KS - Caleb Schwab, 10, dies on 17-story Schlitterbahn waterpark slide, Aug 2016

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Children cannot consent to that waiver legally.

All admissions, tickets and memberships are subject to these Terms and Conditions. Any person who receives a ticket or membership, regardless of whether that person was the purchaser, is subject to these Terms and Conditions.
 
Is there a dead horse smiley on this forum?

I think that until more information is released (which may or may not happen), we will likely all stick to our opinions on the subject. Meaning many of us feel the ride had design flaws and the park was negligent in many ways. Obviously at least 1 person thinks otherwise and that's their prerogative. I am not exactly sure why he is so hell bent on defending this park. Perhaps there is some personal connection that I am not aware of. Whatever the reason...that's perfectly fine, of course. But I worry some of the defending of the park comes off as a bit disrespectful to the family of the deceased.

Just my opinion, of course.
 
many of us feel the ride had design flaws and the park was negligent in many ways

if you (or anybody else) feel the ride had "design flaws" then so be it, that is your opinion, and i am not going to try to change your opinion,

but right now it is just that, only your own opinion,

what i have a problem with is people going around preaching their own opinion as a fact,

i don't care how many people thought the ride had "design flaws" because nothing has been proven in regards to this "design flaw" theory, and i highly doubt anything ever will be,

"design flaw" or not doesn't matter....read the terms when you enter the park
 
yikes, I am not defending the park, but I agree that patrons implicitly accept the terms and conditions in exchange for admittance. and IMO that ride had design flaws FWIW. And now I shall back out of this thread again. wowsers.
 
has this been posted?

KANSAS CITY, KS (KCTV) - Stan Demster is a licensed professional engineer who claims he warned Schlitterbahn he noticed design flaws during Verruckt's construction.

He says his concerns led to a phone call with the company, but he was largely brushed off.

“Has your engineer really checked this thing out? I’d be happy for free to give you an analysis and show you what's wrong with the design," said Demster in a letter and phone call to the Kansas City, KS waterpark.

Demster said he was stunned a waterslide would attempt to pull both positive and negative g-forces without some sort of safety mechanism that would make the ride safe, like a rub rail system.

“I don't how to say it. It's just something you wouldn't build. I have identified at least 10 very serious defects in the design of this thing that pretty well establishes that no engineer designed this ride,” Demster said.

much more @ http://www.kctv5.com/story/32816429/experts-wind-could-exacerbate-design-flaws-on-verruckt
 
has this been posted?

KANSAS CITY, KS (KCTV) - Stan Demster is a licensed professional engineer who claims he warned Schlitterbahn he noticed design flaws during Verruckt's construction.

He says his concerns led to a phone call with the company, but he was largely brushed off.

“Has your engineer really checked this thing out? I’d be happy for free to give you an analysis and show you what's wrong with the design," said Demster in a letter and phone call to the Kansas City, KS waterpark.

Demster said he was stunned a waterslide would attempt to pull both positive and negative g-forces without some sort of safety mechanism that would make the ride safe, like a rub rail system.

“I don't how to say it. It's just something you wouldn't build. I have identified at least 10 very serious defects in the design of this thing that pretty well establishes that no engineer designed this ride,” Demster said.

much more @ http://www.kctv5.com/story/32816429/experts-wind-could-exacerbate-design-flaws-on-verruckt

That's very troubling information.

As a reminder, on the Missouri side of the river, engineers and public officials are attuned to safety and the consequences of ignoring design flaws. They still remember the overlooked design flaws that led to the collapse of the skywalk at the Hyatt Regency in Kansas City, MO back in 1981.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse

http://skywalk.kansascity.com/articles/sections/disaster/

114 people were killed and 216 were injured. It was a horrible tragedy that scarred Kansas Citians for many years.
 
it seems pretty easy to understand if you just break it down to the following few paragraphs....




  • I acknowledge, understand and agree that bodily or physical injury or harm, sometimes serious, or even death, may be caused by or arise or result from or be attributable to the use of or participation in or on any amusement attraction, ride or device or other recreational facilities located at the park.


  • I voluntarily accept and voluntarily assume the risk of bodily or physical injury or harm or death that may be caused by or arise or result from or be attributable to the use of or participation in or on any amusement attraction, ride or device or other recreational facilities located at the park.

I agree not to bring any litigation or other legal action against the park and all park owners, operators and lessees, all owners / lessors or manufacturers / designers / distributors of real or personal property including attractions used in the operation of the park, and all of their respective owners, affiliates, management, managers, officers, employees, agents, contractors or representatives, if I am hurt or otherwise suffer any bodily or physical injury or harm or death while or from using any amusement attraction, ride or device or other recreational facilities at the park by reason of any bodily or physical injury or harm or death, including any that may be caused by or arise or result from or be attributable to any person’s negligence.

please take note of the word "designers" in the above statement,


and this clears them from the "children can not legally accept the waiver".........


All admissions, tickets and memberships are subject to these Terms and Conditions. Any person who receives a ticket or membership, regardless of whether that person was the purchaser, is subject to these Terms and Conditions.



this means if an adult buys a child a ticket, that adult has automatically accepted these terms and conditions for said child,



.
 
All admissions, tickets and memberships are subject to these Terms and Conditions. Any person who receives a ticket or membership, regardless of whether that person was the purchaser, is subject to these Terms and Conditions.
Yeah no. Children can't give informed consent. Show me some case law. Show me anywhere a child was legally bound to a waiver like that.

That's absurd.

The adults who buy the tickets maybe but kids? No. Not buying that for a millisecond.
 
I think it's worthwhile to see the T&Cs that everyone agrees to when they purchase admittance to an amusement park. It should give everyone pause that there are *some* risks involving any ride, even rides deemed 'safe.' I think it's also important to see what rights one may sign away by entering such a facility. How many people actually look at the backside of their tickets?

Whether this insane water ride was bad/faulty design or something else or a combo of factors will be determined. I'm no engineer and I wouldn't feel comfortable saying what the problem is/was. Speculation doesn't help; it will be accredited professionals working to figure out all that might have gone wrong with the ride and taking into account the variables, including the heights/weights/distribution of the humans who were on that raft, along with all the other variables.

BTW, it's not the children who give informed consent--it's their parent or guardian. It's right there in the T&Cs that the adult with the minor and who purchases the ticket for the minor is the one responsible/gives informed consent.
 
Posted at the ticket window, and upon entry to the park......

As i said previously, you are assuming the risks upon entry.....





Please carefully read these
Terms and Conditions. These Terms and Conditions contain terms, provisions, covenants, conditions, restrictions, disclaimers and limitations of liability to which you are subject when you purchase or receive a ticket or membership to, or are admitted to or enter or use, the park.


Terms and Conditions for Admissions, Tic
keting and Memberships


Each time you purchase a ticket or membership to, or are admitted to or enter or use, the park, you thereby acknowledge and agree that you have read, understood, accepted and agreed to be bound by these Terms and Conditions.



There are inherent and other risks associated with the use of or participation in or on any amusement attraction, ride or device or other recreational facilities located at the park. Each guest accepts the inherent and other risks associated with the use of or participation in or on any amusement attraction, ride or device or other recreational facilities located at the park, as well all other risks, all risks of which an ordinary prudent person is or should be aware and all risks of which the guest is warned pursuant to these Terms and Conditions, other park rules and regulations, other posted warnings, directions and instructions and attraction operator warnings, directions and instructions. In furtherance and not in limitation of the foregoing, each guest acknowledges and agrees to have read, understood and accepted, and to be bound by, the following statements:



  • I acknowledge, understand and agree there are inherent and other risks associated with the use of or participation in or on any amusement attraction, ride or device or other recreational facilities located at the park, as well other risks, risks of which an ordinary prudent person is or should be aware and risks of which I have been warned pursuant to these Terms and Conditions, other park rules and regulations, other posted warnings, directions and instructions and attraction operator warnings, directions and instructions.


  • I acknowledge, understand and agree that bodily or physical injury or harm, sometimes serious, or even death, may be caused by or arise or result from or be attributable to the use of or participation in or on any amusement attraction, ride or device or other recreational facilities located at the park.


  • I voluntarily accept and voluntarily assume the risk of bodily or physical injury or harm or death that may be caused by or arise or result from or be attributable to the use of or participation in or on any amusement attraction, ride or device or other recreational facilities located at the park.


  • In consideration of using any or all amusement attractions, rides or devices or other recreational facilities located at the park:
    • I voluntarily accept and voluntarily assume the risk of bodily or physical injury or harm or death that may be caused by or arise or result from or be attributable to the use of or participation in or on any amusement attraction, ride or device or other recreational facilities located at the park.
    • I agree not to bring any litigation or other legal action against the park and all park owners, operators and lessees, all owners / lessors or manufacturers / designers / distributors of real or personal property including attractions used in the operation of the park, and all of their respective owners, affiliates, management, managers, officers, employees, agents, contractors or representatives, if I am hurt or otherwise suffer any bodily or physical injury or harm or death while or from using any amusement attraction, ride or device or other recreational facilities at the park by reason of any bodily or physical injury or harm or death, including any that may be caused by or arise or result from or be attributable to any person’s negligence.
    • I understand that by my acceptance and assumption of risk of bodily or physical injury or harm or death that may be caused by or arise or result from or be attributable to the use of or participation in or on any amusement attraction, ride or device or other recreational facilities located at the park, I am waiving and releasing legal rights.
    • Normal operation of any attraction may be hazardous to those:
      • who are pregnant;
      • with heart conditions;
      • with neck or back problems;
      • subject to motion sickness; or
      • with other health problems that may make them more vulnerable to injury.The following people shall not use this ride: those under the influence of alcohol or drugs.




  • You are responsible to know your health and physical condition and limitations and the health and physical condition and limitations of any minor under your care or supervision. If you ride or use, or you permit any minors under your care or supervision to ride or use, any amusement attraction/ride, you or they do so at your or their own risk.
All admissions, tickets and memberships are subject to these Terms and Conditions. Any person who receives a ticket or membership, regardless of whether that person was the purchaser, is subject to these Terms and Conditions. No refund, credit or exchange will be issued because or of based on a failure to read these Terms and Conditions.


A violation of any park rule/regulation is cause for ejection without refund, credit or exchange. Guests that do not follow written, posted and stated warnings, directions and instructions may be asked to leave the park and may lose their right to future entry.

ALL SALES ARE FINAL. NO REFUNDS, CREDITS OR EXCHANGES. All sales of admissions, ticketing and memberships to the park, including for special or private events, are final. There are no refunds, credits or exchanges. When you use an admission ticket or a membership card to enter the park, you acknowledge, confirm and agree that services have been rendered.

And didn't we already confirm that those waivers are not worth the paper they're written on? It certainly doesn't excuse the owners and designers from putting profit above safety.


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Assumption of the risk is not a blanket defense that can be employed against anyone who knowingly goes on an amusement park ride. Patrons must be aware of the risks involved in order to assume them. So, for example, if a rider doesn't know about a loose screw in a roller coaster, that the ride operator received little or no training, or that the park never conducts safety inspections, the rider cannot have assumed the risks associated with those details.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/amusement-park-accidents-32457-2.html

*The riders could not have known the ride was designed by someone without the proper education, training, and credentials.

*The riders could not have known the safety testing during the building of the ride was by "Trial and error" and not industry standard.


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And didn't we already confirm that those waivers are not worth the paper they're written on? It certainly doesn't excuse the owners and designers from putting profit above safety.


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IMO
Yes, we did confirm the waivers do not prevent lawsuits at all. And it will likely be up to a jury to decide culpability in this case. I did some checking about it and the reason appears to be that state's laws override these "general waivers". All states are different of course and each state would have its own variations of things.

Their main purpose is still important IMO in that they make people really think hard if it was truly their own fault that they injured themselves or not before they jump into a lawsuit. So for that, I do think the waivers serve a valuable purpose. However, it does not mean people cannot or will not sue if they feel the place wronged them and caused their injury. They surely will in this case. Or settle out of court and be paid off before it even gets to a trial. Many articles have been written about the waivers.

Here is one attorney group's opinion on it.

"The good news these papers are just not valid as written, and a cursory review by an experienced personal injury attorney will confirm your rights are still preserved."

"
Other activities have significantly higher degrees of risk that we assume if we choose to participate. For example, I went white water rafting in North Carolina. I signed the required waiver of liability because I knew the risk of that sport. However, I am only assuming the risk of the expected potential dangers. I am not releasing the company from liability if they are negligent in maintaining the offered rafts or negligent in hiring, training, or overseeing the raft guides. Even though the “waiver” form stated the company could not be sued for “any reason,” the laws of most states consider such broad language to be void and of no legal effect."

Also
"children represent special cases in personal injury law"
"special rules for minors."

Finally
"So the next time you are presented with a “waiver” or “release,” you can rest assured the only risk you are taking are those that naturally result from the activity itself. Any injury caused by the negligence of a business or other individual is still subject only to “contributory” or “comparative negligence” rules of the State where the injury occurs"

http://rjrlaw.com/practice-areas/sc-accident/sc-personal-injury-liability-waivers/
 
Slightly off topic: I've watched with interest the cases of NASCAR fans who were injured in 2013. It seems all but one settled out of court, but the man with the worse injury (traumatic brain injury) isn't willing to take what NASCAR offered. He is suing but it is still in the court system, so no idea if he will prevail.
ETA: NASCAR tickets contain a disclaimer.
 
yikes, I am not defending the park, but I agree that patrons implicitly accept the terms and conditions in exchange for admittance. and IMO that ride had design flaws FWIW. And now I shall back out of this thread again. wowsers.
These terms are on almost any purchased ticket-planes, concerts, sporting events, etc. I have seen many waivers that specifically mention you agree not to sue even if the company or its employees are negligent. But, many, many people successfully sue anyway.
 
Yeah no. Children can't give informed consent. Show me some case law. Show me anywhere a child was legally bound to a waiver like that.

That's absurd.

The adults who buy the tickets maybe but kids? No. Not buying that for a millisecond.

He's been shown case law multiple times and apparently silly facts like that don't matter to him.

I'm practicing scrolling and rolling because I am so sick of the implication that this little boy or his family are to blame.


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Yeah, the parents and the 2 other occupants of the raft will likely win civil suits. Probably will settle out of court, as most civil cases do.
 
who exactly is "we"?

how long have all these "we" people had their law degrees for? And what law firm do they work for/at?

This law firm below is "Robert J Reeves P.C. Injury Criminal Family Law"

""So the next time you are presented with a “waiver” or “release,” you can rest assured the only risk you are taking are those that naturally result from the activity itself. Any injury caused by the negligence of a business or other individual is still subject only to “contributory” or “comparative negligence” rules of the State where the injury occurs""

http://rjrlaw.com/practice-areas/sc-accident/sc-personal-injury-liability-waivers/
 
He's been shown case law multiple times and apparently silly facts like that don't matter to him.

I'm practicing scrolling and rolling because I am so sick of the implication that this little boy or his family are to blame.


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Anyone blaming or even implying that the family or this boy is at fault.....GRRRRR. Yeah. I highly recommend the forum's ignore feature. Makes for much more pleasant scrolling. And then it's easier to resist the urge to engage in pointless "arguments."

I hate to say but I think if we hear any news on this...it's going to be a long time from now. I will be very curious to see if the ride reopens for the Spring/Summer 2017 season. Personally, I don't think it should unless it's totally redesigned by actual engineers and people who know what they are doing in designing and testing rides like this.
 

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