Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval Thread #42

[beach]

Re-opening the thread now.

Okay -

• Discuss the evidence.
• Discuss witness testimony.
• Opine about how the outcome of OP's psych eval may affect the verdict and/or sentencing.
• Discuss applicable law as it pertains to this case and be willing to provide links to support your assertion.

Not okay under any circumstances -

• Reference any removed post, either overtly or in a veiled manner. They're gone. The End.
• Discuss other members.
• Personally attack any other member. "Address the post, not the poster." Save the snark. It's not attractive or productive to any discussion.
• Reference any postings made on any social media outlet made by other members. MSM ONLY with very few exceptions and those exceptions need to first be approved by a moderator.

Further -

• Post respectfully.
• Practice tolerance. In a forum such as WS, opinions are going to differ. That's a fact. Accept it.
• Be willing to be open-minded. There are a lot of bright minds here and everyone can learn something you may have not previously considered if you're willing to listen. We all want to be heard or we wouldn't be here.
• It's good practice to "preview" your posts before clicking "submit reply". Read and re[read. If in doubt that your post may not be respectful, edit and review again. Keep in mind is it probably not a good choice to type everything you're thinking. Previewing posts has saved many a poster from a TO (including myself )

You guys have the power here! Realize that!

It is up to y'all if this discussion thread remains open while court is dark. June 30th is 5 weeks away. If this thread can't remain civil, it will be closed until trial resumes.


Okay, let's try this again.

#FreshStart

 

[Val1]

Snap! I just wrote about this and had the same link but you bet me too it. Great post! (Here's mine anyways...)

I find there is a serious issue with celebrity worship syndrome around Pistorius, in terms of pressure on witnesses. On one hand it's important for people to be allowed to support anyone they think is relevant and valid, on the other I think it's quite clear how noxious the fervour and blind faith for a random celebrity accused whose best defense may be that he is either mentally ill or extremely reckless and thoughtless.

These supporters may even effect the case (or they wish too) because if you look on social platforms they have seemed to swarm on prosecution witnesses and troll them until they have to close accounts or lockdown for privacy. Perhaps they have done even worse, who knows?
(http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/new-age-celebrity-worship?page=2)

In South Africa there seems to be a great difficulty in bringing witnesses forward in court for fear of retaliation, real or imagined. I think many people know Pistorius' frenzied fan club could go beyond the realms of rational behaviour...

More daunting is that Pistorius larger family is exceptionally weathly and connected. He/they even had British public relations giant Stuart Higgins fly out and reportedly he helped set out some strategy with the local public relations firm Vuma before they took over. These could be seen as significant odds against independent witnesses.
http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-22-00-media-masters-work-to-win-two-trials

About Pistorius autobiography, I think anyone who has read this book before the trial is probably a fan. Now, after seeing the disturbing online activities of some of Pistorius fan club, I start to wonder about their stability!

Most relevant part of this article about the writing of the autobiography, is that ghost writer himself said: 'Have we unwittingly cultivated a monster?'
That's a deeply scary thought from someone who intimately researched and recorded Pistorius' 'printable' character and deeds.

Your bolded bit is exactly what I've seen reflected on OP's sister's face since he testified, though I could be wrong. That's not to say she and the rest of his family don't still love him, I'm sure they do, and probably are hoping against all odds that one day a magic video of one of OP's versions of what he said occurred that night will surface and vindicate their tarnished hero.

 

[Suthrnqt]

IIRC, May 26th is when OP reports for his first day of psych eval. In the US, that day is a holiday---Memorial Day. In fact, most of us have a 3 day weekend.
:dance:
:fireworks:

 

[kittychi]

Your bolded bit is exactly what I've seen reflected on OP's sister's face since he testified, though I could be wrong. That's not to say she and the rest of his family don't still love him, I'm sure they do, and probably are hoping against all odds that one day a magic video of one of OP's versions of what he said occurred that night will surface and vindicate their tarnished hero.

I have thought that too, Val. Her face has been very expressive, certainly not as smug looking as Uncle Arnold. She is in a very difficult position, regardless. It has to be an endless nightmare.

I wonder what some of the discussions at home have entailed...has he told her/them yet a different set of details from what he testified to? We will never know, but her face shows a lot of agony at times.

 

[CriLondon]

I have thought that too, Val. Her face has been very expressive, certainly not as smug looking as Uncle Arnold. She is in a very difficult position, regardless. It has to be an endless nightmare.

I wonder what some of the discussions at home have entailed...has he told her/them yet a different set of details from what he testified to? We will never know, but her face shows a lot of agony at times.

This is an interesting/curious one imo:



Quite different from the pattern she's usually displayed of deep sadness preceded by fear.

 

[CriLondon]

this is an interesting/curious one imo:

Quite different from the pattern she's usually displayed of deep sadness preceded by fear.

Just to add to my previous post , it's the very first time i see anything other than sadness and fear on AP's face.

1 - Mouth corners slightly pulled to the side (muscles just to the side of the chin produce this) as if in effing with slight anger , upper lip slightly too raised for comfort (muscles below the nostrils).

2 - eyelids partially closed , drooping , sadness still present. However a hint of a glare too.

3- This goes down as body language , already stated i'm not a huge fan of , but it seems more of a "leave me alone/get your hand off me" grip rather than an accepting the embrace grip . Index finger would also indicate that.Also gripping the wrist , not the hand.

4- Even though i can't see eyes and forehead , safe bet here is : lips parted and quite open , surprise . Here one could speculate the surprise is towrads AP's reaction.

Sorry for rough sketch and JRMO

 

[K.T]

K.T.,
The thing that I can't figure out is how in the world is OP smarter than those that post all kinds of garbage on social media sites? If we think about it, OP knew better than to text things that would harm his reputation.
<RSBM>
MOO

Agreed. Though I do question Pistorius' intelligence level and his self jeopardizing tendencies. I think the concert incident and the ex-girlfriend/Cassidy Memmory where he seems quick to abuse and be aggressive to women is revealing in his case.

Firstly, if he is such a &#8216;hero&#8217; why was his default position one of extreme profanity, arrogance and disregard &#8211; even contempt - for others. Secondly, why did he believe being drunk excused his disgusting behaviour. Finally and I believe probably the most serious indictment against him from my perspective was related to why he felt the need to be abusive to women.
http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Oscar-Pistorius-Hero-or-Hooligan-20111103

Then Pistorius apologies about that night, on twitter or text, to another random guy who also saw him drunk: "I'm sorry bud. Got out of hand. I'm sorry if I was rude, hope you had a blessed evening."

https://twitter.com/XandVenturas/status/442607224071135233

Pistorius has probably had people covering-up and minimalizing his spiraling behavior for a while, in my opinion. 'Blessed', indeed.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Article about psych evaluations currently being done on 3 accused murderers, OP, Dewani and Maduna.
It goes on to make clear the differences of the charges and sentencing between the US and SA.

These differences often prove confusing to lay-people following or covering murder trials, including foreign journalists. For instance, as Johannesburg attorney, David Dadic points out that while many media channels continue to report that Oscar Pistorius has been charged with “premeditated murder,” this is not the case. Another common error is that he stands to get a maximum sentence of 25 years if convicted of murder. In fact Pistorius is charged with “Murder – read with the provisions of Section 51 (1) of Act 105 of 1997.” This piece of legislation, the Criminal Law Amendment Act, states that Pistorius could receive a life sentence if convicted of murder. In addition, Pistorius has been charged with three contraventions of the Firearms Control Act.

There is just no way OP is going to walk away from this. :jail:

http://guardianlv.com/2014/05/murder-madness-oscar-pistorius-shrein-dewani-and-other-accused-killers/

 

[CriLondon]

http://www.paulekman.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Asymmetry-In-Facial-Expression.pdf

Just a link that describes possible asymmetry meanings in positive emotions.
I mentioned OP has clearly asymmetrical expressions when smiling, this should provide a little more info for those who might be interested.

 

[kittychi]

Agreed. Though I do question Pistorius' intelligence level and his self jeopardizing tendencies. I think the concert incident and the ex-girlfriend/Cassidy Memmory where he seems quick to abuse and be aggressive to women is revealing in his case.



Then Pistorius apologies about that night, on twitter or text, to another random guy who also saw him drunk: "I'm sorry bud. Got out of hand. I'm sorry if I was rude, hope you had a blessed evening."

https://twitter.com/XandVenturas/status/442607224071135233

Pistorius has probably had people covering-up and minimalizing his spiraling behavior for a while, in my opinion. 'Blessed', indeed.

I still think his rage at Reeva that night was alcohol-fueled.

 

[Fuskier]

isn't it peculiar how even the smallest detail is worth fibbing about for Oscar supporters?? I mean... to deny unequivocally, that Oscars book is ghost written , when the reality of it is so easily and comprehensively shown to be so.. what could be the motivation for that??

I recall from a previous thread, an article written by Gianni Merlo subsequent to OP being charged with the murder of Reeva Steencamp; the article was about OP's fall from grace. Gianni stated that as the 'ghost writer' for OP before his fall from grace, there had been much cover-up around negative 'image' incidents to protect 'brand OP'; he questioned whether this had contributed to creating a monster. My opinion only.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Hi G.bng Seems like when the book was translated over to English, they omitted Gianni Merlo's name. So he becomes the ghost writer for the English version.

Pistorius's autobiography, Dream Runner, was published in Italian in 2008 with Gianni Merlo, a journalist with La Gazzetta dello Sport.[132] An English version entitled Blade Runner was released in 2009.

Oscar Pistorius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gianni Merlo, who co-authored the 2009 biography “Blade Runner” with Pistorius,

http://nypost.com/2013/02/15/police-called-to-olympian-oscar-pistorius-home-hours-before-murder-reeva-steenkamp-shot-through-bathroom-door/

 

[Suthrnqt]

Hi G.bng Seems like when the book was translated over to English, they omitted Gianni Merlo's name. So he becomes the ghost writer for the English version.



Oscar Pistorius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


http://nypost.com/2013/02/15/police...r-reeva-steenkamp-shot-through-bathroom-door/

Thanks for posting this, Prime. I was coming back to do the same. I spent a good hour researching and came to the same conclusion; Giannini Merlo is in fact the ghost writer.
Glad that mystery is finally settled. Lol.
So, does anyone know if OP is expected to show up on his own on Monday, or will he be escorted by some type of LE?

 

[Dphil]

IIRC, May 26th is when OP reports for his first day of psych eval. In the US, that day is a holiday---Memorial Day. In fact, most of us have a 3 day weekend.
:dance:
:fireworks:

We do in the UK as well - good isn't it!

Regarding his evaluation - yep that's the day I have. I wish we could know how it's going - it's going to be a long long wait!

 

[Lyra500]

Thanks for posting this, Prime. I was coming back to do the same. I spent a good hour researching and came to the same conclusion; Giannini Merlo is in fact the ghost writer.
Glad that mystery is finally settled. Lol.
So, does anyone know if OP is expected to show up on his own on Monday, or will he be escorted by some type of LE?

Given his much documented and demonstrated 'bad attitude' when it comes to authority of any kind, I can't see that going smoothly.

Whilst I think it would have been better for the evaluation if OP had been an inpatient (particularly given the claims made about poor sleep etc) I still feel that well conducted tests etc will identify information of key interest to the trial.

Will the clinicians be able to report on everything of interest they find whether it pertains to a diagnosis of GAD or not? (I feel as if I should know this already from information which people have already posted, but I am afraid I have come over a bit vague this morning :blushing

I really hope they are able to report on every aspect of his personality which might have a bearing on the crime committed, as I think it would be the other stuff they uncover which would be really interesting.

Psych tests are specifically designed to catch out people trying to tailor their answers, so whether OP stops over or not, I hope some crucial stuff will be uncovered.

 

[Cherwell]

Hi G.bng Seems like when the book was translated over to English, they omitted Gianni Merlo's name. So he becomes the ghost writer for the English version.

Yesterday I had a look at the Amazon page for the book. On the copyright page it only identifies OP as the author, but there is also a credit to a translator - with an Italian name. It makes no sense that OP would need someone to translate the book into English, so I figured then that it must have been originally written in another language, and therefore not by him.

 

[Jake18]

Given his much documented and demonstrated 'bad attitude' when it comes to authority of any kind, I can't see that going smoothly.

Whilst I think it would have been better for the evaluation if OP had been an inpatient (particularly given the claims made about poor sleep etc) I still feel that well conducted tests etc will identify information of key interest to the trial.

Will the clinicians be able to report on everything of interest they find whether it pertains to a diagnosis of GAD or not? (I feel as if I should know this already from information which people have already posted, but I am afraid I have come over a bit vague this morning :blushing

I really hope they are able to report on every aspect of his personality which might have a bearing on the crime committed, as I think it would be the other stuff they uncover which would be really interesting.

Psych tests are specifically designed to catch out people trying to tailor their answers, so whether OP stops over or not, I hope some crucial stuff will be uncovered.

They'll be completely independent assessments and they'll be able to report on anything and everything they find. I don't personally feel that strongly about the inpatient vs outpatient issue, mainly because in my opinion there's no question that he was/is criminally responsible. I also don't actually think there'll be anything gleaned from the assessment that will act as a "smoking gun" for the PT. However, I do think he'll be found to have a big heaping helping of cluster B personality traits which offset the "OP as victim who's 'fighting for his life'" DT approach. I don't think GAD will be used as a mitigating factor for sentencing but I also think the judge won't accept the "intruder" story which nullifies the GAD defence anyway. I don't think there's a chance in h*ll he'll be able to fool forensic psychiatrists/psychologists that he was/is suffering from a mental illness that could influence his ability to tell right from wrong - he's not that clever and they will have seen it all before.

As an aside, when I was a student a psychiatrist said that the personality disorders could be classified as such : Cluster A = mad, Cluster B = bad and Cluster C = sad. I know that's a bit glib and I'm sorry if I offend anyone with personality disorders but he also said that the cluster B types were over represented in prison.

From memory Roux listed some psych drugs that OP was on at the start of the trial, presumably to highlight the extent of his mental anguish due to remorse etc. I wonder why the person who prescribed those meds didn't testify but they called on Dr Vorster (at the last minute) instead?

 

[Lyra500]

Thanks Jake.

I am not expecting a smoking gun, but some professional confirmation of the aspects of OP's personality which might have bearing on the crime and his testimony would be useful:

• pathological liar
• self-importance and entitlement
• total inability to accept personal responsibility for negative events
• total lack of empathy
• narcissism
• misogyny
• volatile temper

The quotes about the way he has been treated having created a monster ring very true for me.

• the way he was raised before and after his mother's very sad death appear to have produced an individual who thinks that his feelings take precedence over everyone and everything else.
• every time his family or friends or 'psychoanalyst' pet him and soothe him as if he were still a three year old, I think his feelings of being the most important person on the planet are reinforced and he is given permission to totally ignore his responsibility as an adult to deal with set backs and things which displease him - and learn that sometimes he just needs to 'suck it up' like the rest of us.
• Every time his transgressions such as the boat crash are glossed over or ignored by the authorities it increases his feelings of self-importance, exemption from the normal requirements for living in society and superiority over everyone else.
• the addition of fame, wealth and a borderline delusional fan-base has merely added the final drops of poison into the toxic mix.

When you combine a personality like this with copious numbers of guns and live ammunition, it is surely a question of "when" not "if" something will go horribly wrong.

 

[Cherwell]

Thanks Jake.

I am not expecting a smoking gun, but some professional confirmation of the aspects of OP's personality which might have bearing on the crime and his testimony would be useful:

• pathological liar
• self-importance and entitlement
• total inability to accept personal responsibility for negative events
• total lack of empathy
• narcissism
• misogyny
• volatile temper

The quotes about the way he has been treated having created a monster ring very true for me.

• the way he was raised before and after his mother's very sad death appear to have produced an individual who thinks that his feelings take precedence over everyone and everything else.
• every time his family or friends or 'psychoanalyst' pet him and soothe him as if he were still a three year old, I think his feelings of being the most important person on the planet are reinforced and he is given permission to totally ignore his responsibility as an adult to deal with set backs and things which displease him - and learn that sometimes he just needs to 'suck it up' like the rest of us.
• Every time his transgressions such as the boat crash are glossed over or ignored by the authorities it increases his feelings of self-importance, exemption from the normal requirements for living in society and superiority over everyone else.
• the addition of fame, wealth and a borderline delusional fan-base has merely added the final drops of poison into the toxic mix.

:goodpost:

Very well summed up.

 

[Estelle]

They'll be completely independent assessments and they'll be able to report on anything and everything they find. I don't personally feel that strongly about the inpatient vs outpatient issue, mainly because in my opinion there's no question that he was/is criminally responsible. I also don't actually think there'll be anything gleaned from the assessment that will act as a "smoking gun" for the PT. However, I do think he'll be found to have a big heaping helping of cluster B personality traits which offset the "OP as victim who's 'fighting for his life'" DT approach. I don't think GAD will be used as a mitigating factor for sentencing but I also think the judge won't accept the "intruder" story which nullifies the GAD defence anyway. I don't think there's a chance in h*ll he'll be able to fool forensic psychiatrists/psychologists that he was/is suffering from a mental illness that could influence his ability to tell right from wrong - he's not that clever and they will have seen it all before.

As an aside, when I was a student a psychiatrist said that the personality disorders could be classified as such : Cluster A = mad, Cluster B = bad and Cluster C = sad. I know that's a bit glib and I'm sorry if I offend anyone with personality disorders but he also said that the cluster B types were over represented in prison.

From memory Roux listed some psych drugs that OP was on at the start of the trial, presumably to highlight the extent of his mental anguish due to remorse etc. I wonder why the person who prescribed those meds didn't testify but they called on Dr Vorster (at the last minute) instead?

Good post, Jake. I have also wondered why the person who prescribed those drugs was not asked to testify which made me suspicious as there is no proof that they were prescribed.

What are the Cluster B personality disorders? antisocial, borderline, narcissistic, and histrionic
characterized by dramatic, emotional or erratic behavior.

Antisocial Personality Disorder
* lacking empathy
* deceitful or break the law.
* impulsive behavior
* aggression
* disregard for their own or other&#8217;s safety
* irresponsible behavior
* lack of remorse.

Borderline Personality Disorder
* associated with specific problems in interpersonal relationships, self-image, emotions, behaviors, and thinking.
* tend to have intense relationships characterized by a lot of conflict, arguments and break-ups.
* difficulties related to the stability of their identity or sense of self.
* have many "ups and downs" in how they feel about themselves.
* they feel as if they are on an emotional roller coaster, with very quick shifts in mood
* tendency to engage in risky behaviors

Narcissistic personality disorder
* inflated sense of self-importance.
* believe that they are &#8220;special,&#8221; require excessive attention
* take advantage of others
* lack empathy
* arrogant.

Histrionic personality disorder
* intense expressions of emotion and excessive attention-seeking behavior
* often seek out attention
* are uncomfortable when others are receiving attention
* engage in seductive or sexually promiscuous behavior
* use their physical appearance to draw attention to themselves
* demonstrate rapidly shifting emotions and express emotion in a very dramatic fashion.

{\url]http://bpd.about.com/od/relatedconditions/a/clusterB.htm[/url]