Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

DNA Solves
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DNA Solves

Who do you believe killed JonBenet?

  • Patsy

    Votes: 168 25.0%
  • John

    Votes: 44 6.6%
  • Burke

    Votes: 107 15.9%
  • an unknown intruder

    Votes: 86 12.8%
  • BR (head bash), then JR

    Votes: 4 0.6%
  • BR (head bash); then JR & PR (strangled/coverup)

    Votes: 113 16.8%
  • Knowing all I know, still on the fence.

    Votes: 55 8.2%
  • John, with an 'inside' accomplice

    Votes: 11 1.6%
  • I think John and Patsy caught him and he made her cover up

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • I still have no idea

    Votes: 57 8.5%
  • patsy and john helped cover it up

    Votes: 9 1.3%

  • Total voters
    671
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I've thought JBs death may have been premeditated. Unfortunately we will probably never know. An accidental blow to the head doesn't really make much sense where an adult is involved, and for several reasons, I don't believe it was Burke. I've wondered if she fell on something rather than being hit?

The garrotte is difficult to see as a response to an accident, either an accident that happened when JR or PR did something with/to her, or in a BDI theory.

What do you think?

If JR struck the blow to her head, and it was not a premeditated act, then it could have only been as a result of anger - almost a reactionary blow for something JB might have done (or not been willing to do) during attempted sexual contact. The type of blow to her head seems too severe to be able to be considered an accident - besides leaving a large hole, it cracked her skull open from back to front, nearly 8 inches long.

Premeditation would have only been necessary by JR if he was fearful JB was going to disclose information about him that would have caused him great ruin, both in his business and personal life. There have been several differing opinions why this might have been valid.

In my opinion, the ligature cord was applied as a control device prior to the head bash. I speculate there might have been an additional device used for strangulation in the end, but it was removed after death, leaving the ligature in place, with the handle applied as an afterthought to achieve the look of a garrote, which would have contributed to the sexual pervert attack aspect that was built into the staging as a means to cover up any signs of prior sexual abuse.

All my opinion only.
 
I said my abuser was a good person also. Many of us do. You bore the shame that comes with it, and kept your mouth shut. Being a nurse doesn't carry much weight with me. It's never been reported that she would have a reason to check out Jonbenet's private parts.

I guess some would do what the Ramsey's thought was a good idea. You'd do it to hide a brother sexually molesting his little sister, and possibly the one who cracked her skull open.

One of the Ramsey's made the decision to put a cord around their dying daughter neck and chock her to death. To finish her off. That is a fact.

Someone made the choice of not seeking any medical care that night for JonBenet. That is a fact. Why didn't they call for help? What did they have to hide if,as you theorize,she fell in the tub? You'd call for help as soon as she was found unconscious wouldn't you? To tell of an accident in the tub? You'd want to see if her life could be saved right?
I'm a mother and a grandmother and I know I'd sure as hell would call for help. Even if it meant others finding out about any abuse, especially sexual abuse. And if I found a sister and brother, in bed under the covers, they both would get a talking to and I'd be watching to see which one was the aggressor and deal with it.

JonBenet was starting to exhibit signs of sexual abuse. Some which Pasty, the main person to sexualize her,was starting to notice and was becoming concerned about. That is a fact. Pasty's own friends planned a talk about what was happening to JonBenet. They saw it was Pasty, and not JonBenet that wanted the glory from the pageants. They saw the progression in how Pasty was dressing her baby girl and they knew it was just plain wrong. They saw the haunted look in JonBenet's eyes along with the platinum blonde hair Pasty chose for her. They saw a little six year old girl being made to wear things a Las Vegas showgirl would wear. That is a fact.

There is evidence that some one was "fingering" JonBenet. It's noted as "digital penetration" not a penile intrusion. That is a fact, not a theory, any of us came up with.

The red fibers that were found on JonBenet and at the place of her death were from Pasty's red sweater that she wore Christmas day, and was still wearing that morning when LE got there. That is a fact.

The black fibers that were found in the crotch of the size twelve panties were from John Ramsey's black shirt that he'd worn that night. That is a fact. Pasty told LE that JonBenet herself, wanted the pack of panties that were for her older cousins Christmas present, and put them in her panty drawer. No others were found in that house, but they appeared several years later, just as John and Pasty's clothes did. That is a fact.

JonBenet was being molested. That is a fact.

She suffered a devastating head blow and was then chocked to death and placed in a dark womb like room, swaddled in her favorite white blanket. Those are facts, not opinions.

If you add all the facts together it that points to a family member. Not an opinion, but a fact. Something you can not get pass. It's the totality of the evidence released so far that we've come to these conclusions.

You only list one JonBenet Ramsey site as a source ,and to be fair to yourself and others, go read at aCandyrose and Forum for Justice for more current information about this case, since you want to stay away from people writing books and making money off this little girl. Something her parents have done many times over. And that is a fact.

Open you eyes and heart to the fact a little girl is dead before her time, and someone in that family caused her death.

ILikeToBendPages,
Excellent summary of the evidence. I note Chewy does not dispute any of your facts.

.
 
If JR struck the blow to her head, and it was not a premeditated act, then it could have only been as a result of anger - almost a reactionary blow for something JB might have done (or not been willing to do) during attempted sexual contact. The type of blow to her head seems too severe to be able to be considered an accident - besides leaving a large hole, it cracked her skull open from back to front, nearly 8 inches long.

Premeditation would have only been necessary by JR if he was fearful JB was going to disclose information about him that would have caused him great ruin, both in his business and personal life. There have been several differing opinions why this might have been valid.

In my opinion, the ligature cord was applied as a control device prior to the head bash. I speculate there might have been an additional device used for strangulation in the end, but it was removed after death, leaving the ligature in place, with the handle applied as an afterthought to achieve the look of a garrote, which would have contributed to the sexual pervert attack aspect that was built into the staging as a means to cover up any signs of prior sexual abuse.

All my opinion only.

midwest mama,
I agree, without further evidence it looks to me as if someone enraged at JonBenet's refusal to comply with abusive demands, simply physically attacked her, raining blows on her with what ever came to hand.

Possibly holding her either manually or by a ligature then whacking her on the head as the struggle showed no sign of resolve.

.
 
If JR struck the blow to her head, and it was not a premeditated act, then it could have only been as a result of anger - almost a reactionary blow for something JB might have done (or not been willing to do) during attempted sexual contact. The type of blow to her head seems too severe to be able to be considered an accident - besides leaving a large hole, it cracked her skull open from back to front, nearly 8 inches long.

Premeditation would have only been necessary by JR if he was fearful JB was going to disclose information about him that would have caused him great ruin, both in his business and personal life. There have been several differing opinions why this might have been valid.

In my opinion, the ligature cord was applied as a control device prior to the head bash. I speculate there might have been an additional device used for strangulation in the end, but it was removed after death, leaving the ligature in place, with the handle applied as an afterthought to achieve the look of a garrote, which would have contributed to the sexual pervert attack aspect that was built into the staging as a means to cover up any signs of prior sexual abuse.

All my opinion only.

This is why I usually stay away from trying to figure out if it's premeditated or not. It's hard not to speculate on it, but it's impossible to prove anything.

It's difficult to see a golf club used in split second reaction to some stimulus. Clubs are kept with the head sticking up, meaning the club has to be pulled out of the bag, then turned around and grasped by the shaft. It doesn't take a lot of time, but it requires taking some attention away from JB and paying attention to positioning the club in the hand. If it was done in momentary rage that makes the flashlight more likely?

I've always had trouble with the idea that JR killed her to silence her about prior abuse. (or was it something else?) I think he'd figure he could talk her out of it, and even if not, as far as we can determine there was only digital penetration. Is murder really a likely response to having that found out? He might be in hot water with PR, but are his business associates/clients really going to find out about it? I don't really see a 6 year old girl threatening to tell all anyway.


There is nothing wrong with your theory that the ligature was a control device. Nothing wrong in the sense that the evidence doesn't preclude it. But there is no real reason it had to be so. No real reason why it's more likely than not. We don't know when the ligature was applied.

We do know that the knot was so tight that it had to be cut at the autopsy. It did not slack when released. This means, as it was found by the coroner, it was not adjustable, except to make it ever tighter. Therefore, it's not very effective as a control device.
 
I'm the only one thus far in this conversation that has posted actual facts. In fact the link I posted has both sides of the argument.

And I would not say that parents can't be cruel to their children. I'm the last person in the world that would say that having been raised by someone whose personality was that of Charles Manson and Sybil's mother.

I'm saying there are all sorts of wonky suspicions being stated with no evidence to back it up. I'm not talking about how it "seems" I'm worried about what the evidence shows.

People do this all the time. The facts. The evidence. That is what I'm interested in.
I've heard three or four different theories thus far and no one has explained why the idea of an intruder COULD NOT happen. I'm not saying it did happen just that it seems more logical than all these melodramatic movie of the week stories involving Munchausen by Proxy, Satanic Rituals, Incest, Secret plots to get people to leave the house (after which JR told PR to call the police and invited a bunch of people to the house)

Lots of "started off' theories that once you get to the point of proof people jump on to the next one.

Me too. :waitasec:

Can you please point out what evidence supports IDI because I didn't think there was any.

TIA.
 
ILikeToBendPages,
Excellent summary of the evidence. I note Chewy does not dispute any of your facts.

.

Chewy doesn't engage in a supposedly logical debate that starts off expressing anguish about a person's own sexual assault as a child and makes the statement that

One of the Ramsey's made the decision to put a cord around their dying daughter neck and chock her to death. To finish her off. That is a fact.

That is not a fact. That is a person projecting their own mental anguish and sexual abuse onto an entirely different and unrelated situation and feeling justified because they are a victim.

I do not take lightly to accusing parents of sexual assault based on suspicion and not evidence.

I have no problem with people doubting the intruder theory. I do take issue with people projecting their own issues onto others who may be innocent and doing so without any evidence to support their position.

To recap

Neither the autopsy report nor Jon Benet Ramsey's pediatrician state any evidence to support the accusation of sexual abuse beyond the evening she was killed.

All other statements are based on suspicion and gossip and personal vendettas unrelated to JBR.
 
Chewy doesn't engage in a supposedly logical debate that starts off expressing anguish about a person's own sexual assault as a child and makes the statement that



That is not a fact. That is a person projecting their own mental anguish and sexual abuse onto an entirely different and unrelated situation and feeling justified because they are a victim.

I do not take lightly to accusing parents of sexual assault based on suspicion and not evidence.

I have no problem with people doubting the intruder theory. I do take issue with people projecting their own issues onto others who may be innocent and doing so without any evidence to support their position.

To recap

Neither the autopsy report nor Jon Benet Ramsey's pediatrician state any evidence to support the accusation of sexual abuse beyond the evening she was killed.

All other statements are based on suspicion and gossip and personal vendettas unrelated to JBR.


Again, I appreciate how important evidence is.

There is evidence in this case, and it all indicates RDI.

Do you have evidence that indicates IDI?
 
No it doesn't. If "all the evidence" in this case indicated such they would have been arrested.

And it's disgusting to watch people go so far as to accuse a father of jamming items up their dead daughters' vagina because people never got enough therapy for their own issues.


Can anyone even imagine what it must be like to have these kinds of accusations leveled at you when you are completely innocent?

How that must feel? It's repulsive. I'm out of this thread before I get banned.


And to recap once again since it's being ignored. NEITHER THE AUTOPSY REPORT OR THE PEDIATRICIAN STATED THAT THERE WAS EVIDENCE OF PROLONGED SEXUAL ABUSE.

Sorry. Please tell me what IDI evidence you have?
 
I have read much on this case, and still cannot with any certainty say who was responsible for JonBenet's death. I voted John, and my reasoning is based on statement analysis that I've read regarding early interviews of both parents. John was determined to be extremely deceptive, as was Patsy. John was the first to "discover" the body and seemed to know exactly where it was. If I were to initiate a search of my home for my child I would start where they were last seen....not in the basement. There was evidence of sexual abuse of this child (cronic urinary infections, scarring etc.), that IMO rules out the mother and the pre-adolescent brother. Either the father was sexually abusing this little girl or he was pimping her out. That's my opinion only.

I've read many theories on what happened in that home, including one that surmised that her brother killed her while recreating a sexual "asphyxiation" that she had experienced before (that one was disturbing). Maybe we'll never know for sure what happened, but I would bet my bottom dollar the parents knew. Patsy took it to her grave...John will probably never tell. Burke knows something, but will he ever say what? LE wanted to re-interview him not long ago, but he wouldn't consent. His voice was heard on the 911 tape even though Patsy claimed he was asleep.

A sad case that might never have an explanation.
 
Wasn't Chewy taking the IDI position?

I must admit I'm thoroughly confused at exactly what he/she was driving at.

I thought Chewy was strictly IDI, everyone who thought RDI was nuts and had no evidence except their own dirty minds, yet Chewy produced absolutely nothing to substantiate his/her own view, nor anything that would show the RDI's amongst us the error of our ways.


:dunno:

I took it that Chewy was IDI or at least a Ramsey Family Defender (that's RFD). Chewy referred us to a definition of mens rea so he/she must be saying the Ramsey responsible must have done it accidentally since he/she told us (in so many words) that the requirement for mens rea could not be met. Or maybe Chewy was just letting off steam.

I don't think Chewy met the requirement for leading me to reasonable doubt.

Isn't bias a diagonal cut seamstresses make on fabric. :waitasec:
 
I'll try to make this short.

The pediatrician never reported any abuse because he never looked for any,. He admitted he never did an internal exam. He was also NOT present at the autopsy. These three statements are facts.

The CORONER noted an eroded hymen and the autopsy photos revealed a much larger vaginal opening than should have been found in a child that age. These two statements are facts.

NEITHER of these conditions can occur from ONE incident. THAT is prior abuse. It need not have been a parent. But it WAS someone in that house. It was someone with regular, repeated, private access to JB.
 
This is a really good analysis of the JonBenet case. I have a hard time swallowing that it was Burke Ramsey that did this, only because he wasn't even ten years old, but it would explain a lot of things. IDK really what to believe with this one. All I believe for sure is that the parents knew EXACTLY what happened to this little girl. And nobody will ever tell....kind of like the Anthonys and their family secrets no?

http://crimeshots.com/JBMorning.html
 
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Crime solving 101.

What I have asked thus far and it not been answered (and please stop using bias when pretending to talk about confirmation bias, they are two entirely different things)

What REASON what MOTIVE do you have that evidence supports for the Ramsey's doing this?

Follow it all the way through with EVIDENCE Not suspicion and made up mumbo jumbo and emotional projection, but actual evidence.

What motive and where is the evidence to support that motive?


If your argument is that the Ramseys are psycopaths, great so what evidence do you have?

Was it a sex game perversion OK what evidence do you have?

Was it an accident that was covered up? Ok what evidence do you have?

What you all have is a bag of miss matched bits of evidence that halfway support any number of accusations but never entirely support one whole.

And that's good enough for people working with confirmation bias.


It's not good enough for me. Or have you forgotten how the court systems in this country work? Innocent until proven guilty.

That's why they have never been arrested.

We can all go on forever as forum participants with what each of us considers his/her reason and motive for the R's committing this crime. None of our opinions matter to LE, and since they are the ones who must bring forth a prosecution of this crime, we really should just defer to them to provide the REASON AND MOTIVE if an arrest is made.

Here is some interesting copy from PMPT, pg 475 following the information about the police accepting pro bono legal help while working on the case as the relationship with the DA's office had become compromised: "It was a relief to the police to have their own attorneys. Like Caplis, these attorneys had no agenda of their own. The police could now get an objective opinion about whether they had a case against the Ramseys or should move on. The FBI had told the detectives that they had enough evidence for probable cause, but now Eller, Like Hunter, wanted to know if they had enough to convict beyond a reasonable doubt."

Doesn't this indicate that LE, even if they might not have known the real REASON AND MOTIVE at that point in time, knew there was enough evidence to consider the Ramseys could be charged?

And doesn't it also point out that Hunter, with even the slightest bit of challenge in front of him, would not have pursued a prosecution unless the grand jury would have handed him the R's on a silver platter? He had LE in his corner with evidence, and yet his own fear of failure in the courtroom was the downfall of any hope of justice for JB.

There was/is enough evidence in the hands of LE to deem the Ramseys culpable. There should have been an arrest. The FBI knew it, the detectives knew it, and believe it or not, even the Ramsey lawyers expected it - according to this from PMPT, pg 485: "In fact, the Ramseys' attorneys had, from the very beginning, treated their clients as if they were guilty."

One man had the ability to put this case in the tank, and that is exactly what happened. Sad, so so sad.

Now, here is something else from PMPT, pg 486: "Under Colorado law, any citizen can challenge the decision of the District Attorney in a particular case by filing a motion to compel prosecution." Would this mean that this could be done in the JBR case, since the DA declined to call for an indictment? Has too much time gone by?
 
I believe it's always a warning sign that someone's "bringing the crazy" when they refer to themselves in the third person.
 
This is a really good analysis of the JonBenet case. I have a hard time swallowing that it was Burke Ramsey that did this, only because he wasn't even ten years old, but it would explain a lot of things. IDK really what to believe with this one. All I believe for sure is that the parents knew EXACTLY what happened to this little girl. And nobody will ever tell....kind of like the Anthonys and their family secrets no?

http://crimeshots.com/JBMorning.html

:Welcome1::greetings: PrincessSezMe

I agree - both of these cases are full of unexposed secrets that stay enclosed in the hearts and minds of those who must have very little sense of conscience. A true mark of a very damaged soul. Unless they one day find a path toward true repentance, we can trust that their final judgment will bring some justice to the deaths of JB and Caylee.
 
Some would say (me) karma's already got one of the offenders.

The other one must be feeling very nervous indeed, if he is in fact as "Christian" as he pretends to be.
 
Midwest Mama - Thank you for the warm welcome - much appreciated. I've pondered this case for many years now, and have come to the conclusion that it was a cover up from day one. They know what happened to their daughter but they're not saying. I can't say who was responsible (only they know), but I can say with a fair amount of conviction that there was a cover up, and that the parents are complicit in that. JMHO.

Thanks again for welcoming me to the forum! I love Websleuths! It rocks! :rocker:
 
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