Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[eileenhawkeye]

If Burke had nothing to do with JBR's murder, but know his parents do, I could see him not talking to LE. I don't see how there's any way BR refusing to speak to LE could mean there's an intruder, but I don't think it automatically means BDI.

 

[OpenMind4U]

If Burke had nothing to do with JBR's murder, but know his parents do, I could see him not talking to LE. I don't see how there's any way BR refusing to speak to LE could mean there's an intruder, but I don't think it automatically means BDI.

Agree on this. I never said that BR's refusal to speak-out 'automatically' means BDI. However, today, after so many years, when PR is death and JR has new life/new wife...why keep silence? To protect whom?!...His father? His mother's name?...what about the memory and innocence of HIS SISTER???!!! Looks like BR is still 'attached' to Ramsey's money, lawyering, 'other side of suffering' so to speak....IMO, he's NOT the grown-up MAN yet....and not until he'll stands-up to any accusation and/or BDI theory - he'll still the little boy with the 'effect' and poops in his pants...

jmo

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Agree on this. I never said that BR's refusal to speak-out 'automatically' means BDI. However, today, after so many years, when PR is death and JR has new life/new wife...why keep silence? To protect whom?!...His father? His mother's name?...what about the memory and innocence of HIS SISTER???!!! Looks like BR is still 'attached' to Ramsey's money, lawyering, 'other side of suffering' so to speak....IMO, he's NOT the grown-up MAN yet....and not until he'll stands-up to any accusation and/or BDI theory - he'll still the little boy with the 'effect' and poops in his pants...

jmo

He probably has a bigger connection to his parents, than to his sister. He's not going to "betray" his mother by telling the entire country that she killed his sister, and his father by saying how he helped with the coverup.

ETA: Also, he may tell himself to try to justify it: "It was an accident. It wasn't supposed to happen. My parents never abused me. They were great parents. They just made a mistake" etc

 

[SapphireSteel]

He probably has a bigger connection to his parents, than to his sister. He's not going to "betray" his mother by telling the entire country that she killed his sister, and his father by saying how he helped with the coverup.

ETA: Also, he may tell himself to try to justify it: "It was an accident. It wasn't supposed to happen. My parents never abused me. They were great parents. They just made a mistake" etc

Agree 100%.

Some people look at his affect at the funeral and in therapy and go "sister murderer".

:waitasec:

I look at his affect as a coping mechanism.

One traumatised little boy, coming a distant third to his mother's hysterics and his sister's tragic death, likely at the hands of those parents, who he was still living with.

It makes complete sense that Burke's reaction would be denial.

The poor kid just shut down...so profoundly and effectively that he likely remains in denial to this day.

I was abused as a child and cannot remember one single incident, just a lot of fragments. Your brain blanks it out to protect you. It is genuine, profound memory loss. I will bet my house that is how Burke coped.

:cow:

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't get the sense that BR was abused. He may have had a whacko mother who was hell-bent on fame for his sister, and he may have had a father who was not around as much as he would have wanted, but I have seen nothing that makes me feel he was abused, sexually or otherwise.
On the other had, there is physical PROOF JB suffered abuse, both the night she died and on at least one other occasion.
Being an "odd" kid (which by some accounts he was), having Asberger's Syndrome (which some feel he did/does) and having an overbearing mother and grandmother doesn't make you a killer.
Having a bad temper, lashing out in anger in an irrevocable burst of rage COULD make you a killer. Not a career criminal, but someone who was responsible for the death of a sibling in what was an escalating cascade of events that began with sexual exploration and painful penetration, followed by a silencing bash on the head. Mom and Dad clean it up. That pretty much spells it out for me.

 

[SapphireSteel]

:goodpost:

+1

 

[Zephyr]

Steve Thomas wrote in his book that the Hi-Tec print could also have been left at the crime scene by a police officer (Kolar in his book says that FBI Ron Walker had in fact worn Hi-Tecs).

But one thing I have never understood about the Hi-Tec boot print:
Even if it was only a partial print: wouldn't it have been fairly easy to tell if the print was from a shoe size fitting a nine-year-old as opposed to an adult shoe size??

It's possible that Steve Thomas may have just been trying to get across the point that the shoe was big enough to fit an adult. An adult with small feet. Maybe Patsy.

JMO

 

[DeeDee249]

Don't be fooled by a boy's age. BR was 2 weeks shy of 10. Some boys that age have adult size feet. My nephew wore a mens' size 11 at 12 years old. It is possible that BR could have worn a mens' size- especially a smaller size like an 8 or 9.
My daughter wore a ladies size 5 shoe at 10 years old.

 

[azwriter]

Don't be fooled by a boy's age. BR was 2 weeks shy of 10. Some boys that age have adult size feet. My nephew wore a mens' size 11 at 12 years old. It is possible that BR could have worn a mens' size- especially a smaller size like an 8 or 9.
My daughter wore a ladies size 5 shoe at 10 years old.

Thanks for pointing out a possible shoe size for Burke. He was not a tiny boy. I always go back to that photo of him and Jonbenet with Patsy's folks in the Death of Innocence book they penned. The photo on page 178, which the cutline says was shot in Dec. 1996, clearly shows how much taller he was than his sister and how he ranges in size to his grandfather the man he is standing next to.

I've got a grandson who wore an adult size 10 at age 11. Seems boys feet grow at an alarming rate. Which means Burke could in reality worn a size 8, 9 or even 10.

just my O

 

[PrincessSezMe]

I don't get the sense that BR was abused. He may have had a whacko mother who was hell-bent on fame for his sister, and he may have had a father who was not around as much as he would have wanted, but I have seen nothing that makes me feel he was abused, sexually or otherwise.
On the other had, there is physical PROOF JB suffered abuse, both the night she died and on at least one other occasion.
Being an "odd" kid (which by some accounts he was), having Asberger's Syndrome (which some feel he did/does) and having an overbearing mother and grandmother doesn't make you a killer.
Having a bad temper, lashing out in anger in an irrevocable burst of rage COULD make you a killer. Not a career criminal, but someone who was responsible for the death of a sibling in what was an escalating cascade of events that began with sexual exploration and painful penetration, followed by a silencing bash on the head. Mom and Dad clean it up. That pretty much spells it out for me.

DeeDee

I agree with what you're saying, but I keep going back to the fact that LE never considered BR a suspect in any way once they completed their investigation of him. And, others have pointed out here (and I agree), that LE would not have spent all of these years and man-hours investigating this murder if they had any evidence of any kind that it was a nine year old kid who was ultimately responsible.

You say there is no proof BR was abused, but I see all kinds of red flags that he was abused in some way. Bed wetting, smearing his own waste on the walls, these are common signs of some form of abuse...whether it's sexual or not (maybe it was emotional abuse...or neglect).

I will never quite believe, absent a confession, that BR was responsible for the death of JonBenet. The circumstances of her death, along with the staging, are adult in nature IMO. I have a really hard time visualizing either BR or PR sexually molesting JonBenet. However, to me, JR is creepy. PR was absolutely a player in the cover up, but I still truly believe JR is the principal in this crime. It's a gut feeling I get when I watch him on camera.

Absent any real evidence against anyone in particular, I tend to lean towards what logic tells me. And logic in this case tells me that there are fathers that molest their daughters. And that sometimes that results in that child ending up hurt.....or dead.

One last thought for you to consider. One of JonBenet's teachers said that JB became very clingy with her mother shortly before she died, which was out of character for her. What was going on that made that so? If she was so frightened of her mother, why would she cling to her?

I can't see JB covering for BR if he was responsible for the prior/ongoing abuse, but I can definitely see her covering up for daddy. Think about your relationship with your father at JB's age. I would have gone to the ends of the earth and back for my dad, but I wouldn't have walked across the street for my older brother.

I try to put this in perspective based on my own life experience. It's all my opinion only.

 

[madeleine]

Great post as usual Dee Dee. Maybe because I am so strong on my belief that it was Burke who is the guilty party. And I do believe that Patsy had been covering for her son's behavior for a long time. And any imperfections her daughter may have had too. Outward appearances were everything to Patsy Ramsey. She liked to show off the family's wealth, her attemp at Miss America and all her pageant history as well as JonBenet's success in her pageants. She loved all the glory and that is one thing that convinces me that she would risk everything to cover for her family. She could absolutely not be the mother of a child who did a crime like this, even if it first started as an accident or that his young age would keep him from being charged.

But, as for Burke leaving the home the morning of the crime, I am beginning to believe that perhaps John had let Fleet White in on some of what had happened Christmas night. He could have appealed to White to help keep Burke from being questioned and in turn told White he was going to talk with LE and straighten everything out on how Burke was involved. They maybe had a pact. But instead, John went the other way and covered up the truth. That might account for the anger Fleet showed toward John later. And, with the laws protecting Burke because of his age, whatever Fleet had to tell LE wouldn't matter legally. Which would only frustrate and anger Fleet more.
It does not surprise me that the Ramsey parents would work to get Burke out of the house, away from LE and the discovery of the body.

Keep up the great posts Dee Dee.

It's obvious that FW knew/suspected something,if it would have been about PR or JR killing JB I guess he would have done more,even if what he knew wasn't the piece of the puzzle to break the case and lead to charges.I mean,he wouldn't been able to sleep at night IMO if for example he knew that PR assaulted JB with a paintbrush or JR strangled her.
But BDI explains his behavior,like it explains the Ramsey's behavior IMO.If it's about the little boy killing his sister,then yes,he maybe doesn't agree with the parents staging/cover-up/lies but he doesn't wanna ruin the boy's life/future.
Re BR being sent to the Whites-IMO,I'd rather have him slip something in front of a friend (who I might manipulate and convince later) rather then in front of the COPS.

 

[madeleine]

Ridiculous. He was a boy with problems. He may now be a young man with problems. But THAT night something terrible happened and JB was killed, and it was probably unintentional. But because what occurred BEFORE that happened was horrible and needed to be kept forever secret, we have what we have now- a coverup of intentional abuse, fatal injury.
And what is "rapiness"?

I will never forget what he told the therapist,that once you tell a secret it's no longer a secret,it bugs me.Who taught him that (well done) and why.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee

I agree with what you're saying, but I keep going back to the fact that LE never considered BR a suspect in any way once they completed their investigation of him. And, others have pointed out here (and I agree), that LE would not have spent all of these years and man-hours investigating this murder if they had any evidence of any kind that it was a nine year old kid who was ultimately responsible.

You say there is no proof BR was abused, but I see all kinds of red flags that he was abused in some way. Bed wetting, smearing his own waste on the walls, these are common signs of some form of abuse...whether it's sexual or not (maybe it was emotional abuse...or neglect).

I will never quite believe, absent a confession, that BR was responsible for the death of JonBenet. The circumstances of her death, along with the staging, are adult in nature IMO. I have a really hard time visualizing either BR or PR sexually molesting JonBenet. However, to me, JR is creepy. PR was absolutely a player in the cover up, but I still truly believe JR is the principal in this crime. It's a gut feeling I get when I watch him on camera.

Absent any real evidence against anyone in particular, I tend to lean towards what logic tells me. And logic in this case tells me that there are fathers that molest their daughters. And that sometimes that results in that child ending up hurt.....or dead.

One last thought for you to consider. One of JonBenet's teachers said that JB became very clingy with her mother shortly before she died, which was out of character for her. What was going on that made that so? If she was so frightened of her mother, why would she cling to her?

I can't see JB covering for BR if he was responsible for the prior/ongoing abuse, but I can definitely see her covering up for daddy. Think about your relationship with your father at JB's age. I would have gone to the ends of the earth and back for my dad, but I wouldn't have walked across the street for my older brother.

I try to put this in perspective based on my own life experience. It's all my opinion only.

Actually, LE DID consider BR a suspect. But they were not allowed to actually indict, arrest, or even name him as a suspect because of his age, nor could they publicly identify him as a suspect. because of his age. So that door was closed to them early on.
Among the things the R defense team "asked" the DA to do was publicly state he was never a suspect. The defense team prepared a written statement and asked AH to sign it. AH refused to sign the statement the way it was worded, but did sign it after some wording was changed. So basically, AH never had to say publicly that BR was never considered as a suspect at any time, he just had to say that he was not a suspect.
I see your point about the behaviors BR was exhibiting. They are not always a sign of sexual or physical abuse, but are certainly signs of a disturbed child. They can also indicate someone angry enough to BE an abuser, especially to a younger, weaker person. It is interesting to note that Kolar mentions in his book that the Rs insisted on an "island of privacy" for BR's medical records (which the spineless DA allowed). There HAS to be something disturbing in there- no one cars about when he had his measles vaccine or how many times he had strep throat. What WOULD impact this case and his involvement in it was whether he had been questioned on abusing his sister, hypersexual behavior (this would include masturbation, which 100% of boys engage in (sorry moms) but also an extreme interest in seeing females in the house in states of undress, bathing, using the toilet, etc. Kid are naturally curious about their siblings of the opposite sex, but there is a point at which it becomes more than that.
And I have to disagree- I can definitely see Patsy covering for her son as far as prior abuse, absolutely. Even now, that would hang over his head as an adult were it known.
Was he emotionally abused? Yes, I'd say. Even if the abusers were unaware if it, and even if HE was unaware of it.

 

[BOESP]

Possibly Burke had some personal health issues unrelated to JonBenet's death that, if made public, could have embarrassed him. I can't see sealing medical records as an indicator of Burke's guilt. To me, it's 50/50 on his health records.

To me if Patsy did it and John Q. Public insisted on blaming my son I would react like she did. I just could not let him be ridiculed for my actions. On the other hand, I believe she did not want to go to prison or be held accountable in the public eye (if she, indeed, was guilty). So no one was allowed "to go there, pal."

I can't see Steve Thomas trying to publicly goad Patsy into admitting Burke did it and I think he would have known if Burke was the best suspect. Maybe he's changed his mind by now but we will never know that either.

Burke may have been involved in JonBenet's death but based on what has been put in the public domain I think there is more than reasonable doubt.

Patsy wrote the note. Patsy didn't want to die in prison (in my opinion).

 

[PrincessSezMe]

Possibly Burke had some personal health issues unrelated to JonBenet's death that, if made public, could have embarrassed him. I can't see sealing medical records as an indicator of Burke's guilt. To me, it's 50/50 on his health records.

To me if Patsy did it and John Q. Public insisted on blaming my son I would react like she did. I just could not let him be ridiculed for my actions. On the other hand, I believe she did not want to go to prison or be held accountable in the public eye (if she, indeed, was guilty). So no one was allowed "to go there, pal."

I can't see Steve Thomas trying to publicly goad Patsy into admitting Burke did it and I think he would have known if Burke was the best suspect. Maybe he's changed his mind by now but we will never know that either.

Burke may have been involved in JonBenet's death but based on what has been put in the public domain I think there is more than reasonable doubt.

Patsy wrote the note. Patsy didn't want to die in prison (in my opinion).

Good point. I never considered the possibility that PR didn't want to die in prison. That could have been something JR considered when they collaborated in the staging.

I would like to know where the information came from that LE was not "allowed" to name BR as a suspect due to his age. Was that from Kolar's book? From what I've read Boulder authorities cleared him as a suspect after his Grand Jury testimony, claiming he was only a "witness". The DA's office was IMO pretty pro-Ramsey, but the BPD clearly felt otherwise. I don't see them clearing BR if they had any evidence to the contrary.

Like you, I also don't see that his medical records being sealed points in any way to his guilt. Maybe there was something in those records that the parents didn't want known. Perhaps some telltale signs of abuse?

If BR was guilty in any way, why is he heard in the 911 call saying "but what DID you find?". If he were responsible, he would have known what they found. I think the parents simply didn't want him involved in any way. He likely knew details about their movements that night that would have contradicted their stories, so they claimed he was sleeping to try and deflect any attention away from him. MOO.

 

[DeeDee249]

LE was "not allowed" because BR of Colorado law. In Colorado, no one under the age of 10 can even be accused of a crime. They cannot be arrested, indicted, named a suspect or accused or associated in ANY way with ANY crime. And it doesn't matter how serious the crime is.

While the law may be different now (though I don't think so, Colorado is crazy liberal) in 1996 that is the way it was, so BR is protected for the rest of his life.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

LE was "not allowed" because BR of Colorado law. In Colorado, no one under the age of 10 can even be accused of a crime. They cannot be arrested, indicted, named a suspect or accused or associated in ANY way with ANY crime. And it doesn't matter how serious the crime is.

While the law may be different now (though I don't think so, Colorado is crazy liberal) in 1996 that is the way it was, so BR is protected for the rest of his life.

Hey DeeDee

If that was the case though, that it wasn't allowed nor necessary, why did both the BPD and DA make a point of issuing statements clearing BR as a suspect? How could Beckner be forced into making that statement if it wasn't determined by the evidence from their investigation and the Grand Jury findings? Are you thinking that the Ramsey defense team forced those statements? If you have a link to info on that, I would be interested in it.

I'm not arguing that BR could ever have been prosecuted for the crime, so agree he would be protected for life, given his age. What I'm getting at is that there was little to be gained by LE spending years investigating the parents if there was any evidence that BR was the guilty party. The best they could hope for, if BR was responsible, was to prosecute the parents as accessories after the fact. I personally don't think any evidence of BR's involvement ever existed. The evidence they did have told LE that one of the parents was the guilty party and, based on the ransom note, they determined that guilty party was Patsy Ramsey. Personally I think they discounted John Ramsey's involvement, (based on the note alone), in error. I do not believe he just blindly went along with the cover up without being the least bit involved in the crime.

I speculate that the sexual nature of the cover up, and the staging of abuse, was intended to cover up the prior abuse. Whoever did that knew that things would be found out through the autopsy, and they tried to cover it up as a one-time thing that was part of the attack by an outside intruder. MOO.

 

[BOESP]

Good point. I never considered the possibility that PR didn't want to die in prison. That could have been something JR considered when they collaborated in the staging.

I would like to know where the information came from that LE was not "allowed" to name BR as a suspect due to his age. Was that from Kolar's book? From what I've read Boulder authorities cleared him as a suspect after his Grand Jury testimony, claiming he was only a "witness". The DA's office was IMO pretty pro-Ramsey, but the BPD clearly felt otherwise. I don't see them clearing BR if they had any evidence to the contrary.

Like you, I also don't see that his medical records being sealed points in any way to his guilt. Maybe there was something in those records that the parents didn't want known. Perhaps some telltale signs of abuse?

If BR was guilty in any way, why is he heard in the 911 call saying "but what DID you find?". If he were responsible, he would have known what they found. I think the parents simply didn't want him involved in any way. He likely knew details about their movements that night that would have contradicted their stories, so they claimed he was sleeping to try and deflect any attention away from him. MOO.

Good points.

I don't know much about Colorado law. I first remember reading here about how Burke could never be charged. I can't remember who introduced that information.

Your last sentence above (emphasis added by me) also is my suspicion.

I also speculate that since Patsy is dead there's not much use in a hot pursuit into this case and spending more Boulder dollars. I also think Patsy being the guilty party plus being dead would explain why John Ramsey feels comfortable enough to write another book on the subject. Smart, guilty people let sleeping dogs lie. Innocent people have no reason to do that. I also can't see him keeping this story in the public eye if his son was guilty. Some may think he used reverse psychology but in my view he knows the killer is dead.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Good points.

I don't know much about Colorado law. I first remember reading here about how Burke could never be charged. I can't remember who introduced that information.

Your last sentence above (emphasis added by me) also is my suspicion.

I also speculate that since Patsy is dead there's not much use in a hot pursuit into this case and spending more Boulder dollars. I also think Patsy being the guilty party plus being dead would explain why John Ramsey feels comfortable enough to write another book on the subject. Smart, guilty people let sleeping dogs lie. Innocent people have no reason to do that. I also can't see him keeping this story in the public eye if his son was guilty. Some may think he used reverse psychology but in my view he knows the killer is dead.

On the other hand, narcissists can't shut up and are so sure of their own infallibility and superiority, they fear no one.

:sick:

 

[BOESP]

On the other hand, narcissists can't shut up and are so sure of their own infallibility and superiority, they fear no one.

:sick:

I think we are back to the cross-fingerpointing defense from a psychological viewpoint.

I still can't see him doing something to knowingly subject his son to scrutiny.