Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[DeeDee249]

Her book deal had nothing to do with LHP changing her feelings about Patsy. Her feelings about Patsy changed when she realized the Rs were trying to pin this on her.
Patsy was known to have a bad temper. Her meds didn't help. She almost assuredly drank wine that night at the White's. She was taking antidepressants. They were found in the house. And possibly over-the-counter sleep aids. I think we've all see the warnings on drugs like that. Aggressive behavior, thoughts of suicide, violent outbursts...

 

[SapphireSteel]

did you click the link in that post? here it is:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,418904,00.html


(and no, i've never seen any proof that BDI but isn't that what we do here... speculate based on the available evidence, experience, etc?)

i'm not going to beat a dead horse... if others don't want to extrapolate (is that the correct word? lol) from this link that it's possible for other children (BR) to seriously injure another child with a golf club, then so be it... :moo:

The injuries I am referring to are the bruises on her legs and vagina, not the head injury.

Jonbenet struggled. The assault hurt, she resisted, and was forced.

Burke was not physically capable of holding down a struggling six year old, who no doubt would be screaming at the top of her lungs as well and maybe (hopefully) biting too.

Of course, my opinion only. They might breed skinny little 9 year olds differently where the BDI's live.

:dunno:

:cow:

 

[dodie20]

redheadedgal

These things do happen. Maybe BR did smack JB over the head and started the whole thing. Anything is possible. The question to me remains though, why did the parents cover up for something that would never have resulted in a prosecution anyway? And how could they possibly strangle their own daughter to death and live with that? Even trying to rationalize that they did it to save their other child doesn't wash with me. BR was nine years old - he would not have been brought up on any charges. That's why I don't think BR was involved. I believe the parents were motivated by the possibility of one or both of them going to prison for this. I don't know for sure who did what, but that's one thing I believe above all else. The threat of prison time necessited a cover up, it wasn't done to save Burke's backside IMO.

The only thing that makes any sense to me as a motivator for such a brutal crime is a sexual attack followed by an assault/murder. Why else was JB wiped down? To hide what? The area of her body that was cleaned should tell us all we need to know don't you think? Why would they clean JB up like that, but leave the urine stained panties and longjohns on her? She had bruises (one on her thigh that looked like a thumb mark), traces of fluids on her inner and outer thighs, and traces of blood around her vaginal area. That speaks of sexual assault to me. Maybe whoever did this to JB was only working up to "penile penetration". When it comes to a sexual assault, digital penetration (or penetration with an object) is just as invasive as penile penetration. Plus there was the expert testimony of several child sexual abuse specialists that came to the conlusion that the abuse was present, and it wasn't a one time thing.

If this was a rage against a child for a bed wetting incident, why are there NO statements from anyone that back up PR having that kind of a temper? The only person who said anything like that was LHP, and I don't buy her story. Her feelings about PR changed drastically as soon as the book deal was in place. She started out saying what a kind and gentle person PR was (see her early statements here http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-hoffmann-pugh.htm), and ended up making her out to be the wicked witch of Boulder. I am NOT a Ramsey defender. I think they are despicable for not coming forward and telling what they know about what happened to JonBenet, and I have no doubt that they know exactly what happened.

All MOO.

I buy the housekeeper's story, because it fits right in with all of the other stories of JB's toileting issues. It has been reported that JB would call out for somebody to wipe her, there were reports that PR told a friend that she douched JB in order to clean the soiling, there were reports of JB suffering from infections, Steve Thomas said there were toileting issues, Kolar said there was feces covered chocolates in JB's bedroom, BR reportedly suffered from smearing issues, and on and on. So, yes, I believe the housekeeper's story of JB crying and screaming with PR in the bathroom because of toileting/cleaning issues. MOO

 

[dodie20]

Her book deal had nothing to do with LHP changing her feelings about Patsy. Her feelings about Patsy changed when she realized the Rs were trying to pin this on her.
Patsy was known to have a bad temper. Her meds didn't help. She almost assuredly drank wine that night at the White's. She was taking antidepressants. They were found in the house. And possibly over-the-counter sleep aids. I think we've all see the warnings on drugs like that. Aggressive behavior, thoughts of suicide, violent outbursts...

On the Howard Stern link on the previous page, the profiler said PR threw a chair during a police interview, so yes, she had a temper, and obviously got physical when angry. This was a lady who had little control over her temper, IMO, and let it all hang out.

 

[redheadedgal]

The injuries I am referring to are the bruises on her legs and vagina, not the head injury.

Jonbenet struggled. The assault hurt, she resisted, and was forced.

Burke was not physically capable of holding down a struggling six year old, who no doubt would be screaming at the top of her lungs as well and maybe (hopefully) biting too.

while i don't agree with this exact scenario per se, again, evidence shows it can happen... in this case an 8 yr old boy raped a 6 yr old at school. i would imagine this 6 yr old would've tried to scream too, right? no one outside the bathroom heard/came running. and, wasn't there also a report that a neighbour heard a scream coming from the ramsey house that fateful night? hmmm.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7437843

 

[redheadedgal]

If this was a rage against a child for a bed wetting incident, why are there NO statements from anyone that back up PR having that kind of a temper? The only person who said anything like that was LHP, and I don't buy her story.

Patsy was known to have a bad temper. Her meds didn't help. Aggressive behavior, thoughts of suicide, violent outbursts...

On the Howard Stern link on the previous page, the profiler said PR threw a chair during a police interview, so yes, she had a temper, and obviously got physical when angry. This was a lady who had little control over her temper, IMO, and let it all hang out.

Jonbenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pp. 326-7:

Haney said they were not ready to show her evidence and challenged her further. "Pal, you don't want to go there," she warned, adding that she was a good Christian woman who did not lie. She pushed back against the couch and exhaled in disgust. "Crimony," she exclaimed.

Haney continued to be inhospitable and probed about whether the death could have been an accident resulting from bed-wetting. Patsy held up a hand, like a stop sign. "You are going down the wrong path, buddy!"

Later she said, "If John Ramsey were involved, honey, we wouldn't be sitting here. I'd have knocked his block off. Read my lips! This was not done by a family member. Didn't happen. Period. End of statement."

Still Haney came on, polite but insistent, inquiring about any family secrets, and she tired of him. "Cut to the chase," she barked.

"Oh, no," Haney responded smoothly. "That would spoil the ride."

"Then spoil my ride," Patsy said, her eyes riveting him. She didn't give an inch.

It was a spell-binding exchange. Tom Haney, with his no-nonsense style and three days in which to ask his questions, had found something I felt to be there somewhere not too far below that polished beauty queen surface. Patsy Ramsey had, for a few moments, lifted her mask. Beneath it, I saw cold rage.


*i don't subscribe to the bed-wetting theory but there is definite evidence that PR had a temper ^^^^^

 

[SapphireSteel]

while i don't agree with this exact scenario per se, again, evidence shows it can happen... in this case an 8 yr old boy raped a 6 yr old at school. i would imagine this 6 yr old would've tried to scream too, right? no one outside the bathroom heard/came running. and, wasn't there also a report that a neighbour heard a scream coming from the ramsey house that fateful night? hmmm.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7437843

That article is dated 2010 and entitled "mother says 6 yr old raped".

I could say I'm the Zodiac Killer, don't make it so. :waitasec:

Would you please provide a link to the follow up of this case?

I also note that the alleged rapist and victim had a load of other kids present as well. Totally different dynamic...that is, if it ever actually happened.

:dunno:

 

[madeleine]

SOME little boys are capable of very horrible things,dunno why it's so hard for some to get

10-year olds Jon Venables and Robert Thompson abducted and killed 3-year-old James Patrick Bulger in 1993

-------------------------

The King brothers...just read up re what they did....
------------------------------

At 13, Smith was at the center of a media storm. His redheaded looks, and his age, were so completely at odds with his horrific crime that he almost got away with murder.

-------------

Smith attracted Robie to a remote location in a park. There Smith strangled Robie, dropped a pair of large rocks on the boy’s head, undressed his body, and sodomized him with a tree limb. The cause of death was determined to be blunt trauma to the head with contributing asphyxia. Two days after Robie's funeral, Smith admitted to Robie's killing. In 1994 Smith was convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to the maximum term then available for juvenile murderers — a minimum of nine years to life in prison.

 

[madeleine]

and pls don't tell me now,ah but these were 10,13....Burke was "only" nine.....

 

[Whaleshark]

Sapphire Steel,

At this point, I am going to consider you in grave denial of any possibilities of children doing anything to anyone else ever.

It's time you show US proof of how you know personally what Burke was specifically physically capable of doing, not doing, where he was at any and all times, and how you know exactly why he didn't have opportunity or ability to do anything.

The same examples above we've provided over and over to you, and still you minimize or outright deny them.

You are the one with a personal issue of denial.

Start proving why Burke was not capable, rather than just 'he was nine, and he was a child', or quit making matter-of-fact statements that you cannot possibly know about, and move on.

 

[dodie20]

I get what everybody's saying about BR being capable, because obviously little kids are capable of committing crimes. And they do!. Where I, personally have a problem with BR being the perp, is IMO, the evidence points more to his mother than him. And a lot of the evidence against BR, while not looking good for him, could also be seen as evidence that he was a dysfunctional little kid in a dysfunctional family. I don't see anything that says, 'Murderer'. Back when I was about 9, my sister and I stayed the night with an aunt and uncle and 2 boy cousins, who were 9 and 11. This family wasn't rich, but they were up-ti-do, and their boys didn't want for a thing. Well, early the next morning, I woke up to a horrible commotion. The older boy had pulled a butcher knife on the younger, and was threatening to kill him. My family didn't act like this, so I was really scared. I woke my aunt up, and after a lot of crying and begging, the boy gave her the knife, and then exhausted, they all went back to bed. Just another day in a dysfunctional family. After yrs of doing weird drugs, like huffing, these guys grew up, and believe it or not, they're ok. The younger one has been to rehab, but the older one is a good dad, goes to church, is a boss at work, so you just never know. Now, if somebody in that home had been murdered, I would have suspected the older boy, simply because I saw that when he was angry, he brandished a knife and threatened to kill... but really, that fight didn't mean much, in the big scheme of things. Because there were reasons he was such an angry child, and you can bet that every single person in that family had secrets, and suffered from some kind of emotional problems.

 

[Tadpole12]

I buy the housekeeper's story, because it fits right in with all of the other stories of JB's toileting issues. It has been reported that JB would call out for somebody to wipe her, there were reports that PR told a friend that she douched JB in order to clean the soiling, there were reports of JB suffering from infections, Steve Thomas said there were toileting issues, Kolar said there was feces covered chocolates in JB's bedroom, BR reportedly suffered from smearing issues, and on and on. So, yes, I believe the housekeeper's story of JB crying and screaming with PR in the bathroom because of toileting/cleaning issues. MOO

"there were reports that PR told a friend that she douched JB in order to clean the soiling," - dodie

Heyya dodie,

Is there an origin to this claim.
I have read around and could never really pinpoint a source.

Also dodie, I was under the belief that penetration with a rigid cylindrical object produces a pattern, damage to the hymen, that is distinguishable from injury caused by the act of digital penetration.

 

[rashomon]

redheadedgal
These things do happen. Maybe BR did smack JB over the head and started the whole thing. Anything is possible. The question to me remains though, why did the parents cover up for something that would never have resulted in a prosecution anyway?

I think both Patsy and John were driven by the motive to keep up the facade of the 'perfect family', which is why they went to such extremes in the cover-up.
Suppose it was Burke who delivered the fatal head blow (for which, as a minor, he could not be prosecuted) imo the Ramseys could not have lived with the public becoming informed of what happened.

 

[dodie20]

I think both Patsy and John were driven by the motive to keep up the facade of the 'perfect family', which is why they went to such extremes in the cover-up.
Suppose it was Burke who delivered the fatal head blow (for which, as a minor, he could not be prosecuted) imo the Ramseys could not have lived with the public becoming informed of what happened.

How was bringing up their tortured, dead daughter from the basement, keeping up the facade of the perfect family? IMO, keeping up the facade, (if BR did this), would have been to undo as much as evidence as possible...the garotte,the rope, etc., and then claim accident, and stick to that version no matter what. OR, dispose of the body and stick to the intruder story. IMO, the condition of JB's body, doesn't point to the parents covering up for BR. Because no matter how much the Rs loved their son, they wouldn't have wanted their daughter to be seen like that. If PR wrote the note, (and I think she did), there's no way she wrote it without knowing JB was dead. And she just left her like that?

 

[BOESP]

and pls don't tell me now,ah but these were 10,13....Burke was "only" nine.....

The boys you gave as examples in your post lived in states that charged them and indicted them then, to best of my knowledge, put them on trial. Based on what has been posted here, Burke could not be charged. There was no reason for Patsy (or any other person being interviewed about Jonenet's death) to be belligerent about Burke. There was no reason for her to defend Burke because at that point she had to know via her lawyers that Burke was not going to prosecuted. Boulder was not, in my opinion, spending money to try and prosecute a case if Burke was the one who killed JonBenet. The police were not out of the loop having no a clue about what went on in that house. Do you think they would have wasted all that time trying to pursue a case that couldn't be taken to court? I don't think so.

 

[cynic]

Somebody on here earlier claimed that a housekeeper found JB and BR under the sheets once and was sent out of the room. I can't find that anywhere in any of the information on LHP, Linda Wilcox or Geraldine Vodicka. Does anyone know where that came from? I had never heard of it before.

I made a good effort to find the origin of this. I couldn't find anything either.

The story is rooted in tabloids only IIRC, specifically, The Globe. It hasn’t been corroborated by any official source, publically.

Sources close to the family have told police that they believe Burke and his little sister regularly played "doctor."
One visitor told GLOBE: "I walked in on them two or three times when they were clearly playing some game like doctor.
"They were in Burke's bedroom and had made a 'fort' of the sheets from his bed. They were under the sheets and Burke was really embarrassed when I asked what was going on.
"He was red-faced and yelled at me to get out. It happened about three times in the months leading up to the Christmas when JonBenét died."
The Globe, 11-17-98

As GLOBE revealed last week, the police have built up a file on Burke and are convinced that he has not told all he knows, say sources.
Insiders say the facts that have aroused their investigation are:
Within days of JonBenet's death, sources say Burke told cops a knife was involved. But that wasn't known publicly until 21 months later, when GLOBE revealed that the boy's Swiss Army knife was used to cut duct tape that gagged the little princess.
Although his parents said he was in bed when Patsy first made a frantic call to police on Dec. 26, an enhancement of the 911 tape proved he was in the background, asking questions.
Shortly after the call and immediately after his attorney friend Mike Bynum told John to get legal counsel for himself and Patsy, Burke's dad took the boy into a room for a private meeting.
Sources say Burke played "doctor" with JonBenet and, according to other sources, showed signs of being disturbed when he smeared feces in his bathroom. Injuries to JonBenet's genitals were consistent with her being molested by a finger, rather than a penis, say sources, something that experts say might be done by a prepubescent boy.

[SNIP]

One scenario discussed by investigators is that Burke and JonBenet - who, as sources recently told GLOBE, were sometimes caught playing doctor by house guests - were using a garrote in a "choking game" that went too far.
The Globe, 11-24-98

 

[SapphireSteel]

The story is rooted in tabloids only IIRC, specifically, The Globe. It hasn’t been corroborated by any official source, publically.

Sources close to the family have told police that they believe Burke and his little sister regularly played "doctor."
One visitor told GLOBE: "I walked in on them two or three times when they were clearly playing some game like doctor.
"They were in Burke's bedroom and had made a 'fort' of the sheets from his bed. They were under the sheets and Burke was really embarrassed when I asked what was going on.
"He was red-faced and yelled at me to get out. It happened about three times in the months leading up to the Christmas when JonBenét died."
The Globe, 11-17-98

As GLOBE revealed last week, the police have built up a file on Burke and are convinced that he has not told all he knows, say sources.
Insiders say the facts that have aroused their investigation are:
Within days of JonBenet's death, sources say Burke told cops a knife was involved. But that wasn't known publicly until 21 months later, when GLOBE revealed that the boy's Swiss Army knife was used to cut duct tape that gagged the little princess.
Although his parents said he was in bed when Patsy first made a frantic call to police on Dec. 26, an enhancement of the 911 tape proved he was in the background, asking questions.
Shortly after the call and immediately after his attorney friend Mike Bynum told John to get legal counsel for himself and Patsy, Burke's dad took the boy into a room for a private meeting.
Sources say Burke played "doctor" with JonBenet and, according to other sources, showed signs of being disturbed when he smeared feces in his bathroom. Injuries to JonBenet's genitals were consistent with her being molested by a finger, rather than a penis, say sources, something that experts say might be done by a prepubescent boy.

[SNIP]

One scenario discussed by investigators is that Burke and JonBenet - who, as sources recently told GLOBE, were sometimes caught playing doctor by house guests - were using a garrote in a "choking game" that went too far.
The Globe, 11-24-98

I would love to know what "visitor" they had who walked in and out of a little boy's bedroom three times uninvited or escorted.

:waitasec:

Burke's knife was at the scene, but it had been confiscated from Burke and hidden in the upstairs linen cupboard. Only Patsy could have found it.

A tabloid with a bunch of unnamed "sources".

Really?

:dunno:

 

[SapphireSteel]

SOME little boys are capable of very horrible things,dunno why it's so hard for some to get

10-year olds Jon Venables and Robert Thompson abducted and killed 3-year-old James Patrick Bulger in 1993

-------------------------

The King brothers...just read up re what they did....
------------------------------

At 13, Smith was at the center of a media storm. His redheaded looks, and his age, were so completely at odds with his horrific crime that he almost got away with murder.

-------------

Smith attracted Robie to a remote location in a park. There Smith strangled Robie, dropped a pair of large rocks on the boy’s head, undressed his body, and sodomized him with a tree limb. The cause of death was determined to be blunt trauma to the head with contributing asphyxia. Two days after Robie's funeral, Smith admitted to Robie's killing. In 1994 Smith was convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to the maximum term then available for juvenile murderers — a minimum of nine years to life in prison.

All of these juvenile offenders have a few things in common.

They come from violent homes.

They were abused, sexually, physically, emotionally, or all three.

They had abandonment issues as one parent had disappeared

They were borderline intelligence

They showed disturbing signs before and after their crimes

They are guilty of arson

They did not act alone

There is a family background of drug and alcohol abuse.

They lived in or near poverty.

So...the above are what is known as risk factors...not all apply to every example you have named but most do.

This is not rocket science, it is statistic driven. Show me a murdering child and I'll show you a child who has been victimised themselves or been exposed to something like it in the home.

Burke lacks every single one of these risk factors.

There are also no indicators since. He has grown up to be a perfectly normal young man with a good career, friends, a girlfriend.

Almost impossible, if he was a murdering child.

:cow:

 

[MichaelSmith]

Hi everyone. Newbie here. I recently read the Steve Thomas book.

The BDI theory seems the most believable with J&P or just P staging and covering up to protect him but it lacks evidence and the biggest flaw is John Ramsey letting him leave the house that morning and then return to school. You'd think if BDI then J&P wouldn't have let him out of their sight or talk to anymore and home schooled him out of fear he'd talk.

How do you guys rationalise Burke being allowed to leave the house and return to school as if nothing had happened?

 

[madeleine]

How was bringing up their tortured, dead daughter from the basement, keeping up the facade of the perfect family? IMO, keeping up the facade, (if BR did this), would have been to undo as much as evidence as possible...the garotte,the rope, etc., and then claim accident, and stick to that version no matter what. OR, dispose of the body and stick to the intruder story. IMO, the condition of JB's body, doesn't point to the parents covering up for BR. Because no matter how much the Rs loved their son, they wouldn't have wanted their daughter to be seen like that. If PR wrote the note, (and I think she did), there's no way she wrote it without knowing JB was dead. And she just left her like that?

@bold
what you say makes perfect sense but IMO we're not dealing with a normal family here,remember what they said only 5 days after the murder?she's in a better place.remember Patsy at the funeral and how poor JB was dressed and all the make up,crown and stuff?Patsy definitely was an attention seeker and all this makes me wonder about the reason the RN was written as well IF she was the one who wrote it (to cover for BR,JR or herself,doesn't matter),to add more salt&pepper to the drama?