Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[BOESP]

Linda, iirc, that bat was found out back on Burke's end of the house. It had a fiber on it from the basement, but that fiber would only connect the bat to the basement and not to the crime.

There is a lay-out of all four floors of the Ramsey home somewhere but I can't seem to find it at the moment. Maybe it is in the "album" in WS member Agatha C's personal page. The layout shows the location of the bat.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda, iirc, that bat was found out back on Burke's end of the house. It had a fiber on it from the basement, but that fiber would only connect the bat to the basement and not to the crime.

There is a lay-out of all four floors of the Ramsey home somewhere but I can't seem to find it at the moment. Maybe it is in the "album" in WS member Agatha C's personal page. The layout shows the location of the bat.

Thank you.

For some reason I had previously been under the assumption it was found further out in the yard.


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[BOESP]

Thank you.

For some reason I had previously been under the assumption it was found further out in the yard.

Found the link: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer2/primer10_blue.html

Look on the lower right side of the diagram, the ground floor, and you'll see the location of the baseball bat.

 

[lawstudent]

Welcome to the Court of Public Opinion lawstudent!

BBM. What I don't understand, if it is BDI, is why go to all the effort to cover it up yet do everything to keep it going in the public and media, down to John Ramsey even writing a new book in 2013. Patsy died in 2006 so she can't be blamed for John coming out with another book.

It makes no sense to me to cover up then keep pushing it for 17 years if you are protecting your son.

Thanks. And you made a good point. If Burke did it, you'd think they'd be as averse to drawing attention to it as possible - I mean, maybe they were just desperate for vindication, but it seems like it would just dredge up the family awkwardness all over again.

 

[ozazure]

Welcome to the Court of Public Opinion lawstudent!

BBM. What I don't understand, if it is BDI, is why go to all the effort to cover it up yet do everything to keep it going in the public and media, down to John Ramsey even writing a new book in 2013. Patsy died in 2006 so she can't be blamed for John coming out with another book.

It makes no sense to me to cover up then keep pushing it for 17 years if you are protecting your son.

I can imagine why - if a large part of the reason they lied to other people was in order to lie to themselves, it makes sense to pour effort into perpetuating the lie. In my opinion, if Burke was responsible, they were already well practised in denial of his problems and abuse. Well, that applies to any Ramsey actually. Living the lie was what they did before the murder, and so continued to do, only ramped up.

And minds are strange things, they can truly ponder on the "how and who" of the intruder because they truly do not know how and who and why an intruder did it, just keeping their minds off the fact that they actually know who it was.

 

[questfortrue]

I can imagine why - if a large part of the reason they lied to other people was in order to lie to themselves, it makes sense to pour effort into perpetuating the lie. In my opinion, if Burke was responsible, they were already well practised in denial of his problems and abuse. Well, that applies to any Ramsey actually. Living the lie was what they did before the murder, and so continued to do, only ramped up.

And minds are strange things, they can truly ponder on the "how and who" of the intruder because they truly do not know how and who and why an intruder did it, just keeping their minds off the fact that they actually know who it was.

Tying into your excellent post, it occurs to me to recall what friends who’ve been through intentional counseling and drug/alcohol rehab have said about lying to oneself. Initially, it’s just a small lie to others, like I only have but a glass of wine with a meal usually. But it is simply a statement that they are used to telling, and it’s not true. A female acquaintance (brilliant computer scientist) had depression, anxiety and a major issue with food. She was 5’5” and weighed 350 lbs. When the psychologist asked her why she was so overweight, she replied ‘truthfully’, “I don’t know. I don’t eat much, only ½ (one half) egg in the morning for breakfast.” Of course, not true. It’s a schism between what is done and what is told to oneself.

Won’t go into detail about JR’s lies, but many are likely aware that JR had some infidelity issues in his life. From TOSOS one of JR’s most “moving experiences” in healing was when he participated in a mission to India. He spoke of visiting a temple where young women are dedicated into prostitution in a “holy” ceremony. JR seems to share in his book, how abhorrent this practice is. Perhaps my reaction to his realization isn’t correct, but yet . . ..I was so struck by how much his acknowledgement, his take on inappropriate relations, reminded me of the alcoholic’s “I only have one glass of wine with dinner, or overweight dieter,” I only eat half an egg for breakfast.” JMHO.

 

[deca]

Why would the Ramsey's continue to "push" this story in the media?

Because it is expected. If you are an innocent, upper middle class, connected family you would push, push and push to keep your unsolved cold case "out there".
And if you aren't innocent...well, you want to seem innocent, don't you?

I would imagine that there would be a lot of talk amongst their people if they weren't pursuing the media.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Why would the Ramsey's continue to "push" this story in the media?

Because it is expected. If you are an innocent, upper middle class, connected family you would push, push and push to keep your unsolved cold case "out there".
And if you aren't innocent...well, you want to seem innocent, don't you?

I would imagine that there would be a lot of talk amongst their people if they weren't pursuing the media.

The R's were not just perpetrating the lie of an intruder in media and police interviews, but also in their everyday life for 17 years. It has probably become so "normal" to them to pretend to be this family whose daughter was killed by an intruder. So I feel like doing interviews about the case years later probably doesn't even phase John or Burke because it's what they are used to.

I really don't think John has pushed the case in the media, or has put much effort into publicizing it since Patsy's death. Most of the time when the case is back in the news, it's due to a new "development". How often do we hear about JonBenet again because John has started a new effort to find her killer? Never. He doesn't even have a website about the case. Even his book, was to talk about his ~struggle than it was to find JonBenet's killer...That's why in interviews, the focus was on being falsely accused...Did they even give the number of a tipline for people to call?

 

[dodie20]

The R's were not just perpetrating the lie of an intruder in media and police interviews, but also in their everyday life for 17 years. It has probably become so "normal" to them to pretend to be this family whose daughter was killed by an intruder. So I feel like doing interviews about the case years later probably doesn't even phase John or Burke because it's what they are used to.

I really don't think John has pushed the case in the media, or has put much effort into publicizing it since Patsy's death. Most of the time when the case is back in the news, it's due to a new "development". How often do we hear about JonBenet again because John has started a new effort to find her killer? Never. He doesn't even have a website about the case. Even his book, was to talk about his ~struggle than it was to find JonBenet's killer...That's why in interviews, the focus was on being falsely accused...Did they even give the number of a tipline for people to call?

And after it came out that the grand jury voted to indict, he had a few things to say, but it was mainly about the 'drama'.

 

[DeDee]

Those photos really are something else. It is hard to say with almost 2 decades past ... now they look like art to me to be frank. Very deliberate. Not many parents or grandparents who would pick such "moody" images. Sultry and solemn. Looks more 80s than 90s. I guess in the context, Patsy is an attractive woman who had probably regained her looks after treatment, money is no issue, the outfits and photoshoot something to occupy yourself with, it seems less out there ... but they are worlds away from most people aren't they?

RE the photo shoot that includes Nedra, Patsy does look nice. She had plastic surgery on her disappearing chin in the summer of '96, iirc.

Patsy was described by some who knew her as being overly dressed on many occasions as she is in these interesting photographs. Her expression in the photo with just her and her daughter shows strain or concern or sorrow. She almost has a furrowed brow.

Linda7NJ is correct about the vicious head bash. It was no accident. I read somewhere, or maybe Dr. Wecht mentioned it on the radio show, that the force used would knock out a 300 pound person. Wouldn't that fact eliminate BR?

I maintain the belief that PR planned the death of her daughter on Christmas. She intentionally staged the scene to implicate others to create doubt. The RN was written in advance, imho.

RE JARs suitcase with the children's book planted inside, the title was never released at the request of JAR. Apparently the Dr. Seuss book had been a gift and contained a personal inscription that he wanted to keep private. I respect him for that. FWIW, my daughter received two copies of "Oh, the Places You'll Go!" when she from graduated high school in 1994.

I do not believe JR knew about the sexual abuse bc PR was the one doing it. Perhaps that was discussed with JR in the walk about with the good doctor at the Fernie's on the 26th, thus the decision to hire the lawyers. Although his shirt fiber was found in the crotch of JBs panties, it could be that PR may have intentionally used his shirt to wipe JB in order to indicate his possible involvement.

These conclusions did not come easily for I do not want to believe the mother of Little Miss Christmas could be so cruel and heartless. In fact, I refused to believe it was anyone but an intruder until the past year when more time was available to study the case due to retirement.

BTW ~ I wish to salute all of you for your sleuthing abilities, thoughtful insights, and brilliant and enlightening posts.


jmho

 

[madeleine]

And after it came out that the grand jury voted to indict, he had a few things to say, but it was mainly about the 'drama'.

he tried to minimize it,like it's no big deal but I am sure he doesn't feel very good now knowing it might all explode (CB's lawsuit)

 

[otg]

FWIW... I remembered something, but haven’t mentioned it for a long time because I couldn’t remember where I had read it. But I ran across it just tonight while looking for some other information. In May of 2000, Steve Thomas did an online chat. That chat disappeared (as far as I know), but the host (Bill Bickel) reposted it early this year when news of the GJ true bill came out. I just found it.

Lots of good information in the first chat (from May 9, 2000) here, as well as this information:

BILL BICKEL: We’ve been told that the paperback will include several corrections. Anything of substance?

STEVE THOMAS: One item — page 44, a last minute mistake — ballbat with hair on it should read “golfclub with hair on it”, found outside on west side of house. ballbat found in north yard. other corrections are minor, grammar, etc A second notation in hypothesis includes fact that Patsy had alcohol to drink at White’s party that night.

His second chat (from November 14, 2000) is here. Lots of info in it too (911 call, Ramsey phone records, politics and battles with DA’s office).

 

[Linda7NJ]

FWIW... I remembered something, but haven’t mentioned it for a long time because I couldn’t remember where I had read it. But I ran across it just tonight while looking for some other information. In May of 2000, Steve Thomas did an online chat. That chat disappeared (as far as I know), but the host (Bill Bickel) reposted it early this year when news of the GJ true bill came out. I just found it.

Lots of good information in the first chat (from May 9, 2000) here, as well as this information:

His second chat (from November 14, 2000) is here. Lots of info in it too (911 call, Ramsey phone records, politics and battles with DA’s office).

Whoo hooo thank you! Off too read and oldie but goodie!


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[gramcracker]

from PMPT:

Linda Hoffman-Pugh: "Patsy started taking a painting class, and JonBenet drew a lot with crayons and markers. People and flowers. They had a big easel, but most of the time JonBenet painted on a card table in the butler's kitchen. Patsy had her paints and brushes in a white paint tote. Sometimes she asked me to take her paints down to the basement. "I don't want to see it."

that basement has always bugged me because it's such a contrast to the rest of the too too frou frou house. the glamour upstairs was on display for their social circle (and anyone who bought a home tour ticket) while the tacky, brokedown, cluttered, third-rate basement was hidden behind the scenes. there were coat racks in the butler's pantry when they hosted a par-tay. PR thought nothing of dropping $600 for a pageant outfit and she was paying JB's pageant tutor $20 per hour, which is fairly decent money today and was reallllly good money back then. their company had posted a billion in sales, and they had two planes and a second home. it's not like she couldn't afford to buy all kinds of shelving and bins and assign it to the housekeeper(s), or hire a specialist to organize it. that house was her domain and everything in it was a reflection of her inner landscape. I think the basement was the least of the issues she didn't want to see, deal with, or acknowledge. facade vs reality

 

[eileenhawkeye]

from PMPT:

that basement has always bugged me because it's such a contrast to the rest of the too too frou frou house. the glamour upstairs was on display for their social circle (and anyone who bought a home tour ticket) while the tacky, brokedown, cluttered, third-rate basement was hidden behind the scenes. there were coat racks in the butler's pantry when they hosted a par-tay. PR thought nothing of dropping $600 for a pageant outfit and she was paying JB's pageant tutor $20 per hour, which is fairly decent money today and was reallllly good money back then. their company had posted a billion in sales, and they had two planes and a second home. it's not like she couldn't afford to buy all kinds of shelving and bins and assign it to the housekeeper(s), or hire a specialist to organize it. that house was her domain and everything in it was a reflection of her inner landscape. I think the basement was the least of the issues she didn't want to see, deal with, or acknowledge. facade vs reality

Do you mean you're surprised the basement wasn't finished, or that an unfinished basement wasn't nicer?

 

[dodie20]

from PMPT:

that basement has always bugged me because it's such a contrast to the rest of the too too frou frou house. the glamour upstairs was on display for their social circle (and anyone who bought a home tour ticket) while the tacky, brokedown, cluttered, third-rate basement was hidden behind the scenes. there were coat racks in the butler's pantry when they hosted a par-tay. PR thought nothing of dropping $600 for a pageant outfit and she was paying JB's pageant tutor $20 per hour, which is fairly decent money today and was reallllly good money back then. their company had posted a billion in sales, and they had two planes and a second home. it's not like she couldn't afford to buy all kinds of shelving and bins and assign it to the housekeeper(s), or hire a specialist to organize it. that house was her domain and everything in it was a reflection of her inner landscape. I think the basement was the least of the issues she didn't want to see, deal with, or acknowledge. facade vs reality

kind of thinking out loud here, but you said 'that house was her domain and everything in it was a reflection of her inner landscape'...I agree but let's take this a step further and include that basement as part of PR's inner landscape. It was there, she could have had it remodeled at any time, so why didn't she? Was this basement a darker part of her inner landscape that she wanted to hold on to for some reason? It might have been a place she didn't like to venture down to too often, but there it was, waiting if needed. It was a place she saved for the things she didn't want to look at. Kind of ironic that that's were daughter wound up, isn't it? moo

 

[Linda7NJ]

from PMPT:

that basement has always bugged me because it's such a contrast to the rest of the too too frou frou house. the glamour upstairs was on display for their social circle (and anyone who bought a home tour ticket) while the tacky, brokedown, cluttered, third-rate basement was hidden behind the scenes. there were coat racks in the butler's pantry when they hosted a par-tay. PR thought nothing of dropping $600 for a pageant outfit and she was paying JB's pageant tutor $20 per hour, which is fairly decent money today and was reallllly good money back then. their company had posted a billion in sales, and they had two planes and a second home. it's not like she couldn't afford to buy all kinds of shelving and bins and assign it to the housekeeper(s), or hire a specialist to organize it. that house was her domain and everything in it was a reflection of her inner landscape. I think the basement was the least of the issues she didn't want to see, deal with, or acknowledge. facade vs reality

Well yeah, it was all about appearances.

JonBenet hadn't been bathed in days, Patsy was a slob around the house. Their entire lives were a facade. IMO


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[gramcracker]

Do you mean you're surprised the basement wasn't finished, or that an unfinished basement wasn't nicer?

both, and that it was junky, tacky, cluttered and disorganized

 

[SapphireSteel]

The house and the basement were a reflection of PR's persona.

Fancy and expensive on the surface, but cobwebbed, dirty, hidden and dark underneath.

 

[otg]

Their entire lives were a facade.

Are you confusing the word facade with feces? In which case it could be said you don't know the difference between *advertiser censored* and the side of a building.
:dance: