KC's Pregnancy/Denial (Merged Threads)

[seagull65]

Guys bear with me, but I have been thinking for awhile that Casey never intended on bringing up Caylee or allowing her to live much past her first breath. I don't think we can ignore the pregnancy denial. Think of all those girls who hide their pregnancy, then deliver in secret and carry on as if nothing ever happened. If Rick hadn't intervened and forced Cindy and George to acknowledge the fact that Casey was pregnant, I think that Casey would have just had her somewhere, disposed of her then carried on with her life as if she had been some kind of benign tumor which had miraculously disappeared. Caylee's eventual murder was possibly an overdue event in Casey's mind if this theory is correct and she had been living on borrowed time. Do any of you think this scenario is possible?

This is from a story which wrapped up last week, which set me to thinking, would Casey have acted the same way towards Caylee as Keli Lane did towards Tegan if she had never been exposed at the wedding?

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/pregnancy-denial-linked-to-lifestyle-20101214-18wwg.html

whether this is what happened in this case I don't know, but of course this phenomenon certainly can happen, and you put it very well. In this case there are some facts that would seem (to me, MOO) to argue against it. Casey didn't pursue an abortion or apparently even look into it, never pursued options to give Caylee up for adoption despite opportunities, refused a friend who wanted to adopt Caylee (of course the offer of adoption from KMTC was pretty weird, but Casey could easily have given Caylee up for adoption to another adoptive family.)

Despite the media image of Casey supposedly never having wanted Caylee etc, in reality, all the old friends and family who were around Casey throughout the pregnancy and Caylee's lifetime say that Casey had a very good bond with Caylee, apparently she breastfed her as an infant, provided very good care for her throughout her almost 3 years of life, showed a concern for her safety and welfare, and "spoiled" her. And according to friends, Caylee liked to be held by Casey, didn't like for Casey to go out of her sight, she was bonded to Casey. Regarding the denial of the pregnancy at the wedding, I think it's possible that Cindy just had no desire to discuss the subject with Rick or other relatives at the wedding and felt that it was a private matter.

But I can't totally rule out the theory you describe either, imo.
I do think there seem to be avoidance/denial/stalling/pretending type behaviors by Casey in other ways from what we've read/seen, so.....

On the other hand again, Casey had cared for Caylee well throughout infancy and for these almost 3 years, and Caylee was now of an age she could soon go into preschool during the days etc. Casey had always been able to leave Caylee with her mother in the evenings to a great degree, she knew she could leave Caylee with her parents if she did want to lessen her parental responsibilities or even give up custody completely if she wanted to her mother, while still being able to see Caylee if she wanted.

If Casey is in fact the person who killed Caylee, I still have the gut feeling it would not have been because of an ongoing desire to be rid of Caylee. Maybe because of something else that happened in June 2008. For example if something bad had happened to Caylee that Casey did not know how to face her parents or authorities with, something she would not be able to conceal or explain away, whether an injury or other bad event happening to Caylee. Or possibly it was an accidental death that Casey didn't have the courage to face her parents with. Or, who knows, what if Casey had the onset of serious mental illness or began using more drugs that we're aware of during the time frame and had a radical change in her behavior, though friends say they didn't notice anything like that. (And I also consider it possible that Casey herself was not the killer.)
Thanks for the good thread and discussion, I don't rule out your theory

 

[ynotdivein]

(snip)

If Casey is in fact the person who killed Caylee, I still have the gut feeling it would not have been because of an ongoing desire to be rid of Caylee. Maybe because of something else that happened in June 2008. For example if something bad had happened to Caylee that Casey did not know how to face her parents or authorities with, something she would not be able to conceal or explain away, whether an injury or other bad event happening to Caylee. Or possibly it was an accidental death that Casey didn't have the courage to face her parents with. Or, who knows, what if Casey had the onset of serious mental illness or began using more drugs that we're aware of during the time frame and had a radical change in her behavior, though friends say they didn't notice anything like that. (And I also consider it possible that Casey herself was not the killer.)
Thanks for the good thread and discussion, I don't rule out your theory

RS&BBM...

Three layers of duct tape were wrapped so tightly over Caylee's mouth and nose that after her flesh decayed, the tape held her mandible in place and her hair around her skull... Somehow that does not scream "accident" or "mishap."

I don't pretend to fathom exactly when KC decided to kill her daughter. In fact I don't know that she ever decided to kill Caylee, as much as she got herself accustomed to the possible future fact of Caylee being gone. IMO, the murder itself was the least of her worries and probably came pretty easy to her. And once Caylee was dead and in the trunk, the next time KC had to think about her was when she started to smell... at which point, poof, she disappeared her down the street in the swamp.

Life without Caylee was always haunting the back of KC's mind. Did she premeditate exactly how she would murder her daughter? Maybe not. But she made space in her mind for a life of freedom without Caylee and when her rage or negligence caused that baby's death, she grabbed some duct tape and some bags from the garage and made the most of what she saw as a grand opportunity.

 

[Tink]

Just a couple of thoughts...the fact that Caylee wanted to be with her mother and got upset if she left the room, doesn't necessarily mean she was being "well-mothered" or had a good, secure attachment. Excessive clinginess can also be a sign of an insecure attachment, of a child who is trying to maintain a relationship with a parent she feels uncertain about or even fears.

I also think that the desire to be rid of Caylee may have had something to do with Caylee's getting older. As a baby or toddler, she would have been relatively easy to take along for overnights with various boys and to parties. But as she became an increasingly aware and verbal child, I suspect that KC's sexual partners were less and less comfortable about having Caylee along for overnights, and KC must have been concerned that Caylee would tell people things she'd seen. She was getting to the point where she might have said to Tony "we stayed over at Uncle Ricardo's last night" or told Cindy about the realities of her life. I think that's what KC was afraid of - her whole network of lies could tumble down if Caylee started to tell what she knew.

Tink

 

[logicalgirl]

Just a couple of thoughts...the fact that Caylee wanted to be with her mother and got upset if she left the room, doesn't necessarily mean she was being "well-mothered" or had a good, secure attachment. Excessive clinginess can also be a sign of an insecure attachment, of a child who is trying to maintain a relationship with a parent she feels uncertain about or even fears.

I also think that the desire to be rid of Caylee may have had something to do with Caylee's getting older. As a baby or toddler, she would have been relatively easy to take along for overnights with various boys and to parties. But as she became an increasingly aware and verbal child, I suspect that KC's sexual partners were less and less comfortable about having Caylee along for overnights, and KC must have been concerned that Caylee would tell people things she'd seen. She was getting to the point where she might have said to Tony "we stayed over at Uncle Ricardo's last night" or told Cindy about the realities of her life. I think that's what KC was afraid of - her whole network of lies could tumble down if Caylee started to tell what she knew.

Tink

Yes, something simple like - no jammies Nana - no put on jammies - Mommy doesn't wear her jammies when we sleep in Uncle Ricardo's bed - sigh.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

BBM- Ha! Yeah, I would not have known if my daughter were taken away on the back of a donkey, I was so stoned from the baby-havin' drugs.
But really? KC was so affected by it? And she was not having an easy time of the whole procedure, but found a way to be deeply resentful? Yep, whack-a-doodle.
However,, they do know how to keep bizarre grudges, the Anthonys. But as with everything in their world, I think there's more to it, maybe like custody threats before Caylee was born...

It is odd to picture Casey being genuinely upset by that. She didn't have a problem handing Caylee off to Cindy for the next 2 years. Are we REALLY supposed to believe Casey cared a whit about who held Caylee? I guess she is attached to Caylee when it benefits her/gets her praise or attention.

 

[Cabin girl]

I suspect that Casey enjoyed being the center of attention as a pregnant woman. Cindy has mentioned a baby shower and showed Greta something she made as a keepsake of that baby shower. I think Casey loved that attention, receiving gifts and her mom opening her wallet for all the baby furniture.

Coming home from the hospital with a new baby, Casey was again the center of attention and likely received more gifts.

But, as Caylee grew older and started having the first of many firsts - first smile, first laugh, sitting up for the first time, creeping, first step, first tooth, etc., the attention was drawn away from Casey and now Caylee was the center of attention.

On top of Caylee being the center of attention, she also needed a lot of care and taking care of Caylee didn't allow Casey to do what she wanted. I think Casey's resentment of Caylee began very early on.

And let's not forget, Caylee, at almost three years old was becoming very verbal. ICA had to be threatened that Caylee would innocently expose her lies and I suspect the abuse as well. I wonder if Caylee hated getting in the car. How many times did ICA knock her out there? Did she wake up in the trunk more than once?

 

[LCoastMom]

Or maybe she lied to her friends, told them she was pregnant, and lied about the father and that everything was going to be okay. She probably wove some grand story to them about this pregnancy and they just went along with it and didn't question her about it. She had no reason to keep this from her friends, and I can see her totally doing this just to get on Cindy's nerves. Cindy can't control how Casey is around her friends.

Either that or Cindy kept her locked in her room for nine months, only letting her leave for things like Rick's wedding.

To hear CA tell it, the pregnancy was an immaculate conception - pretty darn grandiose!

ICA was newly in a relationship with JG, if her last actions were a sign of past history - she spent most of her time with him and she actually had a job to go to way back when.

 

[logicalgirl]

To hear CA tell it, the pregnancy was an immaculate conception - pretty darn grandiose!

ICA was newly in a relationship with JG, if her last actions were a sign of past history - she spent most of her time with him and she actually had a job to go to way back when.

I think most mothers have an issue with saying - yup - my daughter is a s**t and she has no idea who the father is, particular to a critical family member.

 

[LCoastMom]

I think most mothers have an issue with saying - yup - my daughter is a s**t and she has no idea who the father is, particular to a critical family member.

I wouldn't expect her to, but since CA toted a very pregnant ICA to her brother's wedding, you would think she could have done better than "She's a virgin (none of their business) and It's a tumor - (an obvious lie).

CA and ICA had other choices (1) leaving ICA at home, (2) telling her brother to MYOB - his wedding was not the time or the place for this discussion! Oh and (3) wearing a dress that didn't shout out: BABY ON BOARD!

Maybe something along the lines of "If there is an announcement to be made, we'll let you know."

The dynamics of this family never cease to amaze.

 

[logicalgirl]

I wouldn't expect her to, but since CA toted a very pregnant ICA to her brother's wedding, you would think she could have done better than "She's a virgin (none of their business) and It's a tumor - (an obvious lie).

CA and ICA had other choices (1) leaving ICA at home, (2) telling her brother to MYOB - his wedding was not the time or the place for this discussion! Oh and (3) wearing a dress that didn't shout out: BABY ON BOARD!

Maybe something along the lines of "If there is an announcement to be made, we'll let you know."

The dynamics of this family never cease to amaze.

Umm - maybe this is just a sample of Anthony family attempting humor?:floorlaugh:

 

[LolaMoon08]

whether this is what happened in this case I don't know, but of course this phenomenon certainly can happen, and you put it very well. In this case there are some facts that would seem (to me, MOO) to argue against it. Casey didn't pursue an abortion or apparently even look into it, never pursued options to give Caylee up for adoption despite opportunities, refused a friend who wanted to adopt Caylee (of course the offer of adoption from KMTC was pretty weird, but Casey could easily have given Caylee up for adoption to another adoptive family.)

I guess we are assuming that Casey did not look into abortion or adoption? I could easily assume that she did look into both options. There is no proof either way. To think I'm going to take any of the Anthony's words on the matter, is just not going to happen! The fact is, Casey could have easily walked into any of the Planned Parenthoods and gone over her options. She was an adult. She didn't need her parents permission. It would be confidential. I'm not saying that she did do anything like this, but just as easy as it is to assume that she did not, it is easy to assume that she did. We just don't know?

Despite the media image of Casey supposedly never having wanted Caylee etc, in reality, all the old friends and family who were around Casey throughout the pregnancy and Caylee's lifetime say that Casey had a very good bond with Caylee, apparently she breastfed her as an infant, provided very good care for her throughout her almost 3 years of life, showed a concern for her safety and welfare, and "spoiled" her. And according to friends, Caylee liked to be held by Casey, didn't like for Casey to go out of her sight, she was bonded to Casey. Regarding the denial of the pregnancy at the wedding, I think it's possible that Cindy just had no desire to discuss the subject with Rick or other relatives at the wedding and felt that it was a private matter.

If I was a young mother, and I didn't have to provide the physical, emotional or financial care for my young child that 99% of other mothers do, I would be able to pull off the appearance of a perfect loving mother for a few hours. Never frustrated. Never overwhelmed. Never tired. etc...

I would really like the proof that shows that Casey cared for Caylee physically, emotionally, and financially for the almost 3 years of her life? From all accounts, and George's own words before he started lying, they (Cindy and George) had Caylee 99% of the time. We know that Casey pushed Caylee off on Lauren and the Grunds during the first year of her life.

I don't know about you, but I have seen maybe 10-20 pictures of Casey actually with Caylee in them? You would think that of all the pictures she sold, she'd want to include the ones of herself with Caylee?

Casey "spoiled" Caylee? Really? Cindy spoiled Caylee! Cindy provided for Caylee! Cindy provided a home for Caylee! Cindy fed Caylee! Cindy clothed Caylee! Cindy paid for Caylee's medical care! Cindy provided a childrens wonderland in that home for Caylee! Casey did NOTHING for Caylee!

But I can't totally rule out the theory you describe either, imo.
I do think there seem to be avoidance/denial/stalling/pretending type behaviors by Casey in other ways from what we've read/seen, so.....

On the other hand again, Casey had cared for Caylee well throughout infancy and for these almost 3 years, and Caylee was now of an age she could soon go into preschool during the days etc. Casey had always been able to leave Caylee with her mother in the evenings to a great degree, she knew she could leave Caylee with her parents if she did want to lessen her parental responsibilities or even give up custody completely if she wanted to her mother, while still being able to see Caylee if she wanted.

How in the world would Casey be able to afford daycare if she was not working? Why would she even need daycare if she was not working?

Yes, Casey was able to leave Caylee with Cindy, but Casey would NEVER give Caylee to Cindy. Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee. Caylee was a game piece in a vicious game between these two women.

If Casey is in fact the person who killed Caylee, I still have the gut feeling it would not have been because of an ongoing desire to be rid of Caylee. Maybe because of something else that happened in June 2008. For example if something bad had happened to Caylee that Casey did not know how to face her parents or authorities with, something she would not be able to conceal or explain away, whether an injury or other bad event happening to Caylee. Or possibly it was an accidental death that Casey didn't have the courage to face her parents with. Or, who knows, what if Casey had the onset of serious mental illness or began using more drugs that we're aware of during the time frame and had a radical change in her behavior, though friends say they didn't notice anything like that. (And I also consider it possible that Casey herself was not the killer.)
Thanks for the good thread and discussion, I don't rule out your theory

What part of three pieces of duct tape wrapped around a two-year-old babies face makes you believe that this was an accident? I really want to understand this?

The duct tape is just a sliver of evidence that proves that someone, and I am not willing to blame Cindy and George for the actual murder of Caylee, from that Hopespring Drive home murdered Caylee. Are you willing to believe that some mysterious person had complete access to the Anthony home AND Casey's car?

Look, early on in this case, I would have loved nothing more than to know (or even think) that a mother could not do this to their own child. Looking at the evidence in this case, it is 100% clear, to me, that Casey Anthony murdered her daughter, Caylee Anthony. There is nothing that has come out in these past two and a half years that has given me reason to look at anyone other than Casey Anthony. I do not believe she had help! I believe she is 100% responsible to the actual murder and I think the motive is simple, and she, herself, said it best, she's a "spiteful *****."

 

[Beatrice]

This is just my opinion.....

Casey did not want to have the baby. Cindy talked her into it by promising her that she would give her all she needed to raise Caylee. That Casey would not have to work & all her needs would be provided for.

Of course, as time passed this agreement fell apart.
As Caylee grew older & began to talk.....Things got stressful for Casey.

Because of Cindy's confusion over June 9th and June 15th.....I think there was a full-out argument on June 9th where Cindy gave Casey an ultimatum.
Cindy & George were going on vacation & they expected Casey to make an effort to bond with Caylee. If not, they would adopt Caylee and Casey would be out on her own.

They pulled the rug from under her. A sociopathic, delusuional, addicted daughter.

Remember Casey's "ME, TOO!" Was she also planning a vacation?
Cindy & George, Amy & Ricardo, and Tony...all on vacation.

Where was Casey on Father's Day? Did she know that her embezzlement of money was to come to the forefront? Cindy claims she was in the pool with Casey....No....It was Caylee & Casey felt it was too cold. (A lie?) Wouldn't that be the time to discusss the embezzlement of the grandparent's money?

 

[angeldust]

See I just cant shwallow all this nonsense that kc didnt want the baby and cindy MADE her keep it. First of all, if kc didnt want the baby then she could have took care of that and no one even would have known she was pregnant, also cindy didnt find out, whether she choose to ignore it or not, that St Mary the Virgin was pregnant for 7 months, far too late to be doing anything about it aaaand we only have kc friends word for that and kc couldnt tell the truth if it slapped her in the face so no Im not buying it x sorry

 

[Beatrice]

See I just cant shwallow all this nonsense that kc didnt want the baby and cindy MADE her keep it. First of all, if kc didnt want the baby then she could have took care of that and no one even would have known she was pregnant, also cindy didnt find out, whether she choose to ignore it or not, that St Mary the Virgin was pregnant for 7 months, far too late to be doing anything about it aaaand we only have kc friends word for that and kc couldnt tell the truth if it slapped her in the face so no Im not buying it x sorry

Who held Caylee right after her birth?

 

[Tulessa]

See I just cant shwallow all this nonsense that kc didnt want the baby and cindy MADE her keep it. First of all, if kc didnt want the baby then she could have took care of that and no one even would have known she was pregnant, also cindy didnt find out, whether she choose to ignore it or not, that St Mary the Virgin was pregnant for 7 months, far too late to be doing anything about it aaaand we only have kc friends word for that and kc couldnt tell the truth if it slapped her in the face so no Im not buying it x sorry

Keep in mind who we are talking about here. ICA loved money too GOOD to waste it on an abortion. After all, how was she going to pay her cell phone bill if she paid for the abortion? ICA DID want to let he friend adopt the baby and that's when CA put her foot down. What was the man's name who ICA borrowed the shovel from? He witnessed those fights also IIRC.

 

[lowens1975]

See I just cant shwallow all this nonsense that kc didnt want the baby and cindy MADE her keep it. First of all, if kc didnt want the baby then she could have took care of that and no one even would have known she was pregnant, also cindy didnt find out, whether she choose to ignore it or not, that St Mary the Virgin was pregnant for 7 months, far too late to be doing anything about it aaaand we only have kc friends word for that and kc couldnt tell the truth if it slapped her in the face so no Im not buying it x sorry

She may have not wanted the baby but didn't have money or means to do anything about it. Casey was 18, right? I'm not 100% sure about that, but if she was, then that would mean that CA's insurance at work would no longer allow CA to carry Casey. You know ICA, she probably thought she could fool her parents long enough to give birth and give the child up for adoption. By all accounts, she only had to fool them for a couple of more months.

She could have found out about her own pregnancy too late to terminate it.

Kiomarie was right on the money when she told LE that she thought they ought to the check the woods at the back of the school. Unless she and ICA had a bad falling out, she wouldn't have any reason to lie to LE about the conversation she said she had with ICA about adopting Caylee.

So far, nothing has been released that would discredit Kiomarie, on the other hand, you could fill up a blank copy of 'War and Peace' with ICA's lies.

And...to keep it on topic..the struggle of CA trying to keep ICA focused on being a mother instead of growing up to be a shot girl at Fusion caused friction, and that in turn kept them going at each other over Caylee.

 

[LolaMoon08]

Everyone needs to remember that Casey actually had a job before Caylee was born so she could have afforded to get an abortion if she wanted to. She was an adult. I do not think she was forced by Cindy, or anyone else, to have Caylee.

Also, Casey didn't need her parents permission to give Caylee up for adoption if that is what she wanted to do. When it comes to adoption, Cindy and George would have no rights that I know of to stop Casey from putting Caylee up for adoption.

Again, something that had been brewing exploded on June 15th, 2008. I don't know if it is how Casey planned it... or even if that was the moment she was going to carry out her plans. I will say this... Caylee's days were numbered no matter how it happened... why it happened... and when it happened. If it didn't happen on June 15/16th... it would have happened eventually.

MOO

 

[Tulessa]

There seems to be a lot of interest in this alone, so I thought I would start a thread just to discuss it.

How did she hide it for so long?

I will tell you now how it was for me. Until I hit my eighth month and started showing, I doubted I was pregnant. Back in the 70's, I chose not to know the sex of my son. I wanted it to be a surprise. I'm tiny, I'm five feet and NO Inches (most Cherokees are short) and weigh a whopping 100 pounds. When I had my son, I weighed 136 and they didn't make maternity clothes small enough to fit me lol. It's VERY possible that ICA didn't start showing until her last few months. I was eight months before I even got a bulge in my tummy. So I think of this when I think of ICA not showing. If I hadn't been reassured by my Dr. That I was INDEED pregnant, I would have doubted it myself. My son was born weighing seven pounds and six ounces and is now 6'3 and a whopping 200 pound. He's also the light of my life.

 

[lowens1975]

Could a mod maybe move some of the discussion over here?

 

[luv]

If she wore baggy clothes she may have been able to hide her pregnacy but if you look at her in this photo she doesn't seem to make any attempt to hide her belly.

http://humbleopinion.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/caseypreg.jpg?w=112&h=275