GUILTY KS - Andrew Finch, 28, killed by LE in 'swatting' prank, Wichita, 28 Dec 2017 *civil trial 2022*

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Any idea on what he'll be charged with? I'm hoping that he can be hit with both state (Kansas?) and federal charges.
 
RAISINISBACK said:
BBM

Police officers go through almost continuous training. Long hours put in training. But since you obviously know what pressure they are under let's try this.

I will tell you what. You join the police force and when a man pulls a gun on you then you can just politely ask him not to shoot you.

How about you face a drug crazed person out of their mind with a knife and you stand there and politely try to reason with them.

Or let's try this. You face a man with a gun pointed at the head of a child and try to disarm him by politely requesting he let the child go and not kill anyone.

Ever heard the old phrase "don't judge me until you have walked a mile in my shoes"? Maybe you need to walk a mile in a police officers shoes or boots whatever the case may be.

JMO
Click to expand...

Did the victim in this case have a gun or knife in his hand?
 
RAISINISBACK said:
BBM

Police officers go through almost continuous training. Long hours put in training. But since you obviously know what pressure they are under let's try this.

I will tell you what. You join the police force and when a man pulls a gun on you then you can just politely ask him not to shoot you.

How about you face a drug crazed person out of their mind with a knife and you stand there and politely try to reason with them.

Or let's try this. You face a man with a gun pointed at the head of a child and try to disarm him by politely requesting he let the child go and not kill anyone.

Ever heard the old phrase "don't judge me until you have walked a mile in my shoes"? Maybe you need to walk a mile in a police officers shoes or boots whatever the case may be.

JMO
Click to expand...

But this was none of those situations. If police are so traumatised from past interactions they are in the wrong job. Other countries have all those situations and the police rarely shoot the people involved.
 
Wow - and I have never heard of swatting before, either, I had to look it up:

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192156209.html

Of course, there should be VERY stiff penalties for anyone who engages in swatting. No excuses, especially for something as trivial as gaming.

To quote my dear late father, a former state policeman in CT:

"Some people think they can do anything they want to anyone they want anytime they want - and you can't."

His exact words.

There is a reason we have laws.

NO ONE should be able to skirt the laws without paying consequences.

We need to return to a society where the catchword is accountability.

And the stopping of blaming others for one's actions.
 
From what I've read so far, the victim was unarmed.
 
RAISINISBACK said:
BBM

Police officers go through almost continuous training. Long hours put in training. But since you obviously know what pressure they are under let's try this.

I will tell you what. You join the police force and when a man pulls a gun on you then you can just politely ask him not to shoot you.

How about you face a drug crazed person out of their mind with a knife and you stand there and politely try to reason with them.

Or let's try this. You face a man with a gun pointed at the head of a child and try to disarm him by politely requesting he let the child go and not kill anyone.

Ever heard the old phrase "don't judge me until you have walked a mile in my shoes"? Maybe you need to walk a mile in a police officers shoes or boots whatever the case may be.

JMO
Click to expand...


Funny that as the victim was not a threat and had no weapon found on him.

American are a joke when it comes to guns even the police can’t be trusted to use them accordingly it seems.
 
Baciagalupo said:
So the police just shoot without confirming anything? Just shoot, ask questions later seems to be the motto of the US police.
I wonder if anything will happen to the police in this case or if will go the same as the case of the poor woman in Minnesota.
Unbelievable.
Click to expand...
BBM

I agree that there are too many cases of LE mistakes. One case is too many, but this is not a perfect world and I think it’s very unfair to say that shooting first is the “motto” of US police.

Come on folks, let’s think this through instead of having a knee-jerk “police are bad (or incompetent)” reaction (and yes, some are, no argument there). Police respond to a presumed hostage situation such as this, putting their lives on the line, and there isn’t the luxury of standing around “confirming anything.” The object is to save lives.

A man appears at the door, seems to police to ignore directions and appears to reach for his waistband. Things are happening fast. What does anyone expect LE to do? Interview the man? There are supposedly hostages who need help. What if this was real and you were a hostage? Would you want them to hesitate? There would be cries of police incompetence if they didn’t take immediate action to protect hostages. Hostage negotiators are not usually first responders, so given what we know, I don’t see that LE was out of bounds in this case. Do you honestly expect perfection of LE every single time they go out on a call to help people in danger?

This is a horrible tragedy caused by the person who made the fake 911 swatting call and no one else. There is no reason to automatically presume this is a trigger-happy police response, and it’s pretty disrespectful to LE everywhere to do so IMO.
 
Lilibet said:
BBM

I agree that there are too many cases of LE mistakes. One case is too many, but this is not a perfect world and I think it’s very unfair to say that shooting first is the “motto” of US police.

Come on folks, let’s think this through instead of having a knee-jerk “police are bad (or incompetent)” reaction (and yes, some are, no argument there). Police respond to a presumed hostage situation such as this, putting their lives on the line, and there isn’t the luxury of standing around “confirming anything.” The object is to save lives.

A man appears at the door, seems to police to ignore directions and appears to reach for his waistband. Things are happening fast. What does anyone expect LE to do? Interview the man? There are supposedly hostages who need help. What if this was real and you were a hostage? Would you want them to hesitate? There would be cries of police incompetence if they didn’t take immediate action to protect hostages. Hostage negotiators are not usually first responders, so given what we know, I don’t see that LE was out of bounds in this case. Do you honestly expect perfection of LE every single time they go out on a call to help people in danger?

This is a horrible tragedy caused by the person who made the fake 911 swatting call and no one else. There is no reason to automatically presume this is a trigger-happy police response, and it’s pretty disrespectful to LE everywhere to do so IMO.
Click to expand...

Hence why civilized country’s don’t shot to kill and then ask questions later. The cop is responsible for killing a innocent man as the victim was not a threat to him.
 
Barriss is the same man who allegedly called in a bomb threat to ABC station KABC in 2015, which led to an evacuation of the Los Angeles television station, according to the Glendale Police Department in Los Angeles County. Barriss received a two-year sentence, court records show.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/la-man-arrested-swatting-incident-led-police-killing/story?id=52057251

Upon arriving at the scene, officers surrounded the front of the house, preparing to make contact with the caller inside and for the potential situation of a hostage barricaded with suspects, police said.

A 28-year-old man opened the door of the home and was told to raise his hands and walk toward the officers -- a command he obeyed for "a very short time" until he moved his hands back down to his waist, police said.

The officers ordered him again to put his hands up but the man lowered them down again, police said. As the man turned toward officers on the east side of the home, he lowered his hands to his waistband and suddenly pulled them up to the officers, police said. That's when an officer on the north side of the home fired one round, striking the man.
 
Tyler Barriss, the guy who made the "swatting" hoax call, was actually interviewed by DramaAlert before he was arrested. To say he was nonchalant about the whole thing is an understatement! I expected a ghetto smack talker, but his speech is clear, calm and straightforward -- which makes everything even more bizarre!

Start watching the Youtube at 4:50 for the interview:

[video=youtube;cCHOI39nJPM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCHOI39nJPM[/video]
 
asyousay said:
Hence why civilized country’s don’t shot to kill and then ask questions later. The cop is responsible for killing a innocent man as the victim was not a threat to him.
Click to expand...

Of course this particular cop is responsible for killing an innocent man. I’m sure he is devastated too and will always live with it. That’s not the point I was making.

I was responding to someone painting all U.S. LE with a broad brush, saying their motto is “shoot first, ask questions later,” ignoring the man who caused them to be there in the first place. I don’t think most cops want to or do shoot to kill and ask questions later. I hate that it happens at all. But, on the one hand, we expect them to save us from a murderer, but then we criticize when they act according to their training and instincts and make an error. The only way to prevent that is to disarm LE IMO. There will always be human error or a cop who shoots when he shouldn’t. As I said, we don’t live in a perfect world.

What civilized countries are you referencing? And how do they handle volatile situations? What can U.S. LE learn from them? Specifics please, not generalities. Otherwise it’s not a reasonable discussion. Thanks.
 
Lilibet said:
Of course this particular cop is responsible for killing an innocent man. I’m sure he is devastated too and will always live with it. That’s not the point I was making.

I was responding to someone painting all U.S. LE with a broad brush, saying their motto is “shoot first, ask questions later,” ignoring the man who caused them to be there in the first place. I don’t think most cops want to or do shoot to kill and ask questions later. I hate that it happens at all. But, on the one hand, we expect them to save us from a murderer, but then we criticize when they act according to their training and instincts and make an error. The only way to prevent that is to disarm LE IMO. There will always be human error or a cop who shoots when he shouldn’t. As I said, we don’t live in a perfect world.

What civilized countries are you referencing? And how do they handle volatile situations? What can U.S. LE learn from them? Specifics please, not generalities. Otherwise it’s not a reasonable discussion. Thanks.
Click to expand...


I am from the UK and the police are not armed and innocent people don’t have to live in fear that they will randomly be murdered for doing absolutely nothing wrong by people who are supposed to protect them.

From a newspaper article


The Metropolitan Police carried out some 3,300 deployments involving firearms in 2016. They didn't fire a single shot at a suspect.

It's a world away from the United States, where cops killed 1,092 people in 2016, according to figures compiled by The Guardian.
 
asyousay said:
I am from the UK and the police are not armed and innocent people don’t have to live in fear that they will randomly be murdered for doing absolutely nothing wrong by people who are supposed to protect them.

From a newspaper article


The Metropolitan Police carried out some 3,300 deployments involving firearms in 2016. They didn't fire a single shot at a suspect.

It's a world away from the United States, where cops killed 1,092 people in 2016, according to figures compiled by The Guardian.
Click to expand...

How many of your cops have been shot at or stabbed, by people they are trying to arrest?

In 2016, 57,180 officers were victims of line-of-duty assaults.

At the time the 66 law enforcement officers were feloniously killed:

17 were ambushed (entrapment/premeditation);
13 were answering disturbance calls (seven were domestic disturbance calls);
nine were investigating suspicious persons/circumstances;
six were engaged in tactical situations;
five were performing investigative activities (such as surveillances, searches, or interviews);
four were conducting traffic pursuits/stops;
three were investigating drug-related matters;
three were victims of unprovoked attacks;
one was answering a burglary in progress call or pursuing a burglary suspect(s);
one was answering a robbery in progress call or pursuing a robbery suspect(s); and
four were attempting other arrests.
Weapons: Offenders used firearms to kill 62 of the 66 victim officers. Of these 62 officers, 37 were slain with handguns, 24 with rifles, and one with a shotgun. Four officers were killed with vehicles used as weapons.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/p...cers-killed-and-assaulted-in-the-line-of-duty
 
asyousay said:
Funny that as the victim was not a threat and had no weapon found on him.

American are a joke when it comes to guns even the police can’t be trusted to use them accordingly it seems.
Click to expand...


In this case the 911 caller informed police that the suspect had a gun and had already killed his father and was holding his mother and siblings hostage with the intent of killing them and burning down his house with them in it.

So let's say you are the police officer. It comes over dispatch that a suspect has a gun, has killed his father and is probably going to or already has killed his mother and two siblings.

So you tell me which one you would do?

Would you roll up to the house and walk up to the door and politely knock and when a man answers ask him in as polite a manner possible "Sir do you have a gun? Did you just kill your father? Are you going to kill your mother and siblings? Because if so, Sir I would really like for you to give me that gun pretty please with sugar on top."

Or do you roll up to the house expecting the man to have a gun because you have been told by the 911 caller and dispatch that he has a gun, knowing he may have just killed one person and possibly have already killed three more because the 911 caller told dispatch that who told you that, and since you don't want to die that day you pull your own gun.?

Tell me, since you obviously know just exactly who should or should not be trusted with a gun, which one of those actions you would take if you were that police officer?
 
asyousay said:
I am from the UK and the police are not armed and innocent people don’t have to live in fear that they will randomly be murdered for doing absolutely nothing wrong by people who are supposed to protect them.

From a newspaper article


The Metropolitan Police carried out some 3,300 deployments involving firearms in 2016. They didn't fire a single shot at a suspect.

It's a world away from the United States, where cops killed 1,092 people in 2016, according to figures compiled by The Guardian.
Click to expand...
BBM

I would truly love for that to be the case in the U.S. I would love to know how U.K. LE handles cases this way. I’m sure our L.E. could learn something valuable and I’d appreciate a link to the article you mention so that I can read specifics. Do you have school and mall shootings? How would that be handled? You don’t need to answer. I’m asking rhetorically so as not to derail the thread. I can google.

But our LE are armed, and that is not likely to change. So my point in posting originally is that I object to blanket condemnation of all U.S. LE anytime one cop shoots someone. I hate that it ever happens, but I’m sure there are plenty of cases in which armed LE diffuse a situation without killing anyone. Unfortunately, these stories don‘t get more than local news coverage usually. I just wish a story like this one could be discussed without turning it into an LE bashing thread. It doesn’t effect change and it’s not productive at all in the midst of a tragedy like this.
JMO
 
Lilibet said:
BBM

I agree that there are too many cases of LE mistakes. One case is too many, but this is not a perfect world and I think it’s very unfair to say that shooting first is the “motto” of US police.

Come on folks, let’s think this through instead of having a knee-jerk “police are bad (or incompetent)” reaction (and yes, some are, no argument there). Police respond to a presumed hostage situation such as this, putting their lives on the line, and there isn’t the luxury of standing around “confirming anything.” The object is to save lives.

A man appears at the door, seems to police to ignore directions and appears to reach for his waistband. Things are happening fast. What does anyone expect LE to do? Interview the man? There are supposedly hostages who need help. What if this was real and you were a hostage? Would you want them to hesitate? There would be cries of police incompetence if they didn’t take immediate action to protect hostages. Hostage negotiators are not usually first responders, so given what we know, I don’t see that LE was out of bounds in this case. Do you honestly expect perfection of LE every single time they go out on a call to help people in danger?

This is a horrible tragedy caused by the person who made the fake 911 swatting call and no one else. There is no reason to automatically presume this is a trigger-happy police response, and it’s pretty disrespectful to LE everywhere to do so IMO.
Click to expand...

Great post. Thank you and thank you on behalf of those LE everywhere who put their lives on the line every time they put on a uniform.

And for those of you who want to criticize a police officer doing their duty, if you ever have a gun pointed at your head, call a protester to save you.

JMO
 
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