Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval

[eimajjjj]

Hi guys, first time poster, long-time lurker and fascinated by this trial.

I had to post as although it's been touched on before, I think a massive point for the prosecution is the difference in the bail affadavit and OP's current testimony regarding the noise of the bathroom window..

First off, Nel touches on the fact that OP talks of a noise in the bail affadavit not a window slamming into wood as per here:

1:05:10 - 1:08:40
Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 14 April 2014, Session 1 - YouTube

However, I think the smoking gun here is that OP didn't just add to his bail statement to include new details but he changed the meaning completely regarding the noise/window.

Not only did he say that he heard a 'noise' in his bail statement and didn't mention the window (which he's so sure of now) BUT..later he says in his bail affadavit (after he gets to the bathroom after hearing a noise):

"I NOTICED the window was open.."

Now to me that that does't confirmthat the noise he heard was the window as he says in this video clip but it implies he's noticed the window open for the first time. It says that he heard a noise and then he discovered/noticed that the window was open.

The key is the word 'noticed' I think. You don't hear something, know it was the window 1000% and the go in and notice it.

Just chiming in!

 

[Gryffindor]

It's so wonderful to read the intelligent posts and to be able to follow court activity via zwie, trooper and others. Thank you all so much.

Does anyone think the plans for OP's evaluation will be wrapped up tomorrow?

If Nel argues for in-house commitment, any thoughts as to the outcome?

DT and PT have had just under a week to collaborate and agree on the order, so the criteria and content should be pretty much finalised for tomorrow.

And inpatient/outpatient status will definitely have been decided by tomorrow morning.

 

[G.bng]

It's so wonderful to read the intelligent posts and to be able to follow court activity via zwie, trooper and others. Thank you all so much.

Does anyone think the plans for OP's evaluation will be wrapped up tomorrow?

If Nel argues for in-house commitment, any thoughts as to the outcome?

Why would Nel argue for inpatient commitment ? He and Roux already agreed an outpatient status and Masipa actually congratulated them for reaching a common agreement on this!

No, IMO, the only way now OP will have to undergo the evaluation on an inpatient basis will be if the professionals advise that it cannot be properly undertaken as an outpatient. Admittedly not impossible but it would be pretty strange since over here, US, Canada, etc. etc. it is normal for such evaluations to be done on an outpatient basis unless there are very compelling reasons for them not to be. So as Nel didn't argue there were any compelling reasons and Masipa didn't find any either, and because section 79 of the CPA contemplates the outpatient possibility, and the worldwide tendency now, since the 80s iirc, is outpatient, unless the final panel, or a pre-panel, advises the contrary the inpatient ship already sailed.

 

[lithgow1]

Why would Nel argue for inpatient commitment ? He and Roux already agreed an outpatient status and Masipa actually congratulated them for reaching a common agreement on this!

No, IMO, the only way now OP will have to undergo the evaluation on an inpatient basis will be if the professionals advise that it cannot be properly undertaken as an outpatient. Admittedly not impossible but it would be pretty strange since over here, US, Canada, etc. etc. it is normal for such evaluations to be done on an outpatient basis unless there are very compelling reasons for them not to be. So as Nel didn't argue there were any compelling reasons and Masipa didn't find any either, and because section 79 of the CPA contemplates the outpatient possibility, and the worldwide tendency now, since the 80s iirc, is outpatient, unless the final panel, or a pre-panel, advises the contrary the inpatient ship already sailed.

AFAIK they haven't agreed to it - it was something that they said would be considered.

Nel may well argue on the grounds you suggest above of the effectiveness of outpatient vs inpatient assessment and also that the hospital in question stated that no-one in this particular circumstance had been assessed on an outpatient basis before.

He already got bail when most would not and then appealed that the conditions were too stringent. Now that his own psychiatrist has stated in court that people with this condition can be dangerous (be that true or not) IMO his bail should be revoked and he should spend the rest of the trial in custody. Guess that makes me biased, which I am - I am biased against wealthy people and/or celebrities getting preferential treatment while others linger in jail awaiting trials or assessments.

 

[Dphil]

Hello all - lovely day here in Cape Town, South Africa.
Took me a while to find this new thread, all new to me.
How are we all today?

Originally Posted by Dphil

"Personally I hope they bring the witness who's dog OP shot. I can't imagine doing that to a living creature and this is something HE has admitted to in the past."

OMW! Shocking and disgusting, Dphil - got a link to this?? (hope you are doing good today btw)

I'm good thanks!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/24/oscar-pistorius-end-of-rainbow

Here's the bit in the article about the dog:

A couple of years ago, two journalist friends of mine spent an afternoon with Oscar Pistorius. For much of the time, they recall, Oscar was quiet and self-contained. And then, apropos of nothing, he told a story. He was driving on the outskirts of a black township, he said, when a dog ran under his wheels. In his rear-view mirror, he watched as it dragged itself off the road by its front legs, its hind legs useless to it now. Its back was clearly broken. He stopped and got out of his car to find that the dog's owner had come out on to the street, shouting, cursing, gesticulating. What to do? Oscar grabbed his gun, shot the dog through the back of the head and drove off.

 

[BritsKate]

AFAIK they haven't agreed to it - it was something that they said would be considered.

Nel may well argue on the grounds you suggest above of the effectiveness of outpatient vs inpatient assessment and also that the hospital in question stated that no-one in this particular circumstance had been assessed on an outpatient basis before.

He already got bail when most would not and then appealed that the conditions were too stringent. Now that his own psychiatrist has stated in court that people with this condition can be dangerous (be that true or not) IMO his bail should be revoked and he should spend the rest of the trial in custody. Guess that makes me biased, which I am - I am biased against wealthy people and/or celebrities getting preferential treatment while others linger in jail awaiting trials or assessments.

You already know I agree. James Grant, law professor, has stated an outpatient referral is against the norm...

But I'd argue so are midtrial referrals by an opposing attorney. So IF he is allowed outpatient it may actually have more to do with that than with his wealth or celebrity - but I think the natural inference, considering bail conditions, will indeed be special treatment.

JMO


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Hope for justice]

I think because we're midtrial, they're going to do whatever necessary for as quick a resolution as possible. If it means outpatient, so be it.

That said, I hope not. This case already has inequality written all over it - and just once, whether right or wrong, I'd like Pistorius to be held in the same regard as every other person accused of murder in South Africa. I hate it when certain defendants get 'perks'. Justice is supposed to be blind.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

Thanks BritsKate. Yes, justice is supposed to be blind, and often with celebrities and folks with influence, it appears not to be the case.

 

[Hope for justice]

DT and PT have had just under a week to collaborate and agree on the order, so the criteria and content should be pretty much finalised for tomorrow.

And inpatient/outpatient status will definitely have been decided by tomorrow morning.

Thanks Gryffindor. I can't wait to hear all the details tomorrow.

 

[soozieqtips]

Why would Nel argue for inpatient commitment ? He and Roux already agreed an outpatient status and Masipa actually congratulated them for reaching a common agreement on this!

No, IMO, the only way now OP will have to undergo the evaluation on an inpatient basis will be if the professionals advise that it cannot be properly undertaken as an outpatient. Admittedly not impossible but it would be pretty strange since over here, US, Canada, etc. etc. it is normal for such evaluations to be done on an outpatient basis unless there are very compelling reasons for them not to be. So as Nel didn't argue there were any compelling reasons and Masipa didn't find any either, and because section 79 of the CPA contemplates the outpatient possibility, and the worldwide tendency now, since the 80s iirc, is outpatient, unless the final panel, or a pre-panel, advises the contrary the inpatient ship already sailed.

BBM - when did they all agree on this? Nel merely said it would be 'investigated' when Masipa suggested it would be preferable for OP to be seen as an outpatient. Have you read something that indicates otherwise? If so, do you have a link please?

 

[lithgow1]

BBM - when did they all agree on this? Nel merely said it would be 'investigated' when Masipa suggested it would be preferable for OP to be seen as an outpatient. Have you read something that indicates otherwise? If so, do you have a link please?

This was just posted on the other forum I look at. Since it's just some tweets I don't foresee any problem with copying and pasting as it's not someone else's post as such.

Karyn Maughan @karynmaughan · 1h
Oscar Pistorius will be referred to the Weskoppies psychiatric hospital tomorrow - as an outpatient. @eNCAnews

Karyn Maughan @karynmaughan · 1h
Prof Herman Pretorius and Carla Kotze are the Weskoppies psychiatrists on #OscarPistorius panel. Defense psych is Leon Fine @eNCAnews

Karyn Maughan @karynmaughan · 1h
Dr Jonathan Scholtz will be psychologist on #OscarPistorius panel. @eNCAnews

Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan 1h
There is no legal minimum time that #OscarPistorius panel needs to spend with him. They will decide how much time they need @eNCAnews

 

[Hope for justice]

Why would Nel argue for inpatient commitment ? He and Roux already agreed an outpatient status and Masipa actually congratulated them for reaching a common agreement on this!

No, IMO, the only way now OP will have to undergo the evaluation on an inpatient basis will be if the professionals advise that it cannot be properly undertaken as an outpatient. Admittedly not impossible but it would be pretty strange since over here, US, Canada, etc. etc. it is normal for such evaluations to be done on an outpatient basis unless there are very compelling reasons for them not to be. So as Nel didn't argue there were any compelling reasons and Masipa didn't find any either, and because section 79 of the CPA contemplates the outpatient possibility, and the worldwide tendency now, since the 80s iirc, is outpatient, unless the final panel, or a pre-panel, advises the contrary the inpatient ship already sailed.

Not sure why Nel would argue for inpatient commitment, except I thought I heard him make a comment to Masipa suggesting this. I must be mistaken, sorry. :blushing: Thought Dr. V stating that he could be dangerous with a gun, might have some bearing.
Thanks for your response.

 

[soozieqtips]

Thanks lithgow. So if everything's already been arranged, then what's up for discussion tomorrow in court?

 

[Zuri]

This was just posted on the other forum I look at. Since it's just some tweets I don't foresee any problem with copying and pasting as it's not someone else's post as such.

Karyn Maughan @karynmaughan · 1h
Oscar Pistorius will be referred to the Weskoppies psychiatric hospital tomorrow - as an outpatient. @eNCAnews

Karyn Maughan @karynmaughan · 1h
Prof Herman Pretorius and Carla Kotze are the Weskoppies psychiatrists on #OscarPistorius panel. Defense psych is Leon Fine @eNCAnews

Karyn Maughan @karynmaughan · 1h
Dr Jonathan Scholtz will be psychologist on #OscarPistorius panel. @eNCAnews

Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan 1h
There is no legal minimum time that #OscarPistorius panel needs to spend with him. They will decide how much time they need @eNCAnews

So does this mean he might be observed longer than 3 days? TIA

 

[soozieqtips]

Not sure why Nel would argue for inpatient commitment, except I thought I heard him make a comment to Masipa suggesting this. I must be mistaken, sorry. :blushing: Thought Dr. V stating that he could be dangerous with a gun, might have some bearing.
Thanks for your response.

BBM - she did say that.

I wonder if some of his bail conditions will be revoked.

 

[Gryffindor]

Thanks Gryffindor. I can't wait to hear all the details tomorrow.

No problem. You're very welcome. :-D

Yeah the specific details may be interesting, or, completely mundane and standard, haha.

 

[lithgow1]

So does this mean he might be observed longer than 3 days? TIA

I really don't know Zuri - I'm just the relayer of tweets I read elsewhere. You would think though that it would be more than three days - that's not long at all especially if he's an outpatient. My guess would be they would do some preliminary testing and then decide amongst themselves how long they thought necessary to complete the assessment to the court's satisfaction. Complete speculation on my part though.

 

[Hope for justice]

BBM - she did say that.

I wonder if some of his bail conditions will be revoked.

I doubt it. But would be happy to see ALL of them revoked. Safety for the masses comes first, imo.

 

[jay-jay]

Apologies, have just realised I misquoted Bob Geldolf earlier, he actually said 'we are beyond pain' (not 'grief') .. anyhoo, the point remains ..

 

[Interested Bystander]

As far as I can tell Nel and Roux were in agreement with respect to outpatient treatment but would need to check on its feasibility. Here is the Sky report which includes the judge's granting of the referral. See around 13.10 for the discussion of treatment.

Oscar Pistorius Sent For Psychiatric Tests - Day 32

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=srEg9zUuq6M&list=PLG8IrydigQffS-nHd4SaGcDO7DsxxygzY

 

[Gryffindor]

I doubt it. But would be happy to see ALL of them revoked. Safety for the masses comes first, imo.

I doubt he'd have been granted bail AT ALL, pre and during trial, if he was that much of a liability .