KC's Anniversary Reaction

[Verité]

One other thing- psychopathic murderers tend to relive the murder with pleasure, not horror. If she were capable of being horrified, she would have stopped what she was doing to Caylee when she saw the look in Caylee's eyes before the moments of death. Caylee was like a bug to her. Squish.

2. Originally posted by Verité.
I'm also at a loss as to where to find a reference about the sleep/dream manifested pleasure which APDs (psychopaths) derive from revivification
(reliving/re-experiencing their prowess during murders). Help, please?

I've found no corroboration in the literature for the claim that psychopathic killers tend to relive their murders with pleasure during their sleep-dream-or
wakeful states. If you, elementary, could provide any reference for this, I'd be grateful. I assume that the only way to gain access to the data would be
through self-report, i.e. case study of the criminal, but so far I've not found anything about this phenomenon in the professional or true crime literature.

(There is, of course, the fictional account of Dr. Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs, but he's hardly representative of the population of sociopaths.)

 

[SoSueMe]

I've found no corroboration in the literature for the claim that psychopathic killers tend to relive their murders with pleasure during their sleep-dream-or
wakeful states. If you, elementary, could provide any reference for this, I'd be grateful. I assume that the only way to gain access to the data would be
through self-report, i.e. case study of the criminal, but so far I've not found anything about this phenomenon in the professional or true crime literature.

(There is, of course, the fictional account of Dr. Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs, but he's hardly representative of the population of sociopaths.)

I do know what elementary refers to in respect to psychopathic killers tending to relive their murders with pleasure and yes, I believe the data comes through self-report and case studies of these types of criminals.

If memory serves me right, this information may be found in some of Robert Ressler's books or perhaps some by John Douglas. Another good author on the subject of the psychopathic killer is My Life Among the Serial Killers by Helen Morrison, MD, although I don't recall her specifically addressing this phenomenon. She could have, I just don't recall at the moment.

Bundy seemed to be a wealth of information as to the mind of the serial killer and he himself admitted reliving his crimes with pleasure. In fact, some said it was when Bundy, acting as his own attorney, asked one particular victim to describe her attack by him, as being the nail in his coffin for a guilty verdict. It was said that the jury could tell he took full pleasure in reliving that event in an open courtroom.

I cringe when I hear of judges who, as part of a killer's punishment, will instruct the condemned to put pictures of their victims in their prison cell. I would imagine the idea is for them to suffer, looking at the picture every day of their lives, but wonder if some don't get pleasure from those pictures, recalling their crimes.

Of course we may be mixing apples and oranges here because it has not been proven that KC is a true psychopath and I certainly don't believe she is a serial killer.

All JMO.

 

[SoSueMe]

As to a polygraph, I suppose the test depends on the abilities of the operator. Not all police agencies have access to the more sophisticated process described by cecybeans.

How do you account for Bundy and the Green River Killer passing polygraphs?

I thought the polygraph process detected things like perspiration and if the guilty party has the ability to remain calm under all or most circumstances (not much affects them), how can they get an accurate reading? As I said, not all have state-of-the-art equipment and/or well advanced polygraphers, no?

 

[SleuthyMama]

Why do folks assume that new DP attorney AL would be the one to guide the 'faking' of an anniversary reaction? From reading her articles, I just don't
perceive her as the impulsive type who will rush in and start directing and choreographing before she has laid tremendous groundwork. Her emphasis
instead is on laying a durable foundation by developing rapport and establishing an unshakable trusting, working alliance over substantial time with her
DP clients who tend to be completely mistrustful of everyone.

In this case, we know that the only person KC appears to trust absolutely is one who early on impulsively rushed in where wise men fear to tread.
That advisor would be the one I'd suspect of coaching in every realm from jail cell to courtroom behavior. The one occasion when he was unable
to gain access to peremptorily launder her brain was when she reacted to the finding of her daughter's remains. . .but he's now been able to keep
her unabridged reaction sealed from public scrutiny. Given his connections to the entertainment industry, I hear he's keeping KC in tow by having
radio stations play almost non-stop Lady GaGa's Poker Face. LOL

Sorry to sound so vague. You probably can't even guess the identity of this Svengali who, we heard just yesterday, won't even allow KC to have visits
with her family, right?

I'm not assuming that she is telling her to do that. What the gist of my post was really about was that Casey does what is best for CASEY. It's a nonstop all about Casey show in her world. So, IF someone (and it doesn't have to be the new attorney...it could be JB...it could be Lady GaGa for all I care) suggested to Casey or made it somehow known to Casey that it would further Casey's agenda and help save her azz, then I could see her doing it. That's what I was trying to say.

 

[Mendara]

I honestly believe Casey murdered her daughter and convinced herself she was doing it for an important reason, then spent time convincing herself that it was the right thing to do, then spent more time convincing herself that she didn't actually do it herself, then spent additional time telling herself that someone else killed Caylee, then continued to fuel her lies with positioning herself as a victim of many things, including her parent's mistakes, I think she has now recreated herself to be a "young, ignoarant, naive, mother" who was negligent and let her child be exposed to danger, but not directly at fault.

The trial will be about Casey not having the correct mothering tools, leaving Caylee somewhere alone and exposed to other possible suspects.

I think Casey cries at night because Caylee was a beautiful baby girl that at times she did love and enjoy and the image of her dead haunts her, but not enough for her to admit anything to anyone. She will take this with her to her death.

 

[SleuthyMama]

I agree with you, Mendara in that I do believe Casey had love for Caylee.

I just think her own love for herself was far far greater than any love she had for Caylee or anyone else for that matter.

 

[Verité]

I do know what elementary refers to in respect to psychopathic killers tending to relive their murders with pleasure and yes, I believe the data comes through self-report and case studies of these types of criminals.

If memory serves me right, this information may be found in some of Robert Ressler's books or perhaps some by John Douglas. Another good author on the subject of the psychopathic killer is My Life Among the Serial Killers by Helen Morrison, MD, although I don't recall her specifically addressing this phenomenon. She could have, I just don't recall at the moment.

Bundy seemed to be a wealth of information as to the mind of the serial killer and he himself admitted reliving his crimes with pleasure. In fact, some said it was when Bundy, acting as his own attorney, asked one particular victim to describe her attack by him, as being the nail in his coffin for a guilty verdict. It was said that the jury could tell he took full pleasure in reliving that event in an open courtroom.

I cringe when I hear of judges who, as part of a killer's punishment, will instruct the condemned to put pictures of their victims in their pison cell. I would imagine the idea is for them to suffer, looking at the picture every day of their lives, but wonder if some don't get pleasure from those pictures, recalling their crimes.

Of course we may be mixing apples and oranges here because it has not been proven that KC is a true psychopath and I certainly don't believe she is a serial killer.

All JMO.

bold mine

Now here's a post for ya'! Thanks, so much, SSM, for your examples of books which I can turn to for exploration of the gory topic of savoring one's past murders.
Of course, John Douglas would be a likely resource, so thanx for that reminder plus the others. (I don't know if you intended the next-to-last word as is in that first
sentence, 4th paragraph, or if it was a Freudian slip, but regardless, it sure is a creative/graphic new label for those type "cells.")

My concern is well stated in your last sentence. During this next year, I think we (me included) must move past rigid projections to dispassionate
investigation (sleuthing) about the KC phenomenon. I, too, don't think that there's any data to suggest that she's a serial killer. Your contributions are
right on, as always!

 

[Verité]

I'm not assuming that she is telling her to do that. What the gist of my post was really about was that Casey does what is best for CASEY. It's a nonstop all about Casey show in her world. So, IF someone (and it doesn't have to be the new attorney...it could be JB...it could be Lady GaGa for all I care) suggested to Casey or made it somehow known to Casey that it would further Casey's agenda and help save her azz, then I could see her doing it. That's what I was trying to say.

Re your rejection of the notion that Casey may have an authentic anniversary reaction--unless coached to fake it so as to further her own "let me outa here"
agenda, I see her as much too narcissistic to display herself in a vulnerable, grieving state. She's so rigidly defended by false pride that I've only heard of
that veneer starting to crack a couple times since she's been in custody, and defense counsel just won the right to prevent the public from seeing her at
her most vulnerable. Thus, sleep may be the only time that an anniv. reac. manifests, and even then KC denies it when she awakens.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I agree with you, Mendara in that I do believe Casey had love for Caylee.

I just think her own love for herself was far far greater than any love she had for Caylee or anyone else for that matter.

Ya see, I don't see it like that. How can we say Casey loves herself? xxxxI don't think Casey loved herself at all, I think she hated herself. She hated her life, her mother, her father, her "cheap" cell phone.. she hated everything she was so much that she pretended she was someone else entirely.

You cannot love anyone unless you love youself. She is incapable.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Re your rejection of the notion that Casey may have an authentic anniversary reaction--unless coached to fake it so as to further her own "let me outa here"
agenda, I see her as much too narcissistic to display herself in a vulnerable, grieving state. She's so rigidly defended by false pride that I've only heard of
that veneer starting to crack a couple times since she's been in custody, and defense counsel just won the right to prevent the public from seeing her at
her most vulnerable. Thus, sleep may be the only time that an anniv. reac. manifests, and even then KC denies it when she awakens.

Not that it matters but ITA!

 

[Verité]

Not that it matters but ITA!

You matter! :blowkiss: Right back at ya'!

 

[akashana]

I do know what elementary refers to in respect to psychopathic killers tending to relive their murders with pleasure and yes, I believe the data comes through self-report and case studies of these types of criminals.
If memory serves me right, this information may be found in some of Robert Ressler's books or perhaps some by John Douglas. Another good author on the subject of the psychopathic killer is My Life Among the Serial Killers by Helen Morrison, MD, although I don't recall her specifically addressing this phenomenon. She could have, I just don't recall at the moment.

Bundy seemed to be a wealth of information as to the mind of the serial killer and he himself admitted reliving his crimes with pleasure. In fact, some said it was when Bundy, acting as his own attorney, asked one particular victim to describe her attack by him, as being the nail in his coffin for a guilty verdict. It was said that the jury could tell he took full pleasure in reliving that event in an open courtroom.

I cringe when I hear of judges who, as part of a killer's punishment, will instruct the condemned to put pictures of their victims in their pison cell. I would imagine the idea is for them to suffer, looking at the picture every day of their lives, but wonder if some don't get pleasure from those pictures, recalling their crimes.

Of course we may be mixing apples and oranges here because it has not been proven that KC is a true psychopath and I certainly don't believe she is a serial killer.

All JMO.

MY BOLD

I also have read in one or more of the Bundy biographies that he was one who liked to relive the moments of his victims' deaths, and that he on at least one occasion removed the victim's head and brought it home where he spent time washing the hair and applying make-up before ultimately dumping it at one of his sites. Bundy was very multi-faceted and fascinates me from a psychological standpoint for many reasons. I see a few parallels between him and KC. I think she would kill again one day if she never got caught for this crime. Not in the extreme that Bundy did, of course, but if somebody got in her way in a love triangle or became a major inconvenience (elderly parent or disabled spouse, for instance), I can see her finding a permanent solution to her problem yet again. I'm still not sure KC really "gets it," that what she did was horrendous. I think she views it more as as "Whoops! My bad!" type of boo-boo that can be overlooked.

 

[OneLostGrl]

MY BOLD

I also have read in one or more of the Bundy biographies that he was one who liked to relive the moments of his victims' deaths, and that he on at least one occasion removed the victim's head and brought it home where he spent time washing the hair and applying make-up before ultimately dumping it at one of his sites. Bundy was very multi-faceted and fascinates me from a psychological standpoint for many reasons. I see a few parallels between him and KC. I think she would kill again one day if she never got caught for this crime. Not in the extreme that Bundy did, of course, but if somebody got in her way in a love triangle or became a major inconvenience (elderly parent or disabled spouse, for instance), I can see her finding a permanent solution to her problem yet again. I'm still not sure KC really "gets it," that what she did was horrendous. I think she views it more as as "Whoops! My bad!" type of boo-boo that can be overlooked.

Bold is mine.

I agree. Everything she has ever done wrong had been overlooked. Of course she thought it would be the same this time.

 

[Kateyes]

I am on the fence on this report, if it is true. I would like to believe that KC does scream from memories of what she did to Caylee - I would really like to believe that Caylee haunts her.

But I also wonder if the addition of AL, death penalty lawyer, hasn't caused her predicament to finally sink into her brain - she may get the death penalty. Perhaps her screams are from dreams of being strapped to the gurney for lethal injection...She will never say, that is for sure. Convicted or found not-guilty, she will take her knowledge of what really happened to Caylee to her grave with her. JMHO

 

[snow_walker]

Who knows what is true and what is not with this whole case? All we can do is speculate and infer from what we hear and and from our own expierience.

I also don't put a whole lot of faith in any experts opinion of any psycological condition, psycology seems to me to be more of an art form than of a science, and at that it is a relatively new field in human history, and in an early stage of understanding. At least as compared to many diseases and afflictions. So I shall stick with what has seemed to me to be true, in my life expierience, and leave the researching to those who are more interested in expert opinions.

I also don't think that psycopaths are totally evil, the way the text books seem to proclaim .. I have yet to see one who was, in any event, and I have known and worked with many of them (certified to be psycopaths by prison psycologists).

Just as an example, they may well recognize their immediate family (or race, or religious group) as 'people not to be harmed' and yet prey on other people who do not fall into those groups. Some love animals, even becoming vegetarians to avoid harming them, (Hitler for example) while others torture them..I have seen the prison cat being lovingly carried around hour after hour in the arms of vicious men, they kept it close to them for fear that 'some fool in this place might hurt her'..(that cat lived to be 19 years old, died of old age, and was deeply and truly mourned by men who had never once shed a tear for their own victims)..the worst spoilt feline I have ever encountered

no one is pure evil, even Ted Bundy saved lives as best he could on that suicide prevention line.

From what I have seen, they have some sort of moral code in their head, and as long as they follow whatever twisted logic they think is correct, they don't suffer any pangs of guilt. It is when they go beyond that level and do something against their own (admittedly distorted) code that they suffer for it, although probably not as much as a normal person would.

So in my view it is quite possible that KC is a true psycopath, while still having nightmares and sufferring anniversary regret. One thing being true does not rule out the other also being true.

 

[SoSueMe]

Ya see, I don't see it like that. How can we say Casey loves herself? xxxxI don't think Casey loved herself at all, I think she hated herself. She hated her life, her mother, her father, her "cheap" cell phone.. she hated everything she was so much that she pretended she was someone else entirely.

You cannot love anyone unless you love youself. She is incapable.

I so agree OLG. If you have ever looked at KC's icons that she collected for her PhotoBucket account you can get a hint of what was going through her mind. Really look at them and get lost in them and you will see a horribly sad person. Her main themes seemed to have been love, boys, rejection, lies, inner conflicts and death.

 

[Verité]

Who knows what is true and what is not with this whole case? All we can do is speculate and infer from what we hear and and from our own expierience.

I also don't put a whole lot of faith in any experts opinion of any psycological condition, psycology seems to me to be more of an art form than of a science, and at that it is a relatively new field in human history, and in an early stage of understanding. At least as compared to many diseases and afflictions. So I shall stick with what has seemed to me to be true, in my life expierience, and leave the researching to those who are more interested in expert opinions.

I also don't think that psycopaths are totally evil, the way the text books seem to proclaim .. I have yet to see one who was, in any event, and I have known and worked with many of them (certified to be psycopaths by prison psycologists).

Just as an example, they may well recognize their immediate family (or race, or religious group) as 'people not to be harmed' and yet prey on other people who do not fall into those groups. Some love animals, even becoming vegetarians to avoid harming them, (Hitler for example) while others torture them..I have seen the prison cat being lovingly carried around hour after hour in the arms of vicious men, they kept it close to them for fear that 'some fool in this place might hurt her'..(that cat lived to be 19 years old, died of old age, and was deeply and truly mourned by men who had never once shed a tear for their own victims)..the worst spoilt feline I have ever encountered

no one is pure evil, even Ted Bundy saved lives as best he could on that suicide prevention line.

From what I have seen, they have some sort of moral code in their head, and as long as they follow whatever twisted logic they think is correct, they don't suffer any pangs of guilt. It is when they go beyond that level and do something against their own (admittedly distorted) code that they suffer for it, although probably not as much as a normal person would.

So in my view it is quite possible that KC is a true psycopath, while still having nightmares and sufferring anniversary regret. One thing being true does not rule out the other also being true.

bold mine

Re the bolded statement above, as the KC trial commences, something which may keep us all level-headed about "experts" is the opinion of Mark Twain
who said, "An expert is just a guy from out of town."

 

[essies]

I so agree OLG. If you have ever looked at KC's icons that she collected for her PhotoBucket account you can get a hint of what was going through her mind. Really look at them and get lost in them and you will see a horribly sad person. Her main themes seemed to have been love, boys, rejection, lies, inner conflicts and death.

ITA It's a very scary look inside of a very scary mind! It just proves the old saying about not judging a book by it's cover! Her cover was like a Harlequin Romance novel but, inside she was Stephen King!:furious:

 

[Gma Kat]

I am unsure as to why you think Caylee's disappearance happened on 6/9/08 or 6/10/08? She was seen with Cindy on 6/15/08.

Probably previously discussed, but would love to know your theory on those dates.

I thought Verite meant that is when the symptoms would likely start surfacing, not that those were the dates of the crime. IMO.

 

[Gma Kat]

If we can assume that the unconscious mind is vast and capable of forms of communication which science still doesn't fully explain, perhaps a plausible
explanation of a "haunting" is a form of unconscious communication with the lost loved-one (in this case, Caylee!).

Another explanation of a "haunting" is the reliving (known as revivification by psychiatrists) of the traumatic event where the mind and respective
sensory mechanisms (sight, smell, sound, etc.) are especially acute. (In my own experience, the anniversary reaction used to be "triggered" by the
sights, sounds, smells, flowers and other plants, weather and general atmosphere of the time of year.) Of course, KC is locked up, but the mind remembers!

Awesome info Verite as always. Personally I have a couple, or a few of these terrible anniversaries. For about a month before I start writing the year wrong (obviously the year of the negative event), and on the day, even though I nearly never think of the event itself after all these years, it is as though it is the very same day again. Also, every time the wind blows, yes, every time, it reminds me. I'm amazed, and really wish I could change it. Also, I recall hearing that Scott Peterson was haunted by Lacey in his dreams too.