Kyron Horman Discussion Thread 2020 - 2022 - #2

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One of the many insinuations against Terri has to do with her parking at the two Fred Meyer stores she visited, the first one ca 9:00-9:15, the other ca 9:30-10:00. Here's a passage from the Rebecca Morris book Boy Missing:



From the same book:



So the implication is that Terri parked far away to prevent people and cameras from seeing what was inside the truck - Kyron, one would assume.

Back on August 11th 2010, the police released a flier with a set of images of a truck in various parking lots. A websleuther discovered embedded text to the two images from the Fred Meyer stores:



So I was curious just how far away these locations were from the store. I lined up the photos using Google Maps Street View as best as I could and marked the spots where Terri parked according to MCSO. First Fred Meyer at Imbrie/Cornelius Pass:


View attachment 369243

Next we have Fred Meyer at Walker Road:

View attachment 369244

I must say neither position is extremely distant to me, certainly not "as far from the stores' front doors as possible". There are many spots further away in both cases, especially Imbrie. Also, even with only half-full lots (as in my screenshots) you can see in the images that the areas where Terri parked are far from "deserted". Both places strike me as exactly the place you would park if you didn't want to be right in the thick of it, but also not too far away from the doors.

I think this can be chalked up to exaggeration.

Another interesting bit is that at both places, but Imbrie in particular, the distance would not shield the car from insight as customers could and would drive by on their way in and out. If a living Kyron was in the truck he would easily have been spotted when Terri and the baby were in the stores.

A dead Kyron in the truck comes with its own problems, including the fact that the police went over the truck and found nothing.
Neither parking spot bothers me in the least. I HATE parking in the angled spots and I will walk from the middle of nowhere to avoid that! So parking at the outer edge nearest the road? Yep. I do that ALL the time!! Don't care what the weather is. Those are easier to get in and out of without dealing with parking spot hover crafts (the ones waiting for you to move), or the ones who get so close up to you that you CAN'T move! And the other spot, in photo one, also one I'd do. I do it daily. I just don't like to be in the ones closest to the store where the crazy drivers are!
 
Neither parking spot bothers me in the least. I HATE parking in the angled spots and I will walk from the middle of nowhere to avoid that! So parking at the outer edge nearest the road? Yep. I do that ALL the time!! Don't care what the weather is. Those are easier to get in and out of without dealing with parking spot hover crafts (the ones waiting for you to move), or the ones who get so close up to you that you CAN'T move! And the other spot, in photo one, also one I'd do. I do it daily. I just don't like to be in the ones closest to the store where the crazy drivers are!

Agree, and I've added this to Kyron's discussion previously -- I don't really mind driving the long-bed crew cab truck, but parking that darn thing is a different story.

Plus, Mr. Laughing babies those big things. I literally send him a picture of the thing parked between the lines of two empty parking spaces at the farthest edge of the parking lot before I go into the business.

I typically drive a small Honda, parking his truck is stressful so yeah you bet that thing is way way out in the lot!

jmho ymmv lrr
 
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7/6/2023

  • Police investigating the case found Terri’s phone pinged around Highway 30, an area known in Oregon as a road less traveled.

It's interesting, back in the early days of the case the info was always that the ping was on Sauvie Island and Terri denied going there. An email from her friend was leaked, saying Terri claimed to have been on hey 30 and had no idea why the police were so fixated on the island. Desiree claims in the Morris book that this was a mistake by the MCSO, that they had initially believed the ping placed Terri on the island only to be proven wrong later. The tower wasn't even on the island.

To me it's another example of how Terri's story keeps getting confirmed whenever it can be.
 
Due to the location of the cell tower, law enforcement would have been remiss not to search Sauvie Island. There would have been a huge public outcry if at least some of those searches hadn't happened. Also, Terri had failed three polygraphs, so I don't think law enforcement was inclined to believe what she had to say in emails to friends.

Snipped quote Pg 73: According to detectives, at 11 a.m. on June 4, Terri's cell phone pinged off a tower near an island where two channels of the Willamette River meet the Columbia River and flow one hundred miles to the Pacific Ocean. ... Terri told police the ping was because of the route she took while trying to quiet [baby K]. The MCSO narrowed the ping to within a mile of the cell phone tower. To the west were roads off Highway 30 and deep woods, as well as roads near Kaine's house and the school. To the east were Sauvie and thousands of acres of marsh and waterways.
"Boy Missing · The Search for Kyron Horman" by Rebecca Morris

Everyone knows that they searched and searched Sauvie Island, but they also searched the areas that fall within the tower's radius on the other side of Highway 30. A concern I have is that she may not have had her cell phone with her that day and the ping may have been a planned attempt to mislead. We know that DeDe left her phone in her vehicle that day.

And then there is the whole thread here at Websleuths devoted to people eventually found in areas that had been previously searched.


Snipped quote: [January 30, 2011] The locations that will be combed today are remote, with residences few and far between. On Saturday, a heavy fog shrouded the wooded area for most of the early morning, and few cars passed. Ground searches will be directed to specific turnouts, trailheads or areas that a vehicle could pull in, and then conduct a 300-foot radius search of the sites, depending on the steepness of the terrain.
"You could see the hazards we're going to face," Herron said, stepping over discarded screens, wood filled with nails, broken glass and shotgun shells at one gated logging road off Northwest Skyline Boulevard, south of Rocky Point Road. The spot is about 20 to 22 miles from Skyline Elementary School.

Search for Kyron Horman resumes today north and west of Portland

Snipped quote: [January 31, 2011] The search area focused on several parcels of private property, mostly logging land, along Northwest Skyline Boulevard -- between Rocky Point Road and Logie Trail Road -- and around the Dixie Mountain area.
Kyron Horman search starts with optimism, ends in frustration

Snipped quote: [March 28, 2011] Sheriff's spokesman Lt. Mark Matsushima said search personnel is covering an area near Northwest Dixie Mountain Road, north of where they searched Saturday about four miles north of North Plains.
70 help in Kyron Horman search near the North Plains area (update)
 
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For discussion purposes only, Desiree explained that she believes Terri's choice of parking spots had nothing to do with an effort to avoid a ding. Terri told police that Kaine liked to park far from the store entrances so she liked to do as Kaine did. Kaine found that to be a scoff-worthy statement.

Snipped quote Pg 57: At 9:40 a.m. she was on video leaving another Fred Meyer, on Southwest Walker Road. Police studied the footage from the stores. It was curious. The outdoor surveillance cameras showed Terri driving and Kayla in the child seat in the back. Due to the angle of the camera, it was impossible to tell if anyone else was in the vehicle and if Kyron’s booster seat was empty. Terri parked Kaine’s truck away from the stores’ entrances. Not in an effort to avoid a ding from another car; there were plenty of places to park to avoid that. She parked in areas as far from the stores front doors as possible, deserted areas with no other vehicles nearby. And no cameras. She told police that Kaine liked to park a long way from store entrances, so she did too. Kaine scoffed when police asked him if that was true.
Boy Missing · The Search for Kyron Horman" by Rebecca Morris

The parking spot at the Fred Meyer, Beaverton, is the more interesting to me of the two spots.

3 Kyron Horman 2nd Fred Meyer F250 10AM.jpeg


 
Due to the location of the cell tower, law enforcement would have been remiss not to search Sauvie Island. There would have been a huge public outcry if at least some of those searches hadn't happened. Also, Terri had failed three polygraphs, so I don't think law enforcement was inclined to believe what she had to say in emails to friends.

If they factored in the polygraphs in their decision making, that's clear evidence of incompetence, and goes a long way to explain why they've failed so miserably for the past 13 years.

Remember, Gary Ridgway passed his polygraph, while Bill Wegerle (whose wife was later proven to have been killed by BTK) failed his. These idiotic toys are not just useless, they are actively damaging society.

Everyone knows that they searched and searched Sauvie Island, but they also searched the areas that fall within the tower's radius on the other side of Highway 30.

But they went to Sauvie Island (after only having searched an expanding area around the school) on June 11th, a week after the abduction, while they didn't search the mainland side until January 2011, almost eight months after. I suspect they realized their misinterpretation of the pings sometime in or after December 2010.

Snipped quote Pg 57: At 9:40 a.m. she was on video leaving another Fred Meyer, on Southwest Walker Road. Police studied the footage from the stores. It was curious. The outdoor surveillance cameras showed Terri driving and Kayla in the child seat in the back. Due to the angle of the camera, it was impossible to tell if anyone else was in the vehicle and if Kyron’s booster seat was empty. Terri parked Kaine’s truck away from the stores’ entrances. Not in an effort to avoid a ding from another car; there were plenty of places to park to avoid that. She parked in areas as far from the stores front doors as possible, deserted areas with no other vehicles nearby. And no cameras. She told police that Kaine liked to park a long way from store entrances, so she did too. Kaine scoffed when police asked him if that was true.
Boy Missing · The Search for Kyron Horman" by Rebecca Morris

Just pointing out the facts, flyers were handed out months after Desiree supposedly was told the above, and on that flyer people were asked about the truck at the Walker Road Fred Meyer at 10:00 am, which means the 9:40 am time given by Rebecca Morris in the quote above is wrong. Terri was inside the Fred Meyer, even talking to a witness between 9:30 and 10:00.

The parking spot at the Fred Meyer, Beaverton, is the more interesting to me of the two spots.

View attachment 433613


Yes, it's remarkable how actually seeing pictures of where Terri parked show just how exaggerated the Morris book is. Look, there's a car right beside where Terri parked, even at what seems like less than busy hour. How is this strange again?
 
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If they factored in the polygraphs in their decision making, that's clear evidence of incompetence, and goes a long way to explain why they've failed so miserably for the past 13 years.

Rememberm Gary Ridgway passed his polygraph, while Bill Wegerle (whose wife was later proven to have been killed by BTK) failed his. These idiotic toys are not just useless, they are actively damaging society.



But they went to Sauvie Island (after only having searched an expanding area around the school) on June 11th, a week after the abduction, while they didn't search the mainland side until January 2011, almost eight months after. I suspect they realized their misinterpretation of the pings sometime in or after December 2010.



Just pointing out the facts, flyers were handed out months after Desiree supposedly was told the above, and on that flyer people were asked about the truck at the Walker Road Fred Meyer at 10:00 am, which means the 9:40 am time given by Rebecca Morris in the quote above is wrong. Terri was inside the Fred Meyer, even talking to a witness between 9:30 and 10:00.



Yes, it's remarkable how actually seeing pictures of where Terri parked show just how exaggerated the Morris book is. Look, there's a car right beside where Terri parked, even at what seems like less than busy hour. How is this strange again?
Plus there's a side walk right above it. If concealment was Terri's reason for parking so far away from the store entrance, there was a risk someone on foot may have been able to see into the truck from above. Maybe she reasoned is was less riskier to park there than other spaces, but there was still that chance.
I personally like parking away from the door and near a carriage return. I always return my shopping cart.
Also, when I worked at a grocery store, we were required to park along the perimeter and leave the closer spots to the door for customers, so there's a possibility she would have also taken a risk by parking in a spot like that, that an employee might park nearby. I concede that parking rule may not apply to all retail establishments, but back in the day, in my neck of the woods, it was customary for employees to do this.
I just find it difficult to attribute a nefarious motive for her parking where she did. It's not like the parking spot was a half mile away in some bushes.
 
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I did a quick map to show the areas where they were searching that I mentioned above. All the dark green pins are at the top of the roads mentioned in the articles. The small light green dots are the roads leading down from the mountains.

Just to put the area in perspective, I added Kaine's house, the school, the lavender farm, and a possible location for the cell tower. There is a tower at that location but it's never been confirmed which tower Terri's phone pinged.

Kyron Horman Mountain area searches (2).jpeg
11536 NW Skyline Blvd · 11536 NW Skyline Blvd, Portland, OR 97231
 
The flyers were released and distributed by MCSO in quick succession in relation to how events were unfolding.

The first flyer featuring two pictures of Terri, one of Kaine's F250, and one of Kyron was released on June 18, 2010. Law enforcement allowed people a few days to return the flyer understanding it takes time for information to be gathered.

However, fourteen days after her stepson "disappeared", law enforcement had released a flyer asking if anyone at the school on June 4, 2010, had seen Terri, Kyron, or the F250 between 8 AM and 4 PM. Clearly, law enforcement was gathering information.

During the 18th of June and the 8th or 9th of August, Terri's husband had taken their daughter, filed for divorce, and moved to a hidden location. Her friend, DeDe, moved into Kaine's house. Terri hired a "lawyer extraordinaire" and sent her sexting partner Kaine's secret address. DeDe purchased at least one burner phone and kindly drove Terri to lawyer appointments.

Law enforcement discovered that DeDe had left her place of work and was unaccounted for during the same time period that Terri said she was driving the baby around unmemorable "hilly" roads.

Law enforcement searched DeDe's condo, her Aunt's property in Helevtia, and the lavender farm where she was working.

DeDe was subpoenaed to testify before a grand jury. One picture law enforcement used on the flyer was a picture of her taken as she left the courthouse after not being called as a witness.

The second flyer featuring three pictures of Kaine's F250, three pictures of Terri, and three pictures of DeDe was released on August 8 or 9, 2010. In the flyer, law enforcement asked residents of the NW Germantown Road loop area if anyone had seen Terri, DeDe, or the F250 in the general vicinity between approximately 9:45 AM and 1:00 PM.

Days later, law enforcement released the third flyer during a press conference on August 11, 2010. They were asking for the public's assistance, giving approximate times and locations with four focuses.

1st focus: Had anyone seen the F250 at Skyline School "between approximately 8:15 a.m. and 8:45 a.m." parked at certain locations?

2nd focus: Did anyone see any person in or around the vehicle at those locations during that approximate time period?

3rd focus: (This focus had two parts).

The first part: Fred Meyer, Hillsboro at "approximately 9 AM;" and Fred Meyer, Beaverton at "approximately 10 AM."

The second part: "Skyline Blvd. between approximately Springville Road and Newberry Road, including on or around Germantown Road and/or old Germantown Road at "approximately 10:15 a.m. to 11:30 a.m." (Where DeDe worked).

4th focus: Did anyone park their vehicle on the south side of the school parking lot before 8:45 a.m?

Law enforcement was seeking information at the times they issued each flyer and all times referred to by them were approximate. The information they gathered would eventually fill in the timeline which law enforcement has never released. (Maybe we get a hint of the truth from Desiree).

As well, law enforcement has surveillance videos from each Fred Meyer store.

And AL says she ran into Terri with the baby sick in her arms between 9:30 AM and 10 AM. I don't hear a firm time, there. How can we be sure it wasn't earlier than 9:30 AM or later than 10 AM? If she has firm proof of the time, I have never heard it. Maybe there is CCTV footage.

Justice for Kyron!
 
The flyers were released and distributed by MCSO in quick succession in relation to how events were unfolding.

The first flyer featuring two pictures of Terri, one of Kaine's F250, and one of Kyron was released on June 18, 2010. Law enforcement allowed people a few days to return the flyer understanding it takes time for information to be gathered.

However, fourteen days after her stepson "disappeared", law enforcement had released a flyer asking if anyone at the school on June 4, 2010, had seen Terri, Kyron, or the F250 between 8 AM and 4 PM. Clearly, law enforcement was gathering information.

During the 18th of June and the 8th or 9th of August, Terri's husband had taken their daughter, filed for divorce, and moved to a hidden location. Her friend, DeDe, moved into Kaine's house. Terri hired a "lawyer extraordinaire" and sent her sexting partner Kaine's secret address. DeDe purchased at least one burner phone and kindly drove Terri to lawyer appointments.

There was a third friend too, KSR, who also bought a burner phone. Of course, the point is that the police had attempted a sting operation to incriminate Terri, and had given Kaine information that had caused him to leave with their daughter. What's interesting to me is that if DeDe and Terri having burner phones is a sign of nefarious activities, what about KSR? She was never suspected by anyone, so if DeDe and Terri were in it together, why would they include her?

We're already defying reason if we're assuming DeDe participated in the abduction, since she would have every reason to stay away from Terri. She hadn't been a close friend before, so if she hadn't openly moved in to support her friend, she would never have even been on the police radar. And if burner phones featured in the abduction it makes even less sense that they not only got new ones but included a third, innocent party in their group.

Law enforcement discovered that DeDe had left her place of work and was unaccounted for during the same time period that Terri said she was driving the baby around unmemorable "hilly" roads.

For small values of "same time period". 11:30 is the original time given for her "disappearance" but that didn't really fit with Terri, who was signed in at the gym at 11:39. I've always found it fascinating that they first say that DeDe "abruptly left" at 11:30 and then say she wasn't accounted for at 10:00. My guess is that she was at the farm the whole time, working at a distant area from 10, and that the attempts to get her in for lunch at 11:30 were a bit less intensive than they would later try to imply. Probably a few shouts from the door and a call to her cell (left in her car).

Law enforcement searched DeDe's condo, her Aunt's property in Helevtia, and the lavender farm where she was working.

And found nothing.

DeDe was subpoenaed to testify before a grand jury. One picture law enforcement used on the flyer was a picture of her taken as she left the courthouse after not being called as a witness.

The thing that gets me is that after all the fingerpointing, they never seem to have a clear idea what DeDe was supposed to have done. And don't get me started on the ridiculous sting operation request. They didn't learn anything from the first fiasco, did they?

For a long time, they pursued her, feeling quite sure that she might have played a role in Kyron’s disappearance. They are now pretty sure that is not true, though they believe she might have some knowledge.

[...]

DeDe asserted that she had been approached recently by law enforcement about trying to get Terri on the phone to see if she would incriminate herself.

Several people were dismissive of that because the DA’s office has told the sheriff’s office not to try and do sting operations on people who are already lawyered up – and Terri fits into that category.

As it turns out, it turns out DeDe was playing it straight – she had been approached and she turned them down.

It was a development that left several people familiar with the investigation shaking their heads. Given DeDe’s believed closeness to Terri, was it really worth the risk?

The second flyer featuring three pictures of Kaine's F250, three pictures of Terri, and three pictures of DeDe was released on August 8 or 9, 2010. In the flyer, law enforcement asked residents of the NW Germantown Road loop area if anyone had seen Terri, DeDe, or the F250 in the general vicinity between approximately 9:45 AM and 1:00 PM.

Days later, law enforcement released the third flyer during a press conference on August 11, 2010. They were asking for the public's assistance, giving approximate times and locations with four focuses.

1st focus: Had anyone seen the F250 at Skyline School "between approximately 8:15 a.m. and 8:45 a.m." parked at certain locations?

2nd focus: Did anyone see any person in or around the vehicle at those locations during that approximate time period?

3rd focus: (This focus had two parts).

The first part: Fred Meyer, Hillsboro at "approximately 9 AM;" and Fred Meyer, Beaverton at "approximately 10 AM."

The second part: "Skyline Blvd. between approximately Springville Road and Newberry Road, including on or around Germantown Road and/or old Germantown Road at "approximately 10:15 a.m. to 11:30 a.m." (Where DeDe worked).

And this means that the 9:40 time given in the Morris book has to be wrong. Why would they ask about a truck at a time when it would have been gone for twenty minutes? Approximation is one thing, but here they had (according to Desiree) already got the timestamps from CCTV, so the approximate time should have been 9:30 if they actually wanted sightings of the truck. Similarly, the trip along the roads here starts at 10:15. If they started at 9:40 as Desiree claims in the Morris book, that's half an hour of time that they're just not asking about.

Law enforcement was seeking information at the times they issued each flyer and all times referred to by them were approximate. The information they gathered would eventually fill in the timeline which law enforcement has never released. (Maybe we get a hint of the truth from Desiree).

As well, law enforcement has surveillance videos from each Fred Meyer store.

And AL says she ran into Terri with the baby sick in her arms between 9:30 AM and 10 AM. I don't hear a firm time, there. How can we be sure it wasn't earlier than 9:30 AM or later than 10 AM? If she has firm proof of the time, I have never heard it. Maybe there is CCTV footage.

It's not later than 10, since she was on her way to a book store before 10, and before 9:30 Terri would barely have had time to leave Fred Meyer at Imbrie (receipt at 9:12 as the earliest point of departure, likely minutes later) followed by a 10 minute drive, parking and entering the store. Terri staying and talking with the witness, as well as buying things and quickly going into the dry cleaners, it all adds up, making 9:40 unrealistic even without the corroboration from the posters.

I think Desiree stopped getting more than basic information from MCSO a long time ago, probably around the time she decided to do her civil suit. She's relying on old, barely remembered, possibly mistaken information, and it shows.
 
Plus there's a side walk right above it. If concealment was Terri's reason for parking so far away from the store entrance, there was a risk someone on foot may have been able to see into the truck from above. Maybe she reasoned is was less riskier to park there than other spaces, but there was still that chance.
I personally like parking away from the door and near a carriage return. I always return my shopping cart.
Also, when I worked at a grocery store, we were required to park along the perimeter and leave the closer spots to the door for customers, so there's a possibility she would have also taken a risk by parking in a spot like that, that an employee might park nearby. I concede that parking rule may not apply to all retail establishments, but back in the day, in my neck of the woods, it was customary for employees to do this.
I just find it difficult to attribute a nefarious motive for her parking where she did. It's not like the parking spot was a half mile away in some bushes.
I lean towards Terri being involved in Kyron's disappearance but I have no faith in lie detector tests and IMO good detectives use them only as a tool to get an idea if someone is telling the truth, not the end-all be-all that too many detectives make decisions on about a person's guilt or innocence. Sociopaths can and do pass polygraphs - we know that- and innocent people fail them- we know that. that is why they are not admissible in court- they are not reliable truth-telling machines.
 
For discussion purposes only, Desiree explained that she believes Terri's choice of parking spots had nothing to do with an effort to avoid a ding. Terri told police that Kaine liked to park far from the store entrances so she liked to do as Kaine did. Kaine found that to be a scoff-worthy statement.

Snipped quote Pg 57: At 9:40 a.m. she was on video leaving another Fred Meyer, on Southwest Walker Road. Police studied the footage from the stores. It was curious. The outdoor surveillance cameras showed Terri driving and Kayla in the child seat in the back. Due to the angle of the camera, it was impossible to tell if anyone else was in the vehicle and if Kyron’s booster seat was empty. Terri parked Kaine’s truck away from the stores’ entrances. Not in an effort to avoid a ding from another car; there were plenty of places to park to avoid that. She parked in areas as far from the stores front doors as possible, deserted areas with no other vehicles nearby. And no cameras. She told police that Kaine liked to park a long way from store entrances, so she did too. Kaine scoffed when police asked him if that was true.
Boy Missing · The Search for Kyron Horman" by Rebecca Morris

The parking spot at the Fred Meyer, Beaverton, is the more interesting to me of the two spots.

View attachment 433613

Not too far from NW Old Germantown Road is it ...
 
Happy belated Birthday, Kyron! I definitely was thinking of you - just didn't think I needed to post birthday wishes.

1694725572648.png
 
Some movement in this case would be nice. Hopefully, the current investigators are more in tune with the FBI and will move away from Terri as a suspect. I don't see any other way this case gets solved.
 
For some reason they can't seem to move away from her because nothing points to an alibi or to her innocence. mOO

Tunnel vision is sadly a hard thing to break out of. I would think Kyron disappearing between 8:45 and 10, and Terri having no opportunity to kill or otherwise hurt him, moving through public spaces and being seen in public without Kyron in multiple places, as well as no reliable witness having seen her leave the school with him, and at least one witness publicly stating that he saw her leave without him, would be enough.

And I think it was. I don't think the MCSO has operated under the theory that Terri herself took Kyron from the school for a long time, but rather that it was an accomplice. Her schedule simply doesn't allow for anything else. But they also haven't been able to find said "accomplice" in 13 years - probably because he isn't an accomplice but the actual culprit, no connection to Terri.
 

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