JonBenet's Skull Fractures: The Weapon

[DeeDee249]

The head injury was not visible. The perp of course, knew he/she had bashed her, but even the perp had no way of knowing the extent of the injury. There was no blood, and no scalp laceration. Nothing to indicate WHY JB was dying/dead. The garrote was left in place to SHOW why she was dead. Otherwise, just looking at her, there would seem to be no reason.

I have always felt that the parents were unaware that ALL dead children are autopsied. This is required even in cases where the cause of death is known and not criminal in nature (aka illness or car accident, etc). I think they felt that IF the garrote was there, it would be an OBVIOUS cause of death and there would not BE an autopsy. And the sexual assault/abuse would remain hidden and unknown.

 

[redheadedgal]

But JonBenet also had an 8 1/2" linear fracture running anterior and posterior from the depressed skull fracture.

oh i know... i was just posting results from blows to the head with the three weapons we've been discussing (hammer, maglite and golf club)... i think wengr's comment about "physics" could explain any differences if jonbenet was bashed with any of the above ...

wengr-- glad you are ok too

 

[M.James]

...The Rs reported nothing was missing, and this weapon, more so than jewelry, would be what they looked for...so no intruder took the weapon. In other words...murder weapon and supplies came from house, ransom note and supplies came from house, pineapple came from house, flashlight came from house, injury weapon came from house. And unless they themselves got rid of it, it was still there. all moo

*Hi, dodie,

I think this is interesting. Is it true that the Ramseys reported nothing missing?
Is there something that shows where they were asked, and responded? An interview, or statement of some kind? I Googled around to try to find something, but there are just so many things out there it is hard to pinpoint anything on Google unless it has some good key words.
I'd really appreciate reading this if you know just where to look without going through a lot of trouble.

Thank you.

 

[dodie20]

I read it in the interview between PR and TT. Here's the quote. TT: Okay. Patsy, after the 26th have you guys been able to do any type of inventory of the house. Have you come u with anything missing at all?

PR: No, I haven’t been back.

TT: Okay. Has John done anything like that? Any type of inventories to see if anything is missing?

PR: I don’t, not to my knowledge.

TT: Look at it like big jewelry items, anything like that something that . . .

PR: Yeah.

TT: . . .you guys might see as obvious that was missing.

PR: No.


The whole interview is http://www.acandyrose.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm. As usual, PR's answers are a little disingenuous and not straight forward, but here was my point. Since they were the type of people who kept up with their things, (like JR requesting his certain golf clubs), they would /should have noticed something missing. This was of the utmost importance, because #1, their daughter was bashed with an undetermined weapon that logically came from that house, (everything else did), and #2, if an intruder took the weapon,(or anything for that matter), finding it would lead to the killer. For instance, it could have been in his car, his house, he could have pawned or sold it, a friend might have noticed him in possession of a fancy golf club or expensive bat or diamond jewelry, when he didn't have any use or money for these things. moo

 

[M.James]

I read it in the interview between PR and TT. Here's the quote. TT: Okay. Patsy, after the 26th have you guys been able to do any type of inventory of the house. Have you come u with anything missing at all?

Thanks so much, dodie.

It's much later (April) than I thought it might be. I was likely just grasping at straws, anyway. You were of great help, not to mention spared me lots more searching.

Thank you.

 

[dodie20]

Thanks so much, dodie.

It's much later (April) than I thought it might be. I was likely just grasping at straws, anyway. You were of great help, not to mention spared me lots more searching.

Thank you.

This is what I took from this exchange. The Rs were not interested in pursuing an intruder theory or they would have made every effort to find him. And that would include going through their things, piece by piece, regardless of how much PR didn't want to go back in the house. They would have gone through all of their valuables, anything that could have been used as a weapon, anything of JB's that might have been taken as a souvenir, anything that could lead to the killer. I don't think this is too much to expect from parents, no matter how bereaved. In this interview, from the way it read because there was no audio, PR didn't seem concerned about anything missing, which is weird since they were operating under the 'assumption' that someone had broken in. They said this had to be an intruder but then didn't back that up with the normal follow up of trying to find him. In other words, they didn't practice what they preached. Yes, this is something we already knew, but I found this exchange especially interesting because it's a very strong indicator, IMO, that the Rs knew there was no intruder. all moo

 

[Darlene733510]

I can't get that head bash out of my mind. I even dreamt about it last night. I keep going back to when Burke mentioned the hammer. The mag lite seems reasonable because it was totally wiped clean, but I keep thinking of a ball peen hammer.
I also wonder about the way JB's hair was done up the way it was, with the hair gathered together in 2 places. Was it done that way to hide the head bash? If she was asleep, as they say, when they got home, why even bother with re-arranging her hair? We know she wasn't asleep because she ate the pineapple.

 

[wengr]

This is what I took from this exchange. The Rs were not interested in pursuing an intruder theory or they would have made every effort to find him. And that would include going through their things, piece by piece, regardless of how much PR didn't want to go back in the house. They would have gone through all of their valuables, anything that could have been used as a weapon, anything of JB's that might have been taken as a souvenir, anything that could lead to the killer. I don't think this is too much to expect from parents, no matter how bereaved. In this interview, from the way it read because there was no audio, PR didn't seem concerned about anything missing, which is weird since they were operating under the 'assumption' that someone had broken in. They said this had to be an intruder but then didn't back that up with the normal follow up of trying to find him. In other words, they didn't practice what they preached. Yes, this is something we already knew, but I found this exchange especially interesting because it's a very strong indicator, IMO, that the Rs knew there was no intruder. all moo

Yes. A parent would want to find something missing, as something missing could turn up at a pawnshop or otherwise link to the intruder. A parent in this situation would also know that the police cannot know if personal items went missing without the items being noted by the family. This is yet another example of the R's choosing to obfuscate instead of illuminate.

 

[dodie20]

I can't get that head bash out of my mind. I even dreamt about it last night. I keep going back to when Burke mentioned the hammer. The mag lite seems reasonable because it was totally wiped clean, but I keep thinking of a ball peen hammer.
I also wonder about the way JB's hair was done up the way it was, with the hair gathered together in 2 places. Was it done that way to hide the head bash? If she was asleep, as they say, when they got home, why even bother with re-arranging her hair? We know she wasn't asleep because she ate the pineapple.

I didn't dream about the head bash last night, but after I laid down something occurred to me, and it was on the same train of thought as yours. In an earlier thread, someone posted that Kolar, I believe, related BR's telling of the crime. In an earlier posted interview, BR said something about JB being bashed, but in the Kolar reference, he said that JB was hit with a hammer and then he simulated a striking motion and then simulated the motion again. So, I'm not sure what the experts have said, but I was wondering if JB was struck twice? and that's why it's so hard to match the injury with a weapon? because the injury wasn't caused by 1 blow?

 

[Darlene733510]

Why would BR even mention the hammer? Did he hear adults talking about it? You are right dodie20 - I also wonder if she was hit more than once, just as her brother indicated.
Of course if it was a hammer it would have disappeared or would have been wiped clean.

 

[UKGuy]

Why would BR even mention the hammer? Did he hear adults talking about it? You are right dodie20 - I also wonder if she was hit more than once, just as her brother indicated.
Of course if it was a hammer it would have disappeared or would have been wiped clean.

Darlene733510,
Burke Ramsey discussed how JonBenet was killed with Dog Stine, speculating on the detail and method of death.

Kinda macabre for a ten-year old, why might they be so interested?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

I can't get that head bash out of my mind. I even dreamt about it last night. I keep going back to when Burke mentioned the hammer. The mag lite seems reasonable because it was totally wiped clean, but I keep thinking of a ball peen hammer.
I also wonder about the way JB's hair was done up the way it was, with the hair gathered together in 2 places. Was it done that way to hide the head bash? If she was asleep, as they say, when they got home, why even bother with re-arranging her hair? We know she wasn't asleep because she ate the pineapple.

The hairdo has been talked about before, but it's been a while. This is something that I think is being made WAY too much of. I don't think her hairdo has anything to do with the crime at all. Here's why: JB was found with 2 ponytails- one as a topknot on top her head and one at the base of her neck. Patsy said herself that she used to pull JB's long hair into a ponytail at the base of her neck for bed so her long hair wouldn't tangle. I did the same thing with my own daughter's long hair.
And like Patsy, I sometimes pulled PART of her hair into a topknot ponytail, usually with a decorative ribbon or hair tie over the elastic, leaving the rest of her hair down long-JUST like JB had that day. If we got home late and my daughter was sleepy, I just pulled her long hair into the usual ponytail and left the topknot in place till morning. I think Patsy did the same thing. I don't think there was anything suspicious or unusual about it. The coroner noted there was a decorative red/black/white hair tie (his word) OVER a blue elastic. This is exactly what you'd have to do- the fabric hair tie wouldn't hold the hair as securely by itself, so you'd have to use an elastic too. There is a photo of JB at her parents' party on the 23rd and she has her hair in that topknot, with the rest down long. There is also a school photo of her in a cute navy "sailor-style" top with white piping and her hair is pulled up at the top with a large white bow.
Of all the things that seem odd in this crime, the double ponytails are not one of them, IMO.

 

[otg]

My apologies to fellow posters who might think I had abandoned the work I was doing on this. I hope you won't be disappointed in what I've been busy working on (besides the RL stuff that always comes up). Because it’s been a while (12-21-2012) since my last post in this series, I probably should review the main point I was trying to make which led me to where I am.

Parts-1 through -4 are all on the first page of this thread. But basically, despite the coroner’s reference to the depressed fracture as being a “roughly rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull”, I believe it is in fact oval shaped. I feel knowing this is essential to knowing what weapon was used to cause the head wound.

I became pretty convinced about all this back around August/September (2012). So in the back of my mind, I had this idea that I needed some way of demonstrating it. Then when I saw the Halloween decorations going up in the stores, it dawned on me what to use. I found just the right one, bought some modeling clay, and here is the result:

The cheap plastic skull I bought has a flattened backside (I’m thinking the reason for this is to keep it from rolling around when put on a table as a Halloween decoration), which allows me to add a layer of modeling clay which will show how various sized and shaped objects cause pressure. Since it is smaller than a real skull, I measured it to get an approximate scale size. (Paying attention to the calculations is not necessary for the post -- they're just here for anyone who likes to know the details.)

I used the following dimensions for an average 6-year-old’s skull:
1) skull perimeter = ~21”
2) skull avg. diameter = 6.65”
3) skull height = 7”

Corresponding measurements on the toy skull are:
1) 16
2) 5
3) 6

Calculations:
1) 16 / 21 = 0.7619
2) 5 / 6.65 = 0.7519
3) 6 / 7 = 0.8571

So based on the above, when I get to where I’m using this model, I’ll use 3/4 (0.75) as the scale, which is pretty easy to use in calculations and reasonably close to what I measured. I think the third ratio (skull height) is off from the others because of a lack of correct perspective in the mandibular area depicted in the skull (not to mention the fact that after all -- it’s just a cheap-passed Halloween toy). I think if I had photo software that allowed me to overlay a picture of the toy with a photo of an actual human skull, the reason for this variance would be obvious. But for my purposes here, using three-quarters as the scale is sufficient. What I am hoping for anyway is to demonstrate what would cause the 1/2” x 1-3/4” oval-shaped hole.

I mentioned earlier that in Geometry, an oval is the resulting intersection of a sphere and a cylinder. So I believe that it was some type of cylindrical object that caused the depressed fracture in JonBenet’s skull. Since we know approximately the dimensions of that area, we should be able to at least narrow down the possible diameter of the cylinder, and then perhaps decide what might have caused it.

But before I try to find the correct size (diameter) of the cylinder, I should demonstrate the effect of a few other objects that have been considered as possible weapons so we can eliminate them from the discussion. Rather than have to form the clay over and over again on the skull (for which I have no mold), I used something I could easily and consistently shape the clay to in order to get a curvature approximately the same as a skull.

Fortunately for me, Mrs. otg doesn’t read here. If she did, she’d see from what I’m about to show you that I used her stainless steel mixing bowls and other various kitchen devices, and I’d be in the dog house. (Shhhhhhhhhh..... Don’t anyone tell her -- I don’t need the grief.) This is one reason it’s taken me a while to get some of this done (Mrs. otg doesn’t leave the house much without me since she’s been ill.).

I put together the following video showing how I did this and the impressions left in the compound curvature of the clay with various objects and speculated weapons. I know most of the people here are pretty smart, so it shouldn’t take too much to get the idea by watching this how different shapes leave different impressions, and the impressions of even other shapes can then be almost predicted.

Here it is. If a picture is worth a thousand words, this should hopefully save me a lot of writing about what I found:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUwVZclrqkY"]Weapon Shapes - YouTube[/ame]​

Despite going through all the other reasonable possibilities I could think of and that other posters have suggested, the cylinder is the only thing that causes a depression in the clay in the same shape as the depressed fracture in JonBenet’s skull. So I feel comfortable in saying that I’ve confirmed the geometry and am confident that the weapon used was cylindrically shaped.

One more little demo (and one that anyone can easily recreate) to show in small scale the effect of a cylinder hitting a spherical object:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgQqsStqaNc"]Egg Demo - YouTube[/ame]​

The purpose of the ice cream scoop was just to compare the effect of something spherical to a cylinder (in this case -- the handle of a wooden mixing spoon).

The next thing will be to narrow down as much as I can the diameter of the object that might have caused the depressed fracture, and then show how it caused the linear fracture as well.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Dear otg,

As usual, you provided AGAIN the most logical, intellegent and hard-labored analysis!!!! Thank you my friend!!!

I'm 100% convinced that shape of the 'hole' is OVAL SHAPE and you proofed that perfectly in earlier parts of analysis.

I cannot disagree with law of physics and geometry...so, I'm in your 'camp' with the full support of your latest demonstrations: the object which crashed JB sculp is CYLINDRICAL SHAPE.

In another words, the OVAL shape hole in JB's sculp should match the PROJECTION from the cylindrical 'weapon'. And without going to complicated math, it's very important to note:

- the projection size from cylindrical object depends on it's R (radius);
- the projection will be NOT OVAL if 'projected' to flat surface, however,
- the projection will be OVAL if 'projected' to sphere shaped surface, like head;
- the smaller 'R' of cylindrical object, the more 'narrowed'/longer the projected OVAL will be on the curved 'head' surface.

So, the next thing we all should ask otg: PLEASE SHOW US THE WEAPON!!!! lease:

jmo

 

[wengr]

Otg, many thanks for your considerable work. I completely agree with you that the fact that the impression is not rectangular is the key here.
Some of my thoughts:
The hole is not just an oval, but an elipse, or very nearly eliptical. This I feel is important because it compounds the probability that the damage is caused by the impact from the side of a cyclinder. There are few items in the home with a perfect eliptical shape, and in order to produce the damage, they would have to be wielded in such a fashion whereby they impact at just there right approach and angle to leave the elipse. On the otherhand, the cylindrical object naturally creates an elipse upon intersecting with a sphere.
Also, I have spent some time considering the possible size of the cylinder - meaning could it be any diameter, with a larger diameter meaning less penetration? I was considering doing some virtual mockups in a software application to help with the geometry calculations. I now however feel that it is unnecessary as it seems that only a small diameter will provide the proper length to width ratio. It causes me to want to view the fireplace tool that is said to have been in the basement.
And finally, an item with a cylindrical or near cylindrical shaft can only be effectively wielded by holding one end and swinging it. This I feel is important because it can be condusive to the long crack. Imagine the cylinder as it contacts the skull. It is semi fixed at the end which is in someones hand. It is also semi fixed where it impacts the skull, and if that place where it impacts the skull is between the two ends, it acts like a fulcrum and the force is transferred over the fulcrum to the free end causing additional force on the far end of the elipse, and hence, the long crack.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Otg, many thanks for your considerable work. I completely agree with you that the fact that the impression is not rectangular is the key here.
Some of my thoughts:
The hole is not just an oval, but an elipse, or very nearly eliptical. This I feel is important because it compounds the probability that the damage is caused by the impact from the side of a cyclinder. There are few items in the home with a perfect eliptical shape, and in order to produce the damage, they would have to be wielded in such a fashion whereby they impact at just there right approach and angle to leave the elipse. On the otherhand, the cylindrical object naturally creates an elipse upon intersecting with a sphere.
Also, I have spent some time considering the possible size of the cylinder - meaning could it be any diameter, with a larger diameter meaning less penetration? I was considering doing some virtual mockups in a software application to help with the geometry calculations. I now however feel that it is unnecessary as it seems that only a small diameter will provide the proper length to width ratio. It causes me to want to view the fireplace tool that is said to have been in the basement.
And finally, an item with a cylindrical or near cylindrical shaft can only be effectively wielded by holding one end and swinging it. This I feel is important because it can be condusive to the long crack. Imagine the cylinder as it contacts the skull. It is semi fixed at the end which is in someones hand. It is also semi fixed where it impacts the skull, and if that place where it impacts the skull is between the two ends, it acts like a fulcrum and the force is transferred over the fulcrum to the free end causing additional force on the far end of the elipse, and hence, the long crack.

PERFECT!!!!!! You're absolutely correct!!! And I think otg is going there as well...trying to 'attend' the cause of the long crack. Bravo wengr!!!! If you could make the 'virtual mockups in a software application to help with the geometry calculations' - this would be so helpfull!!!!! On another hand, maybe otg already has it and keeping us in suspense for the final 'blow'??? ...couldn't wait for his/her next post!!!!!

jmo

 

[UKGuy]

PERFECT!!!!!! You're absolutely correct!!! And I think otg is going there as well...trying to 'attend' the cause of the long crack. Bravo wengr!!!! If you could make the 'virtual mockups in a software application to help with the geometry calculations' - this would be so helpfull!!!!! On another hand, maybe otg already has it and keeping us in suspense for the final 'blow'??? ...couldn't wait for his/her next post!!!!!

jmo

OpenMind4U,
Using the minimalist theory I see JonBenet lying unconcious, face down, and someone simply whacks her on the head with some object.

This object might something lying about in a bedroom, easy to hand?

.

 

[Rashi'sDaughter]

Otg, you are brilliant. You win the WS Oscar for Best Documentary!!!!!!
My guess as to the weapon is the flashlight, the handle end where the batteries are stored.

 

[midwest mama]

Most of us think about holding a flashlight when using in our homes like we would hold and ice cream cone, and then shining it wherever we want to see. But this is the way I see a maglight being held that would have been yielded as the bash weapon against JB:



http://www.youtube.com/embed/n_b1aZyEcog

 

[arielilane]

Otg, thank you for taking the time to do all the hard work. What dedication you have and brilliant work. I look forward to seeing more of your research.