JonBenet's Skull Fractures: The Weapon

[BOESP]

Just for reference:

3 TOM HANEY: Did JonBenet ever
4 complain about any inappropriate touching by
5 anybody?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
7 TOM HANEY: Absolutely sure?
8 PATSY RAMSEY INAUDIBLE).
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Tom, just so I am
10 clear, the Desitin or any ointment or cream you
11 ever did apply was topical?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Topical.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: So there was never
14 any internal ointment?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Or cream that you
17 applied on JonBenet?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

There's more concerning this and other interesting statements at http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-oversize-bloomies.htm .

 

[UKGuy]

Just for reference:

3 TOM HANEY: Did JonBenet ever
4 complain about any inappropriate touching by
5 anybody?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
7 TOM HANEY: Absolutely sure?
8 PATSY RAMSEY INAUDIBLE).
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Tom, just so I am
10 clear, the Desitin or any ointment or cream you
11 ever did apply was topical?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Topical.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: So there was never
14 any internal ointment?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Or cream that you
17 applied on JonBenet?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

There's more concerning this and other interesting statements at http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-oversize-bloomies.htm .

BOESP,
Presumably that rules out douching then? Otherwise why should Patsy not simply reply, On occassion I would douche JonBenet? Forensic problem solved and the R's off the hook.

Also does Steve Thomas not refer to the alleged practise by Patsy as Corporal Punishment for wetting the bed, and prior chronic abuse as Vaginal Trauma? This is not the same as douching is it?

I'm assuming, as James Kolar revealed that there was fecal matter found in JonBenet's bedroom, that this is what may have inspired Steve Thomas' theory?

If BPD or Kolar were to tell us if they found the missing piece of the paintbrush inside JonBenet, then PDI would be back on the table, since that would tilt the staging towards benefiting Patsy.



.

 

[BOESP]

My responses in blue below:

BOESP,
Presumably that rules out douching then? Otherwise why should Patsy not simply reply, On occassion I would douche JonBenet? Forensic problem solved and the R's off the hook.

Not necessarily. Imo, it presumes, if Patsy is telling the truth, her explanation for her use of Desitin on JonBenet. If she did kill JonBenet and douching was involved I doubt she'd admit it in an interview.

Also does Steve Thomas not refer to the alleged practise by Patsy as Corporal Punishment for wetting the bed, and prior chronic abuse as Vaginal Trauma? This is not the same as douching is it?

I don't have Thomas's book now but I believe he called it "corporal cleansing" and "soiling." He was somewhat vague on the particulars. I have no first-hand knowledge about the possibility of douching.

I'm assuming, as James Kolar revealed that there was fecal matter found in JonBenet's bedroom, that this is what may have inspired Steve Thomas' theory?

I don't know. Thomas likely came to his conclusions based on his evaluation of all the evidence, but's that jmo.

If BPD or Kolar were to tell us if they found the missing piece of the paintbrush inside JonBenet, then PDI would be back on the table, since that would tilt the staging towards benefiting Patsy.

Personally, based on what data is available publicly, I haven't taken anyone off the table.

.

 

[Whaleshark]

I agree with the response above... Patsy's responses definitely do not take douching or any other possible abuses off the table.

Her replies cannot be counted on for truth most of the time, as many Ramsey replies, testimonies, stories, accounts, and answers have proven contradictory, partially true, deflective, red herrings, generalizations, blaming and projection, or out and out fabrications, and completely changed stories and details over time.

Patsy claimed no knowledge of many personal things in her home, about herself, her family, her children's habits -- lots of things proven opposite by witnesses, and even Ramseys' own contradictory stories.

If Patsy told JonBenet that coloring JonBenet's hair was supposed to be a secret, do you think Patsy is going to admit to douching her 6-year old child, or knowledge of any other abuse, especially if she is either guilty of perpetrating it, or not helping prevent it?

... And even further, especially since they are trying to portray a 'normal, loving, perfect christian' family...

Some simple, or contradictory statements are 'tells', and should be taken for what they are or mean in the context of the situation and evidence, like when she said 'thank god there's a ransom note... Because they left some evidence!'... Evidence of what?, we all say... There is not a kidnapping. Evidence of someone else, she says... And even though my abused and murdered child is found in my hidden room, it still looks like a kidnapping to me, not a murder.... And numerous other nonlogical statements she makes like that...

 

[UKGuy]

I agree with the response above... Patsy's responses definitely do not take douching or any other possible abuses off the table.

Her replies cannot be counted on for truth most of the time, as many Ramsey replies, testimonies, stories, accounts, and answers have proven contradictory, partially true, deflective, red herrings, generalizations, blaming and projection, or out and out fabrications, and completely changed stories and details over time.

Patsy claimed no knowledge of many personal things in her home, about herself, her family, her children's habits -- lots of things proven opposite by witnesses, and even Ramseys' own contradictory stories.

If Patsy told JonBenet that coloring JonBenet's hair was supposed to be a secret, do you think Patsy is going to admit to douching her 6-year old child, or knowledge of any other abuse, especially if she is either guilty of perpetrating it, or not helping prevent it?

... And even further, especially since they are trying to portray a 'normal, loving, perfect christian' family...

Some simple, or contradictory statements are 'tells', and should be taken for what they are or mean in the context of the situation and evidence, like when she said 'thank god there's a ransom note... Because they left some evidence!'... Evidence of what?, we all say... There is not a kidnapping. Evidence of someone else, she says... And even though my abused and murdered child is found in my hidden room, it still looks like a kidnapping to me, not a murder.... And numerous other nonlogical statements she makes like that...

Whaleshark,
I think the forensic evidence presented in the Autopsy Report outlines an acute sexual assault.

Even if Patsy was douching JonBenet, which I seriously doubt, Steve Thomas never told us if a douching kit was found in the R's house, this does not disallow the possibility that the same person who asaulted JonBenet 12/25/1996, had also assaulted her on numerous prior occassions.

That is the douching, Corporal Cleaning, etc might simply be a sidetrack.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

Desitin doesn't cause INTERNAL injuries, such as bruising and erosion of the hymen. It is a diaper rash creme, so it may cause some allergic reaction to the skin of the buttocks or pubic area if there is sensitivity to it. Most mothers will have it on had when their kids are in diapers. Many women of childbearing years might have a douche assembly as well, but there have long been disposable one-time use pre-mixed douches as well. A line of questioning exploring the use of a douche on JB was not done, as far as I know, and as the Rs showed complete disinterest in any of her injuries related to sexual abuse, no connection was ever made between JB's internal injures and use of a douche by Patsy on her.
I don't think it was something LE would have searched for because I don't think they ever considered it.

 

[deca]

Just the idea of douching a child is so wrong. Kids who soil themselves and sit it in don't get stuff up there- and most modern medical professionals agree that douching is not healthy for even most adults- SO WHY?? There should have been no reason for P to do this to JB! When I was taking health/sex ed etc., in the 80s and 90s they were already saying that douching is not a good idea for most people so it isn't if that is new information.

DeeDee is 100% correct about the diaper rash creams.

 

[BOESP]

Desitin doesn't cause INTERNAL injuries, such as bruising and erosion of the hymen. It is a diaper rash creme, so it may cause some allergic reaction to the skin of the buttocks or pubic area if there is sensitivity to it. Most mothers will have it on had when their kids are in diapers. Many women of childbearing years might have a douche assembly as well, but there have long been disposable one-time use pre-mixed douches as well. A line of questioning exploring the use of a douche on JB was not done, as far as I know, and as the Rs showed complete disinterest in any of her injuries related to sexual abuse, no connection was ever made between JB's internal injures and use of a douche by Patsy on her.
I don't think it was something LE would have searched for because I don't think they ever considered it.

BBM. I agree. Under normal conditions it wouldn't but an angered parent may have digitally penetrated a child and caused damage during a cleansing episode. I think it was Haney who interviewed Patsy about the Desitin or other creams she might have used. He asked that question for a reason.

 

[UKGuy]

BBM. I agree. Under normal conditions it wouldn't but an angered parent may have digitally penetrated a child and caused damage during a cleansing episode. I think it was Haney who interviewed Patsy about the Desitin or other creams she might have used. He asked that question for a reason.

BOESP,
Patsy can use Desitin and not wish to discuss it at length with the interviewer. JR or BR can still be molesting JonBenet, Desitin or not.


.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,
Patsy can use Desitin and not wish to discuss it at length with the interviewer. JR or BR can still be molesting JonBenet, Desitin or not.


.

BBM. Of course. That is a given so I'm not sure what you are trying to point out. :waitasec:

 

[dodie20]

BOESP,
Patsy can use Desitin and not wish to discuss it at length with the interviewer. JR or BR can still be molesting JonBenet, Desitin or not.


.

yeah, and the reason for the cleaning, may have been because JB was being molested. If a mother was trying to hide molestation and keep her daughter from getting an infection , I think it's possible she would 'craze' clean her. IMO, this is a strong possibility. Not the only possibility, but it fits in with the evidence of prior violations and the reports of corporal cleansing. Another possibility of course, is that PR was so enraged about the wetting and soiling, that she resorted to crazed cleaning. And another possibility is that the crazed cleaning is what caused JB's soiling issues...a reaction to the abuse, resulting in a merry go round cycle. I do believe because of the destin questions, that LE was aware of PR's 'cleaning' methods. And she backed away from explaining. Why?

 

[Nom de plume]

yeah, and the reason for the cleaning, may have been because JB was being molested. If a mother was trying to hide molestation and keep her daughter from getting an infection , I think it's possible she would 'craze' clean her. IMO, this is a strong possibility. Not the only possibility, but it fits in with the evidence of prior violations and the reports of corporal cleansing. Another possibility of course, is that PR was so enraged about the wetting and soiling, that she resorted to crazed cleaning. And another possibility is that the crazed cleaning is what caused JB's soiling issues...a reaction to the abuse, resulting in a merry go round cycle. I do believe because of the destin questions, that LE was aware of PR's 'cleaning' methods. And she backed away from explaining. Why?

BBM Yes! I do believe Patsy was douching her, and it was because of the abuse. This probably added to her infections instead of preventing them, but I think PR would have seen it as "washing away the abuse". She probably saw JB as being "dirty" and needed to make her "perfect" & "clean" again. Between the sexual abuse and the "cleaning" abuse (IMO douching a child is abuse too), and the repeated infections, it's no wonder JB had wetting and soiling issues! I'm not surprised that PR didn't want to elaborate on the subject. She knew what she was doing would be viewed as at minimum traumatizing, if not outright abuse. She didn't want to spoil her "perfect mother" image.

A little OT, but how in the world does a pediatrician treat a 3-6yr old for repeated vaginal infections and NEVER examine her? He must not have or he would have seen evidence of abuse, or he did and ignored it. How does he even explain 33 trips in 36 months for such an issue and NOT at the very least SUSPECT abuse? Yeah....I know....bubble baths etc. But what kind of mother would keep giving her daughter bubble baths after that many infections?

 

[UKGuy]

BBM Yes! I do believe Patsy was douching her, and it was because of the abuse. This probably added to her infections instead of preventing them, but I think PR would have seen it as "washing away the abuse". She probably saw JB as being "dirty" and needed to make her "perfect" & "clean" again. Between the sexual abuse and the "cleaning" abuse (IMO douching a child is abuse too), and the repeated infections, it's no wonder JB had wetting and soiling issues! I'm not surprised that PR didn't want to elaborate on the subject. She knew what she was doing would be viewed as at minimum traumatizing, if not outright abuse. She didn't want to spoil her "perfect mother" image.

A little OT, but how in the world does a pediatrician treat a 3-6yr old for repeated vaginal infections and NEVER examine her? He must not have or he would have seen evidence of abuse, or he did and ignored it. How does he even explain 33 trips in 36 months for such an issue and NOT at the very least SUSPECT abuse? Yeah....I know....bubble baths etc. But what kind of mother would keep giving her daughter bubble baths after that many infections?

Nom de plume,
Maybe he did examine her, and wrote nothing down, recognizing how serious it might be, and simply discussed it with Patsy. Later on of course he does not want involved, he wants no court appearance etc, so he says what he said.

I think we can all agree JonBenet's medical records will show some kind of internal infection, regardless whether it was caused by douching, punishment, cleaning, abuse or all the former.

I reckon you are correct here, whatever you want to call it, Patsy was cleaning JonBenet because she was being abused, the method used is simply a detail.

This is why Patsy would deny everything and just cite Desitin use, and why the R's would want their Island of Privacy, since Dr Beuf's records might show a series of visits related to JonBenet suffering from internal infections?



.

 

[midwest mama]

Nom de plume,
Maybe he did examine her, and wrote nothing down, recognizing how serious it might be, and simply discussed it with Patsy. Later on of course he does not want involved, he wants no court appearance etc, so he says what he said.

I think we can all agree JonBenet's medical records will show some kind of internal infection, regardless whether it was caused by douching, punishment, cleaning, abuse or all the former.

I reckon you are correct here, whatever you want to call it, Patsy was cleaning JonBenet because she was being abused, the method used is simply a detail.

This is why Patsy would deny everything and just cite Desitin use, and why the R's would want their Island of Privacy, since Dr Beuf's records might show a series of visits related to JonBenet suffering from internal infections?



.

A pediatrician will examine a child's vaginal area as thoroughly as possible, short of needing an instrument and anesthesia for an internal exam. He can easily part the labia and visually examine the vaginal entrance. If it appears inflamed, he can do a swab effectively with no pain involved to send it off for a culture, with results to come later. Experience with my own family affords me this knowledge.

Also, a pediatrician only has to document the symptoms, his diagnosis and his recommendation for treatment. He does not have to go into detail of any physical technique he used for the examination - but will almost always have a nurse in attendance when there is an examination of that sort, for his own malpractice protection.

I agree there is a reason why Patsy was questioned about using "cream" on JB. There might have been a prescription vaginal cream discovered during evidence gathering as well as the Desitin.

Let's remember too, that Patsy was raised by Nedra, who was a "force to reckon with". Nedra was from the era that douching was considered a necessity for feminine cleanliness. My mother, and late mother-in-law both made themselves very uncomfortable in their discussions with me about it when I was a young lady and bride. I am SURE Nedra would have trained Patsy to know "she must" take care of her personal cleansing to insure good hygiene, or might have suggested it to Patsy for JB if she had talked to her mother about JB being so "inflamed, down there", which is how I picture Patsy talking to Nedra.

I think Patsy was only willing to admit the use of Desitin to investigators because she knew there could be no incrimination of male family members connected to that type of use. But I also suspect Patsy knew there was something far more complicated going on in JB's vaginal area - especially in the last couple of months before her death.

 

[UKGuy]

A pediatrician will examine a child's vaginal area as thoroughly as possible, short of needing an instrument and anesthesia for an internal exam. He can easily part the labia and visually examine the vaginal entrance. If it appears inflamed, he can do a swab effectively with no pain involved to send it off for a culture, with results to come later. Experience with my own family affords me this knowledge.

Also, a pediatrician only has to document the symptoms, his diagnosis and his recommendation for treatment. He does not have to go into detail of any physical technique he used for the examination - but will almost always have a nurse in attendance when there is an examination of that sort, for his own malpractice protection.

I agree there is a reason why Patsy was questioned about using "cream" on JB. There might have been a prescription vaginal cream discovered during evidence gathering as well as the Desitin.

Let's remember too, that Patsy was raised by Nedra, who was a "force to reckon with". Nedra was from the era that douching was considered a necessity for feminine cleanliness. My mother, and late mother-in-law both made themselves very uncomfortable in their discussions with me about it when I was a young lady and bride. I am SURE Nedra would have trained Patsy to know "she must" take care of her personal cleansing to insure good hygiene, or might have suggested it to Patsy for JB if she had talked to her mother about JB being so "inflamed, down there", which is how I picture Patsy talking to Nedra.

I think Patsy was only willing to admit the use of Desitin to investigators because she knew there could be no incrimination of male family members connected to that type of use. But I also suspect Patsy knew there was something far more complicated going on in JB's vaginal area - especially in the last couple of months before her death.

midwest mama,
Yes, I completely agree. I think if its JDI then this is what allows PR to collude with JR. And if its BR this forces JR and PR to collude to save BR.

What is possible but on the balance of the probabilities I rule out is PR sexually assaulting JonBenet.

This aspect of the case always brings me back to JDI or BDI.


.

 

[chemgirl]

Some women discuss using Desitin for urogenital irritation in this forum..a couple of them mention using it on their little girls: http://www.ic-network.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-22784.html

 

[midwest mama]

midwest mama,
Yes, I completely agree. I think if its JDI then this is what allows PR to collude with JR. And if its BR this forces JR and PR to collude to save BR.

What is possible but on the balance of the probabilities I rule out is PR sexually assaulting JonBenet.

This aspect of the case always brings me back to JDI or BDI.


.

I think Patsy had begun to realize that JB's vaginal problems were beyond what might have occurred from interaction with Burke or other young boys. It's possible even Beuf had asked her some questions that made her suspicious of JR, but she hadn't made the complete correlation, and even might have discounted that possibility to Beuf.

The holiday season was too complex to allow Patsy to pay close attention to what was going on with JB:

The late November trip to NY with other moms and daughters.
Thanksgiving weeked pageant in Georgia for JonBenet
Little Miss Colorado parade Dec 6
NYC trip with the Steins
Dec 13th Foyer Party at the Ramseys
The annual holiday tour of the R's house.
JB's Little Miss Colorado pageant at the mall, Dec 17thready.
JAR left for Georgia
Access Graphics Bill Dollar party, Dec 20
JB performed at school "Rock around the clock" Dec 20
Dec 22, JB's last public performance at Mall Christmas show
Dec 22, Patsy made arrangements for Charlevoix home decor
The party at their home on the 23rd.
Grandpa Paugh took stand-by flight on 24th.
Getting ready for the Disney Trip (suitcases and clothing in photos)
Christmas gifts to wrap and get ready for their kids.
Their own Christmas Day, then JR gone during the afternoon.
Party with the White's on Christmas evening.

Now, let's add other Christmas gift readying and the Boulder house decorating into the plan.

If Patsy even sat down somewhere for a moment's rest on Christmas night as she was yet gathering things to ready for a flight the next morning, isn't is possible she fell fast asleep? Could someone have later awakened her to tell her something was wrong with JB? And might she have been convinced that Burke had injured her to a point of death?

Either JR could have convinced Patsy that he believed Burke had done something terrible to JB, or Burke could have gone to find her to tell her that he had seen something terrible and was afraid for JB?

 

[dodie20]

I think Patsy had begun to realize that JB's vaginal problems were beyond what might have occurred from interaction with Burke or other young boys. It's possible even Beuf had asked her some questions that made her suspicious of JR, but she hadn't made the complete correlation, and even might have discounted that possibility to Beuf.

The holiday season was too complex to allow Patsy to pay close attention to what was going on with JB:

The late November trip to NY with other moms and daughters.
Thanksgiving weeked pageant in Georgia for JonBenet
Little Miss Colorado parade Dec 6
NYC trip with the Steins
Dec 13th Foyer Party at the Ramseys
The annual holiday tour of the R's house.
JB's Little Miss Colorado pageant at the mall, Dec 17thready.
JAR left for Georgia
Access Graphics Bill Dollar party, Dec 20
JB performed at school "Rock around the clock" Dec 20
Dec 22, JB's last public performance at Mall Christmas show
Dec 22, Patsy made arrangements for Charlevoix home decor
The party at their home on the 23rd.
Grandpa Paugh took stand-by flight on 24th.
Getting ready for the Disney Trip (suitcases and clothing in photos)
Christmas gifts to wrap and get ready for their kids.
Their own Christmas Day, then JR gone during the afternoon.
Party with the White's on Christmas evening.

Now, let's add other Christmas gift readying and the Boulder house decorating into the plan.

If Patsy even sat down somewhere for a moment's rest on Christmas night as she was yet gathering things to ready for a flight the next morning, isn't is possible she fell fast asleep? Could someone have later awakened her to tell her something was wrong with JB? And might she have been convinced that Burke had injured her to a point of death?

Either JR could have convinced Patsy that he believed Burke had done something terrible to JB, or Burke could have gone to find her to tell her that he had seen something terrible and was afraid for JB?

I read a later article with the Rs, (think it was the enquirer), where PR dismissed JR abusing JB because of lack of opportunity...said something about how her mother stayed with them while she, herself was hospitalized and that she kept real close tabs on JB. So? maybe maybe not, but this sure didn't convince me. Quite the contrary. I was left wondering what the heck went on in that house. To me, it was a lame explanation, like someone was trying to physically explain away what might have happened? We all know that PR's mother couldn't have possibly kept a 100% eye on the kids. Isn't this during the same time that BR smeared feces on the wall? Where was her watchful eye then? Or was she so busy keeping a hawk eye on JB, (and WHY ???), that she lost sight of BR? PR's explanation just created more questions, imo.

 

[DeeDee249]

The Ramsey house was only one ONE holiday house tour- in 1993. It was not on the house tour the year JB was killed. It was on the tour the first year they moved to Boulder.

 

[midwest mama]

No house tour in 1996 is correct - thanks, DeeDee. Actually, the house tour was in 1994:
Ramsey is no stranger to home tours. Her Boulder home was part of the Historic Boulder Holiday Home Tour in December, 1994. "That was the first Christmas after my chemotherapy treatments, " recalls Ramsey. "I was still wearing my wig when the guests arrived. It was really good therapy to be decorating and getting ready for the tour, to get back into fun things again. You'd never know that 2000 people came through the house in two days! I began to give something back to the community after being given a second chance at life."

The above came from: http://www.acandyrose.com/s-tour-boulderhouse1994.htm

This web page has a good collection of house photos from the tour.