other hand, I haven't read any details that convince me an 8" lineal fracture can be created when a relatively small displacement is present, such as the cylindrical section of skull at the back of JonBenet's head. There had to be a lot of pressure dispersed.

If you don't know how the linear fracture was created by the cylindrical object, then either you haven't watched the video I posted on Youtube or you disagree with it. If you disagree, please tell me why. I think it makes perfect sense that the cylinder would, after displacing the fragments in the elliptical "hole", continue exerting pressure outwardly on the sides of the 1/2" portion. This would cause the force to push on the outsides of the voided area just like a wedge does in splitting a piece of wood.

To have been created by the swing of a weapon, that much pressure, imo, would have created a lot more damage to the brain tissue.

If you mean physical damage to the tissue itself, that would be from the comminuted fragments pushed down into the brain itself, and Meyer didn't mention it one way or another when he examined the brain in the area directly adjacent to the depressed fracture. Not to diminish the seriousness of such a blow, but the brain is actually very soft and able to absorb a great deal of shock. Add to that the fact that it has several layers of tissue and fluid between the skull bone and the cortex which act like a shock absorber:

The biggest danger from a blow to the head is the bleeding that happens when some of the blood vessels are broken and blood begins to build up within the layers protecting the brain. We know that that did happen to JonBenet because Meyer described it in the AR.

I think that since the fracture mostly moved in a forward pattern it is obvious that if she was struck she had to have been struck horizontally or from some convoluted position coming from the front. The fracture would follow the path of least resistance.

I can't say I agree or disagree with you on the first part of that. I don't necessarily think the disparity in length of the linear fractures is because of the direction of the blow as much as it is the resistance within the structure of the skull itself (which is what you said in the second part). I do think that part of the reason it is so short in the back portion is because it is right at the lambdoid suture, and the energy there was absorbed within it.

Regardless, someone got away with killing JonBenet and, ultimately, I think it was one or both parent(s).

I know.

 

[BOESP]

Oh no! When I said "I know we don't agree on that" I wasn't talking about Ross Perot. I was referring to whether or not JonBenet was struck with an object or whether she was the object in motion. Perot was in the first paragraph. I was referring to knowing that you and I don't agree whether or not she was struck or whether she struck something ... that disagreement I KNOW is certain.

I can't remember if I've seen the youtube video or not but if it's the one you posted on FFJ, I did see it. If JonBenet was struck, especially with a small diameter weapon, think how much of the energy would travel back up the weapon and into the hand of the person striking her. If she had been hit horizontally, the fracture, imo, would be circumferential (left-to-right) rather than lineal, traveling mostly toward the front of her head.

I read every thing you post otg, or try too. In fact, I study what you say. It is certainly possible someone swung a weapon and hit JonBenet. I just think it's a low velocity/high pressure wound. Steve Thomas's theory fits that best imo. In the end, it doesn't really matter what I think.

 

[otg]

Oh no! When I said "I know we don't agree on that" I wasn't talking about Ross Perot. I was referring to whether or not JonBenet was struck with an object or whether she was the object in motion. Perot was in the first paragraph.

Oops! :facepalm:

I can't remember if I've seen the youtube video or not but if it's the one you posted on FFJ, I did see it. If JonBenet was struck, especially with a small diameter weapon, think how much of the energy would travel back up the weapon and into the hand of the person striking her. If she had been hit diagonally, the fracture, imo, would be circumferential (left-to-right) rather than lineal, traveling mostly toward the front of her head.

I mentioned once before that we needed to talk about "sweet spots". Looks like it's about time.

I read every thing you post otg, or try too. In fact, I study what you say. It is certainly possible someone swung a weapon and hit JonBenet. I just think it's a low velocity/high pressure wound. Steve Thomas's theory fits that best imo. In the end, it doesn't really matter what I think.

It DOES matter what you think. If you can convince me or anyone else that you are right, and it leads to us figuring this thing out -- it matters. I don't know that I'm right about anything. Just like you, I'm simply trying to figure it out. Our trying to do that is the only justice JonBenet will ever get, so don't ever think that.

I had thought that Garnett might be different than the DA's that Boulder had had in the past. I don't know if you know anything about the recent Sorensen case, but it seemed like a slam-dunk attempted murder. Here's the recent opening paragraph of this news story:

"Boulder County prosecutors have dismissed attempted-murder and assault charges against a Nederland woman accused of hitting her boyfriend in the head with a flashlight last November, saying they did not think they could get a conviction in the case."
​

Sound like anyone we know?

BOESP, it DOES matter what you, and what everyone here, thinks.

 

[otg]

Background on the Sorensen case:
http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-...attempted-murder-nederland-flashlight-beating

(Note that the attack was done with a Maglite, and take note of the amount of blood and lacerations to the victim described in the article.)

"When an officer arrived on scene, he found the victim -- identified as Tyrone Lee, 53 -- lying in a large pool of blood coming from the back of his head. He suffered nine deep lacerations to his skull and two fractures to his vertebrae."
​

 

[BOESP]

Oops! :facepalm:

No problem. I don't talk politics or religion. :scared:

I mentioned once before that we needed to talk about "sweet spots". Looks like it's about time.

"Sweet spot" makes me think of a baseball bat, which would be my choice of weapon (if I believed she was struck with a weapon).

<snip>I had thought that Garnett might be different than the DA's that Boulder had had in the past. I don't know if you know anything about the recent Sorensen case, but it seemed like a slam-dunk attempted murder. Here's the recent opening paragraph of this news story:

"Boulder County prosecutors have dismissed attempted-murder and assault charges against a Nederland woman accused of hitting her boyfriend in the head with a flashlight last November, saying they did not think they could get a conviction in the case."
​

Sound like anyone we know?

Garnett sounds like verse three of the same old song.

 

[BOESP]

Background on the Sorensen case:
http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-...attempted-murder-nederland-flashlight-beating

(Note that the attack was done with a Maglite, and take note of the amount of blood and lacerations to the victim described in the article.)

"When an officer arrived on scene, he found the victim -- identified as Tyrone Lee, 53 -- lying in a large pool of blood coming from the back of his head. He suffered nine deep lacerations to his skull and two fractures to his vertebrae."
​

Notice the "nine deep lacerations." JonBenet had no noticeable external lacerations. That's a difference. Maybe her hair padded her head but if she was hit with great pressure by an object, it seems her scalp would likely break.

I'd say Tyrone Lee's "large pool of blood" was due to the number of lacerations but, apparently, no blood pooled externally around JonBenet at all. It seems likely that if she were struck with a weapon with enough force to do the damage we have seen then her scalp would likely be damaged and probably broken and bleeding.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Just curious what kind of wound you think it was?

Someone suggested it was was a result of her head hitting something rather than something hitting her head.

To me it looks like she was bashed in the head with something sizable.

 

[RANCH]

Just curious what kind of wound you think it was?

Someone suggested it was was a result of her head hitting something rather than something hitting her head.

To me it looks like she was bashed in the head with something sizable.

What was said about the head wound in the autopsy report? Were they able to come to any kind of conclusion on what caused it?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Let me look it up. I know it was a large wound let me get the report. I have it saved.. BRB.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf
]
States the wound was 7x4

 

[RANCH]

http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf
]
States the wound was 7x4

Yes, and the skull fracture was 8.5 inches in length. No mention of what could be the cause of these injuries. No mention of a possible weapon.

Thanks for posting the report.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I try to gather the factual info to study. Reports, Evidence..

YW!

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

So I found a photo of the skull itself at autopsy..

I think it looks like she was hit with something. Not that her head hit something. It looks more deliberate than that.

 

[RANCH]

I try to gather the factual info to study. Reports, Evidence..

YW!

I agree. That's the best way to go about it. It is a rather large and severe head injury. Doesn't sound like a fall to me.