GUILTY KS - Andrew Finch, 28, killed by LE in 'swatting' prank, Wichita, 28 Dec 2017 *civil trial 2022*

[Whirring]

I don't know how much experience Andrew Finch had with police dealing with an alleged 'shooter'. As far as I am aware, he was an ordinary man, who was in his home when he heard a lot of noise outside and went to see what was happening. It was dark outside, he may have only had lamps on. He opened the door and is practically blinded by lights shining from over the road; it would take a few moments for him to try to comprehend what was happening.

Even if he managed to grasp that it was the police, when he hears immense shouting from numerous people, why would he think for a moment it was aimed at him? He's a law abiding citizen who's been watching tv or whatever. The light would be extremely confusing as would the voices which overlap so it's not easy to even hear what they're saying.

It must be very frightening to be a police officer, especially in a 'shooter' situation. But the approach of everyone shouting at once surely increases the anxiety levels of the police themselves, and expecting people to comply instantly is unrealistic and all to often results in the deaths of innocent people.

There are so many guns in the US that it isn't just the weapons themselves that kill. The fear of guns kills countless people too. What a mess.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Swatting case poses legal challenges for police, prosecutors - CNN

 

[Deleted member 158085]

I don't know how much experience Andrew Finch had with police dealing with an alleged 'shooter'. As far as I am aware, he was an ordinary man, who was in his home when he heard a lot of noise outside and went to see what was happening. It was dark outside, he may have only had lamps on. He opened the door and is practically blinded by lights shining from over the road; it would take a few moments for him to try to comprehend what was happening.

Even if he managed to grasp that it was the police, when he hears immense shouting from numerous people, why would he think for a moment it was aimed at him? He's a law abiding citizen who's been watching tv or whatever. The light would be extremely confusing as would the voices which overlap so it's not easy to even hear what they're saying.

It must be very frightening to be a police officer, especially in a 'shooter' situation. But the approach of everyone shouting at once surely increases the anxiety levels of the police themselves, and expecting people to comply instantly is unrealistic and all to often results in the deaths of innocent people.

There are so many guns in the US that it isn't just the weapons themselves that kill. The fear of guns kills countless people too. What a mess.

This is what I was thinking about. When I lived in town, whenever there were police lights on the street, people would come out on their front porches to see what was going on. I could picture myself doing that, just having gotten up off the couch, having no idea they are focused on ME, hearing shouting and looking around to see what it was about. I am not sure that in that situation I would comprehend immediately that they wanted ME to put my hands up. I would still be assuming that they were yelling at a perp.

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[Ibiz]

Maybe screaming doesn't work. Especially multiple people screaming at once. If he had done nothing more than walk out his front door to see what the noise was about, he may not have even known they were screaming at him or someone on the footpath or his neighbour.

I think they use to stand outside and yell through microphones for the suspect to come out with hands up. But I guess after columbine, a lot experts decided that it wasn't a good idea for the police to stand outside while people were inside being murdered. So I think their more trained to charge into the situation with guns blazing.

 

[Jax49]

Swatting case poses legal challenges for police, prosecutors - CNN

Kansas authorities probably would be the ones to file a homicide charge, he said, noting that a reckless homicide conviction in Kansas is punishable by up to 15 years in prison.

Hopefully they can add additional charges. moo

 

[LadyL]

there's a process that includes negotiators ... they attempt contact with the suspect & a peaceful resolution first
don't know if they tried that in this case

I think they use to stand outside and yell through microphones for the suspect to come out with hands up. But I guess after columbine, a lot experts decided that it wasn't a good idea for the police to stand outside while people were inside being murdered. So I think their more trained to charge into the situation with guns blazing.

 

[LadyL]

[bbm]

that comment hit me in my core
I really feel for all cops trying to navigate this chaotic world

A rather timely juxtaposition.

Similar situation, one legit, one not.

How can LE differentiate, without going home in a box?

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[gitana1]

This is a horrible tragedy! I learned about this from an information security author's blog. He was the victim of a SWATter in 2013 after exposing a hacker, which gives him a unique perspective on this incident. He's also tracked down quite a few posts from the perpetrator, both before and after an account name change. I sure hope the arrest evidence sticks - the perpetrator's posts show no remorse or caring. Even given the police overreaction, if someone calls in a report of a domestic dispute turned murder+hostage situation, they surely don't expect the cops to walk onto the scene with lollipops drawn.

His article (very useful detail about the hoaxer's communications here): https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/12/kansas-man-killed-in-swatting-attack/#more-42076





Question for our legal gurus, if any are following the thread. Is making such a fraudulent report a felony in both Kansas and in CA (where the suspected perpetrator was arrested)? Which state's law is applicable in this case - I'm guessing Kansas since that's where the false report was received and acted upon?


p.s. I have never been able to bring myself to type "swatting" or "swatter" - imo it trivializes the severity of the crime. I use "SWATting" and "SWATter" to reinforce the unnecessary jeopardy that the victims of these criminals are placed in. (MOO!)

I think the guy could be charged with voluntary manslaughter.

Also, we have too many incidents with our police like this. They were in full SWAT gear. What threat was an unarmed man to them standing at the door? (I doubt the reaching for his waistband nonsense either. That's not the natural reaction of someone stunned at their doorway.)

Here's a look at how SWAT handles things in another country. Dutch LE handle a man with a gun who took over a news station. I think he would've been riddled with bullets in the US. He was holding a weapon when they entered the room: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ei1sfNa6YW4

 

[gitana1]

A rather timely juxtaposition.

Similar situation, one legit, one not.

How can LE differentiate, without going home in a box?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

It's not a similar situation at all. In the other one regular LE responded to a domestic call. Then SWAT was called in.

In this one, SWAT came on the scene assuming the person was armed and dangerous so they were in full protective gear and using specific techniques for handling such a dangerous situation with hostages, including hiding behind protective barriers.

Shooting the first person who opens the door doesn't seem like part of their tehnique.

This wasn't regular LE rolling up vulnerable, and not knowing what they were about to encounter.

I'm pretty sure someone had a twitchy trigger finger and got over excited.

 

[LadyL]

[sbm]

I don't see any differences. He dropped the gun immediately when they yelled at him to. He got down on the ground when they told him to. They then charged at him, yelling all the while, and secured him. They didn't need to shoot him because he complied with their instructions.

Here's a look at how SWAT handles things in another country. Dutch LE handle a man with a gun who took over a news station. I think he would've been riddled with bullets in the US. He was holding a weapon when they entered the room: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ei1sfNa6YW4

 

[gitana1]

Profile Of People Who Engage In Swatting
Males
Teenagers To 20s
Driven By Revenge
Jealousy-They see someone who is successful and want to get revenge at them.
Thrill Seeking (Anti-Social)

HMS you can always be counted on for the on point criminal profiles.

Yeah. This was no prank. It was vengeance. This is the kind of creep who commits mass murder I think. Injustice collector?

Police sometimes over react because they have been placed in dangerous situations so many times.

I have family members who are LE in the local, state and federal levels. They wear bullet proof vest but that doesn't always stop a bullet and most are totally ineffective against knives.

The stories they tell about how they answer a call, tell a suspect to place their hands over their head and the numerous times that the suspect either doesn't do it or charges toward the officer are too many to list on here.

I had a relative who once trusted a woman he had pulled over. He told her to step out of the car and place her hands on the hood. She stepped out but just stood there. He trusted her because she was an older woman so he walked toward her and reached to grab her arm. She stabbed him in the side through his vest.

So I know why they over react.

I feel like SWAT is supposed to be better trained than that and know how not to overreact.

BBM

I agree that there are too many cases of LE mistakes. One case is too many, but this is not a perfect world and I think it’s very unfair to say that shooting first is the “motto” of US police.

Come on folks, let’s think this through instead of having a knee-jerk “police are bad (or incompetent)” reaction (and yes, some are, no argument there). Police respond to a presumed hostage situation such as this, putting their lives on the line, and there isn’t the luxury of standing around “confirming anything.” The object is to save lives.

A man appears at the door, seems to police to ignore directions and appears to reach for his waistband. Things are happening fast. What does anyone expect LE to do? Interview the man? There are supposedly hostages who need help. What if this was real and you were a hostage? Would you want them to hesitate? There would be cries of police incompetence if they didn’t take immediate action to protect hostages. Hostage negotiators are not usually first responders, so given what we know, I don’t see that LE was out of bounds in this case. Do you honestly expect perfection of LE every single time they go out on a call to help people in danger?

This is a horrible tragedy caused by the person who made the fake 911 swatting call and no one else. There is no reason to automatically presume this is a trigger-happy police response, and it’s pretty disrespectful to LE everywhere to do so IMO.

Sadly, things are going to happen accidentally due to the nature of the irvumetances. That's true.

That being said I don't believe he repeatedly put his hands down "near his waistband". His family said he opened the door, screamed and was shot. Doesn't sound like there was time for him to be given multiple orders which he followed for a moment and then didn't, and then did, etc.

However, to be fair, it is a definitely tense and scary situation and under such circumstances if they knew he was the hostage taker they'd have every reason to shoot him dead without any warning at all to prevent him from annihilating the rest of the family.

But i don't think they had time to figure out who he was. It could have been anyone opening that door including an escaping hostage.

Tyler Barriss, the guy who made the "swatting" hoax call, was actually interviewed by DramaAlert before he was arrested. To say he was nonchalant about the whole thing is an understatement! I expected a ghetto smack talker, but his speech is clear, calm and straightforward -- which makes everything even more bizarre!

Start watching the Youtube at 4:50 for the interview:

[video=youtube;cCHOI39nJPM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCHOI39nJPM[/video]

What a .

Everyone should listen to this horrible human being. Nonchalant is definitely an understatement. HE is the one who put LE in this situation. But he’s not guilty because he didn’t pull the trigger. Oh, and someone else asked him to do the swatting so there are others who are guilty too. Can we pile on this guy for a change?

I sure hope so. I do believe this would allow for a second degree murder charge. And conviction. This person committed a similar crime and apparently does it regularly. He needs to be put away for life.

I'm wondering how far he is on the spectrum since he really doesn't seem to have a clue

He's very high functioning. Extremely articulate. He has a clue. Knew exactly what he was doing and that it was illegal.

Let's put the real blame squarely where it belongs--on Tyler Raj Barriss, who went out of his way to call in a completely false, highly detailed, shooting and hostage situation. He knew where to call, and what to say, to ensure a robust response. He needs 30-40 years in prison for that, IMO.

I'd like to see the penalties for this kind of intentional terroristic false reports be elevated with *substantial* prison time mandatory. These are not "pranks"-- it's terroristic behavior on the part of the one making the false reports. It's not a joke-- it's a serious crime. IMO, just as serious as if Barriss pulled the trigger himself and killed Finch.

Snipped for space. Seriously. How was he only jailed for a year or so? In this day and age of gun massacres and terror the penalties need to be vastly higher.

BBM for emphasis.

I'm not the OP, but I interpreted that comment very differently. My interpretation is that the police officer's actions shouldn't be considered as to whether Tyler Barriss should face charges for what he did. Of course the officer's actions are relevant, but TB's actions should be charged on what HE did. He called in a false terroristic situation, and police took it seriously and responded. The specific details of what police did or didn't do simply aren't relevant to the fact that Tyler Barris, IMO, set in motion very intentionally, and with malice, the events that produced the death of an innocent victim. That is what should be admissible at TB's trial, IMO. "HOW" the police responded is not relevant to TB's culpability, IMO.

I think TB should be charged with about a half dozen very serious felonies, state as well as federal.

I don't think we know enough YET about police procedures and what exactly happened, to say that the officer should or shouldn't face any criminal charges.

You are 100% right that for the perp the actions of the police are relevant to the perp's charges. It like the logic behind the felony murder rule. If you rob a bank with a buddy and the buddy unknowingly to you brings a gun and shoots someone YOU can be charged with felony murder because you participated in an inherently dangerous crime that allowed for such a thing to happen.

This guy knew knew full well the danger the residents of that house were facing due to his call. He knew they were all
in danger of great bodily harm.

Monster.

I'm glad he's talking.

 

[gitana1]

All that screaming is what the officers are trained to do.

Here is a couple of statements from police officers.

The phrase "get on the ground" is drilled into many officers during their training. It's a simple phrase that is easily said under stress and most people understand the meaning when they hear it.

https://www.quora.com/When-cops-are...cream-for-the-suspect-to-give-them-their-arms

Well then the training needs to change. There is no way humanly possible for someone to concentrate on and understand the words of several
strangers screaming at them at once. Absolutely ridiculous.

[sbm]

I don't see any differences. He dropped the gun immediately when they yelled at him to. He got down on the ground when they told him to. They then charged at him, yelling all the while, and secured him. They didn't need to shoot him because he complied with their instructions.

He was a terrorist who took over a news station and was holding a person hostage and was holding a gun in his hand when SWAT came in the room. Different situations. Here, the guy was not holding any weapon at all. But in the Dutch one he was more of a threat when they entered because he was actually and visibly holding a weapon when they entered. In the states he would have been immediately riddled with bullets. No wanring at all.

We tend to do things very different here in general. Maybe it is because there are so many guns here and LE is more prone as a result to be anticipating getting shot. Or fearful of that.

And again, I don't believe for a moment that Andrew was repeatedly reaching for his waistband. It makes no sense that all these unarmed people around the nation are constantly "reaching for their waistband" when approached by screaming cops.

 

[zencompass]

Dear Gitana1,

We can always count on you to quickly get to the truthful facts in any matter.

Thank you for your contribution to this website. I always look forward to your posts and I know I am not alone saying this!

It's not just your experience and legal opinions that are top-notch - but the clear and thoughtful way you impart information with such great care and compassion.

You are greatly appreciated!

 

[zencompass]

This case saddens my heart, as I know it does for others here.

How tragic and, in my opinion, an avoidable ending.

Sending prayers of comfort, love and strength to the loved ones.

 

[LietKynes]

I just keep thinking about this tragedy... not all cases move me to tears -- but this one has.

It'd be nice to think that police should err on the side of caution -- but since I'm not a cop I don't feel I have the right to say that those in law enforcement should take lethal risks.
Maybe if I spent a few days in their shoes I'd have a better idea as to how they should respond.
LE deserve to go home to their families , too.
Keep going back and forth about this-- but I still believe this is on TB.

So much rage against the monstrous perp.
A life is forever blotted out and he's like, 'well the cops shouldn't have fired on him....'
How would TB like it if someone had called a hostage/violence blaming HIM ???
Piece of excrement.
:moo:

 

[Jax49]

Slightly O/T

Found this case where the widow is suing claiming LE shouted contradictory commands. "Get on the ground" and "hands up" at the same time. This isn't the case I mentioned earlier but it is a similar situation.

And “after a mere eight seconds of shouting inconsistent commands,” it says, Brewer fired his 12-gauge shotgun at Myers’ chest from about 6 to 8 feet away.

Not easy for anyone to follow orders if they can't hear or make sense of them. moo

 

[Jennifer17]

Slightly O/T

Found this case where the widow is suing claiming LE shouted contradictory commands. "Get on the ground" and "hands up" at the same time. This isn't the case I mentioned earlier but it is a similar situation.



Not easy for anyone to follow orders if they can't hear or make sense of them. moo

Yes, I saw a video of an arrest like that. Some yelling one thing and others screaming another instruction. With lots of profanity too.

 

[Gardenista]

I don't know how much experience Andrew Finch had with police dealing with an alleged 'shooter'. As far as I am aware, he was an ordinary man, who was in his home when he heard a lot of noise outside and went to see what was happening. It was dark outside, he may have only had lamps on. He opened the door and is practically blinded by lights shining from over the road; it would take a few moments for him to try to comprehend what was happening.

Even if he managed to grasp that it was the police, when he hears immense shouting from numerous people, why would he think for a moment it was aimed at him? He's a law abiding citizen who's been watching tv or whatever. The light would be extremely confusing as would the voices which overlap so it's not easy to even hear what they're saying.

It must be very frightening to be a police officer, especially in a 'shooter' situation. But the approach of everyone shouting at once surely increases the anxiety levels of the police themselves, and expecting people to comply instantly is unrealistic and all to often results in the deaths of innocent people.

There are so many guns in the US that it isn't just the weapons themselves that kill. The fear of guns kills countless people too. What a mess.

I thought Andrew knew the police might be coming due to the chats he had

 

[Jennifer17]

I thought Andrew knew the police might be coming due to the chats he had

I have read different info on that. Some say that he was targeted, but other reports say that it was not the other gamer's address. I don't know which is true.

 

[Jax49]

I have read different info on that. Some say that he was targeted, but other reports say that it was not the other gamer's address. I don't know which is true.

Everything I've read said AF wasn't a gamer.