KC's Anniversary Reaction

[Brini]

Back to thread topic, if I were a prosecutor (now there's a laugh for ya'!) :deal:, I'm not sure that I'd want to delve into the anniversary-type reactions which she may/may not
be having since she'd tend to be humanized for the jury who needs to remain as dispassionate as possible. . .except when presented with

(1) KC's massive fraud with LE (that one immediately biased my attention);
(2) 31 days without notification Caylee missing;
(3) car odor & decomp evidence;
(4) ugly coping photos;
(5) KC/defense cover-ups in locating Caylee remains;
(6) autopsy findings.

Regarding 1-5, I'd not want the Jury confronted with any tinge of doubt about KC's remorse/suffering (or lack thereof).

Yep! That about sums it up!:clap:

 

[Brini]

As I have pointed out to you in the past, many lie in therapy.

Families like this know they are not "normal". Why do you think they work so hard to keep it secret?! And everyone thought the "secret" was that Lee was Caylee's daddy.

Exactly! Usually the only deep, dark, secret the family has is that they are not a functioning family. They are so secretive, because they are trying hard to appear to be "Ozzie and Harriet." They know they are not functional, and greatly fear being seen so. They DON'T know that there are no Ozzies and Harriets. So, they are simultaneously trying to cover up the family problems and to be seen as a "norm" that doesn't even exist.

All this makes then even nuttier.

My family was one of those. The deepest, darkest secret we held was that dad was an outwardly functioning alcoholic. You'd THINK we were covering up a mad old aunt in the attic, or a mutant brother in the basement with tentacles, for all the secrecy.

 

[SleuthyMama]

I was sharing my thoughts. I think it's hog wash. I think it is likely that her defense team put that rumor out there so it would pave the road for such (insanity plea". I think if it happened---she was faking it---I think the girl would not have an anniversary reaction. This is my "thoughts" and my "opinion".

I think the day she killed Caylee was the day she moved on with her life. Now that she is in jail, she has moved on with her life. She changed her Mother's clothes to party girl clothes. She was fixin to change her KC clothes to ZG 22 but a premature murder got in the way---she had to change into other clothes so she chose Princess/Queen clothes. Was nice for awhile but boring so she has changed into her lawyer clothes.

She keeps on changing clothes. She will always change clothes. I believe once she changes clothes---she burns the old clothes and will continue to do so---for the rest of her life. When she moves on she leaves all the rest behind. I don't think that part will come out thru her sub-conciseness.

ITA, Mamabear. I think the moment Caylee was gone was the moment Casey had already moved on to something else. And in that case, it was hanging out with TL and renting movies. She will forever change clothes, as you said. It will always be about adapting and changing to fit whatever situation she finds herself in. Casey is, was, and forever will be only about Casey. That didn't change because she had a child and it's not going to change because (God willing) she spends the rest of her life in jail or gets the DP. Casey is a user first and foremost. Whatever furthers her agenda is the way she rolls.

Now, if that means faking an anniversary reaction because her new DP lawyer is telling her to do that....now that's a possibility.

But she ain't sweatin' because she's got a conscience, that's fer sure.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

If we can assume that the unconscious mind is vast and capable of forms of communication which science still doesn't fully explain, perhaps a plausible
explanation of a "haunting" is a form of unconscious communication with the lost loved-one (in this case, Caylee!).

Another explanation of a "haunting" is the reliving (known as revivification by psychiatrists) of the traumatic event where the mind and respective
sensory mechanisms (sight, smell, sound, etc.) are especially acute. (In my own experience, the anniversary reaction used to be "triggered" by the
sights, sounds, smells, flowers and other plants, weather and general atmosphere of the time of year.) Of course, KC is locked up, but the mind remembers!

Just wanted to expand on this insightful, well written, well put idea . . . . Casey may be physically locked up, but her mind and conscience or lack of conscience is not. She has much time to rerun the events of her life and the time and ability to relive her memories . . .

 

[akashana]

So what are you saying (English please)? OCD is not usually triggered by time cues or anniversary reactions, but what? Did I totally miss the boat here?

TIA

In plainspeak, what she is saying is that the disorders such as handwashing or other OCD manifestations are evident all or nearly all of the time, and are not just present at or around the time of the anniversary of the event.

 

[essies]

Just wanted to expand on this insightful, well written, well put idea . . . . Casey may be physically locked up, but her mind and conscience or lack of conscience is not. She has much time to rerun the events of her life and the time and ability to relive her memories . . .

ITA She also has much time to rerun and REWRITE those events and memories. After all those memories will be her constant companions and in her dreams for many, many years. I believe she has the ability to alter her reality to one that she can live with - that's the chameleon in her! She knows how to adapt-she's been doing it for 23 years!

 

[Reznor]

IMO KC murdered her child. She is experiencing subconsciously this fact. She thinks about the anniversary of this murder during the day and is haunted by this fact in her sleeping hours.

I don't believe this is an act KC is faking. I'm sure her lawyers would advise her not do anything anything at all manipulative. I'm sure they know her personality well enough to advise accordingly.

She killed her daughter. Yes, she was a horrible mother but she also had times that were good with Caylee. MHO she is feeling remorse that she can't control.

 

[Verité]

ITA, Mamabear. I think the moment Caylee was gone was the moment Casey had already moved on to something else. And in that case, it was hanging out with TL and renting movies. She will forever change clothes, as you said. It will always be about adapting and changing to fit whatever situation she finds herself in. Casey is, was, and forever will be only about Casey. That didn't change because she had a child and it's not going to change because (God willing) she spends the rest of her life in jail or gets the DP. Casey is a user first and foremost. Whatever furthers her agenda is the way she rolls.

Now, if that means faking an anniversary reaction because her new DP lawyer is telling her to do that....now that's a possibility.

But she ain't sweatin' because she's got a conscience, that's fer sure.

Why do folks assume that new DP attorney AL would be the one to guide the 'faking' of an anniversary reaction? From reading her articles, I just don't
perceive her as the impulsive type who will rush in and start directing and choreographing before she has laid tremendous groundwork. Her emphasis
instead is on laying a durable foundation by developing rapport and establishing an unshakable trusting, working alliance over substantial time with her
DP clients who tend to be completely mistrustful of everyone.

In this case, we know that the only person KC appears to trust absolutely is one who early on impulsively rushed in where wise men fear to tread.
That advisor would be the one I'd suspect of coaching in every realm from jail cell to courtroom behavior. The one occasion when he was unable
to gain access to peremptorily launder her brain was when she reacted to the finding of her daughter's remains. . .but he's now been able to keep
her unabridged reaction sealed from public scrutiny. Given his connections to the entertainment industry, I hear he's keeping KC in tow by having
radio stations play almost non-stop Lady GaGa's Poker Face. LOL

Sorry to sound so vague. You probably can't even guess the identity of this Svengali who, we heard just yesterday, won't even allow KC to have visits
with her family, right?

 

[Searchfortruth]

[/B]
ITA She also has much time to rerun and REWRITE those events and memories. After all those memories will be her constant companions and in her dreams for many, many years. I believe she has the ability to alter her reality to one that she can live with - that's the chameleon in her! She knows how to adapt-she's been doing it for 23 years!

Just from observing Casey, I believe she "rewrites" her reality easily. I believe JB has her convinced she is not truly responsible for this crime, IMO, she wasn't hard to convince. I don't think anyone could sit in court calmly, while the prosecutor talks about duct tape wrapped around the head of your child, without this ability to change reality. If Casey did have nightmares about Caylee's death, wouldn't that show some sort of conscious which is not normally seen in sociopath's ?

 

[Verité]

Exactly! Usually the only deep, dark, secret the family has is that they are not a functioning family. They are so secretive, because they are trying hard to appear to be "Ozzie and Harriet." They know they are not functional, and greatly fear being seen so. They DON'T know that there are no Ozzies and Harriets. So, they are simultaneously trying to cover up the family problems and to be seen as a "norm" that doesn't even exist. . . .

Many moons ago, I spoke to an audience of over 500 mental health professionals about Family Function/Dysfunction and asked for a show of
hands about how many of them had grown up in a "functional family." There was no more than a dozen or so show of hands. When I asked the reverse,
i.e. how many had grown up in a "dysfunctional family," it seemed that the entire audience was raising one or both hands! Believe it or not, this
surprised me. . .coz I'd long buried the shame that perhaps my family was the only dysfunctional one in the universe--if I was to believe those
TV shows of my childhood. . .and apparently I did. . .until that moment!

 

[Verité]

. . . If Casey did have nightmares about Caylee's death, wouldn't that show some sort of conscious which is not normally seen in sociopath's ?. . . .

See my post #114 re the co-existence of severe stress reactions (PTSD, anniversary reactions) and Antisocial Personality Disorder (sociopathy). I'm not sure
what you mean by the term "conscious," i.e. consciousness of guilt or conscience?

 

[essies]

If it is true that she said "this isn't real" and changed the subject to sports while seeing the news of Caylee being found 12/11-then I can see KC totally re-writing the past to something she can live with for her natural life. If jail guards did wake her up and tell her that she was crying out in her sleep-then I can see her angrily denying it! I don't think KC is spending all her time reading law books-I think KC is spending time talking to herself and convincing herself that she is the victim. She is brainwashing herself-and forcing out the memories that don't fit! Probably very much like Norman Bates did in Psycho!:bang:

 

[Verité]

If it is true that she said "this isn't real" and changed the subject to sports while seeing the news of Caylee being found 12/11-then I can see KC totally re-writing the past to something she can live with for her natural life. If jail guards did wake her up and tell her that she was crying out in her sleep-then I can see her angrily denying it! I don't think KC is spending all her time reading law books-I think KC is spending time talking to herself and convincing herself that she is the victim. She is brainwashing herself-and forcing out the memories that don't fit! Probably very much like Norman Bates did in Psycho!:bang:

And for clues on appropriate affect/demeanor, she's listening to Lady GaGa!

 

[Searchfortruth]

See my post #114 re the co-existence of severe stress reactions (PTSD, anniversary reactions) and Antisocial Personality Disorder (sociopathy). I'm not sure
what you mean by the term "conscious," i.e. consciousness of guilt or conscience?

As in the ability to feel shame for bad actions...it is my understanding that sociopathic personality's tend to lack this.

 

[OneLostGrl]

As in the ability to feel shame for bad actions...it is my understanding that sociopathic personality's tend to lack this.

I agree but some of us don't feel she is a Psychopath/Sociopath.

 

[OneLostGrl]

If it is true that she said "this isn't real" and changed the subject to sports while seeing the news of Caylee being found 12/11-then I can see KC totally re-writing the past to something she can live with for her natural life. If jail guards did wake her up and tell her that she was crying out in her sleep-then I can see her angrily denying it! I don't think KC is spending all her time reading law books-I think KC is spending time talking to herself and convincing herself that she is the victim. She is brainwashing herself-and forcing out the memories that don't fit! Probably very much like Norman Bates did in Psycho!:bang:

Excellent post! Her mother re-writes too.

 

[Verité]

. . .As for polygraphs, it is a case of mind over matter.

Psychopaths can pass polygraphs because they don't feel anxiety and stress associated with lying. And because they lack empathy, MRIs tend to show low activity when it comes to warm emotions. Add to that a lot of practice in lying, it stands to reason their physiological responses will reflect that.

I see psychopaths very simply- they manipulate their environment at every single moment. All their emotions are faked except for the negative. IMO the perp is simply incapable of emotion that doesn't relate to her. If she is indeed, having nightmares, then I'm guessing it's over the fact that perhaps she's been read the riot act by Andrea Lyons and it's sinking in. Maybe she dreams of the electric chair. I hope.

One other thing- psychopathic murderers tend to relive the murder with pleasure, not horror. If she were capable of being horrified, she would have stopped what she was doing to Caylee when she saw the look in Caylee's eyes before the moments of death. Caylee was like a bug to her. Squish.

I suspect that there are many who would support the above unquestioningly. Sorry, but I can't.

1. If you would be so kind as to give us any reference anywhere about your blanket implication that psychopaths can pass polygraphs, or that they don't
feel anxiety/stress, I'd appreciate it (assuming that you're talking about "psychopaths" as being equivalent to the diagnostic term "antisocial
pesonality disorder"). I'm having an awful time reconciling your assertion with the findings of that huge study on Viet Nam vets with a comorbidity of
PTSD and APD (and subsequent studies on Gulf War Syndrome/PTSD/APD).

2. I'm also at a loss as to where to find a reference about the sleep/dream-manifested pleasure which APDs (psychopaths) derive from revivification
(reliving/re-experiencing their prowess during murders). Help, please?

3. How do you know that KC saw the "look" in Caylee's eyes at the moment of death? Perhaps she found the child with eyes closed, already dead?
You may have access to info which I, admittedly, completely lack, but as we move into the second year of this tragedy and shift towards quality trial
preparation, I for one am going to resist like the plague any conjecture to describe any aspect of the crime. This undermines both "the People" and
the defense in their pursuit of some elusive ideal called "justice."

4. Your metaphor about a "bug/squish" is a little too macabre for me to even contemplate. If you have access to info which explains how you arrived there
which you'd be willing to share, I'd appreciate it.

5. There are disorders other than "psychopathy" where emotions manifest as driven largely by narcissistic concerns, e.g. the entire developmental period
known as "adolescence."

6. Have you read any of Andrea Lyon's articles? I won't argue that "client control" is a crucial component of any lawyer's ability to be effective, but if you can direct me
to AL's writings where she talks about "reading the riot act" early on, I'd appreciate those references, too.

Pehaps KC does dream of the electric chair, who's to say?

 

[cecybeans]

Verite, I agree with your above post completely - and it is very nicely framed.

However, although I'm afraid I can't cite published studies about sociopaths and polygraphs which you requested, I have known and worked with more than a few professional and well-respected polygraphers who both contrct with and consult for top government agencies worldwide, and anecdotally have been told that is something that is widely accepted in the field as likely, or that they have actually seen. They do not always encumber themselves with the psychological terminology or physiological explanations of why, just that they have almost all experienced it at one time or another, and once they recognize it, they use it as a cue to switch to other more sophisticated manual interrogation techniques. There are all sorts of ways to skew a poly for those with either no conscience or very strong imaginations that are not as apparent as the types who try to obfuscate the results using the much more obvious and easily discovered method of various pharmacological substances. Both attempts to deceive are generally easily discovered by seasoned professionals however, and they adjust their strategy accordingly.

 

[Verité]

Verite, I agree with your above post completely - and it is very nicely framed.

However, although I'm afraid I can't cite published studies about sociopaths and polygraphs which you requested, I have known and worked with more than a few professional and well-respected polygraphers who both contrct with and consult for top government agencies worldwide, and anecdotally have been told that is something that is widely accepted in the field as likely, or that they have actually seen. They do not always encumber themselves with the psychological terminology or physiological explanations of why, just that they have almost all experienced it at one time or another, and once they recognize it, they use it as a cue to switch to other more sophisticated manual interrogation techniques. There are all sorts of ways to skew a poly for those with either no conscience or very strong imaginations that are not as apparent as the types who try to obfuscate the results using the much more obvious and easily discovered method of various pharmacological substances. Both attempts to deceive are generally easily discovered by seasoned professionals however, and they adjust their strategy accordingly.

Thanks, cecyb, and I know, I know the argument that some of our best friends are polygraphers or various law enforcement (actually, I used to live
with one of those--how's that for oneupsmanship?). But, not all folks are as compulsively driven as you/me to provide supporting data when we're
hearing what is known in the "field" as--"wild psychoanalysis." Actually, I do admit to a type of pathology (just kidding there) which means to "know"
is to have read it in black/white (or as my son used to say when he was a kid, "Mom, if there's not a book that's been written about it, you don't
think it's worth doing!) Inquiring minds and all that! So, I betcha in this instance, I'm just gonna have to do as I usually do, go to the stacks and do
my own research, answer my own questions. Chime in if you want to, please!

 

[Verité]

. . .As for polygraphs, it is a case of mind over matter.

Psychopaths can pass polygraphs because they don't feel anxiety and stress associated with lying. And because they lack empathy, MRIs tend to show low activity when it comes to warm emotions. Add to that a lot of practice in lying, it stands to reason their physiological responses will reflect that.

I suspect that there are many who would support the above unquestioningly. Sorry, but I can't.

1. If you would be so kind as to give us any reference anywhere about your blanket implication that psychopaths can pass polygraphs, or that they don't
feel anxiety/stress, I'd appreciate it (assuming that you're talking about "psychopaths" as being equivalent to the diagnostic term "antisocial
pesonality disorder"). I'm having an awful time reconciling your assertion with the findings of that huge study on Viet Nam vets with a comorbidity of
PTSD and APD (and subsequent studies on Gulf War Syndrome/PTSD/APD).

I've spent the last couple hours reviewing the empirical literature on the above and can now share my findings. Apparently, elemenatary, you aren't
the only one with a misconception about polygraphy/psychopathy.

In one study, numerous psychology textbooks were reviewed for their assertions about polygraphy with the results showing abysmal misrepresentations.
Those study researchers recommended that the authors of psychology texts (used to teach college students) would do well to actually examine the
research literature rather than rely on the "extreme proponents" of one side or the other in the ongoing controversy about polygraph examinations,
searching for "truth rather than bias."

One misconception, stated as fact, was that polygraph tests can be fooled by people who are psychopathic. The researchers concluded that the scientific
literature does not support this claim. The data on psychopaths is particularly clear. They have no special ability to fool the polygraph. In fact,
scientific studies support the opposite conclusion with results strongly contradicting the common belief that psychopaths (sociopaths) can
"beat the polygraph."

In another study where convicted felons were diagnosed as psychopathic, not a single guilty subject was able to produce a truthful result on the exam.
Rather, there were some indications that the deception of psychopaths may be easier to detect. The results with these criminals also supported the
idea that deceptive psychopaths are as physiogically reactive and as readily detected as non-psychopaths. Thus, the fears that psychopathic
criminals are able to be successful in deception during polygraph exams can be dispelled.

This calls to mind the famous CIA agent/defector, Aldrich Ames, who assured his Russian counterpart not to worry when Ames was scheduled for
a lie detector test--because he could fool it. Despite his sophistication as a double agent, Ames failed all three of the polygraphs--though it was the
polygraph examiner's wrong conclusion that this didn't mean that Ames was a spy for the Russians; rather, he was probably just having money problems.
(It is most often examiner error which contributes to erroneous polygraph conclusions.)

(References for all the above furnished on request.)