Kyron Horman's mom's civil suit against Terri Horman

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That is because this is a newer law, I believe. It is called "Aaron's Law", and it was passed in 2005 as a result of Sean Cruz's efforts after his children were taken by his ex-wife. Aaron is the name of his son who eventually died.

To date, Oregon is the first and only state to have this type of law that allows for a civil lawsuit for custodial interference. That also explains the two year statute of limitations. This is truly a landmark case. I am so pleased that Desiree is doing this! Not only that, but her lawyer has a stellar reputation; he is one of the best in Oregon.

Yes I agree Helen. Last night on the late news I heard a commentator say it will be something to watch the 'wrangling' between these two very top notch lawyers as the suit progresses. That isn't exact, but close.
 
Respectfully <snipped>. The point that I was trying to make with my post is that divorce court is not the appropriate venue to extract information in a criminal matter from one of the parties. So far, Kaine's efforts have been fruitless because TH's attorneys know better than to let her (possibly) incriminate herself should she say anthing. So, she has been mum and will likely continue to evoke her 5th Amendment Rights. DH and I discussed this last night, and we both feel that the judge would likely not be amused by Kaine's comment.

Likewise, I think the reaction to Desiree's lawsuit will be met with the same opposition and that little headway will be made into what happened to Kyron. TH's attorneys will not allow her to become the target of yet another fishing expedition. Most of the talking heads said as much when Desiree's lawsuit was discussed on several TV programs last night. :moo:

Hi Bette, I was a bit shocked when I heard on the news that TH's lawyer did make a comment about this suit. I thought 'silence' was his golden rule of law! IMO And what he said, that he's now declining comment on the suit, amazed me. It wasn't in quotation marks, but the reporter made it sound like it was a specific response made by Mr Houze.
 
Okay this might be an obvious question....But unless the judge throws out the suit, then there will be a trial for this, right? Any guesses on when that might be?
 
Okay this might be an obvious question....But unless the judge throws out the suit, then there will be a trial for this, right? Any guesses on when that might be?

Often times civil cases will not go to trial because a settlement has been reached pre-trial. In fact, in my experience that is usually what happens.

Since Desiree is not truly interested in the money, just answers on what happened to Kyron, I doubt this case will be settled unless Kyron or his body are found. If TH does not fess up, or his body is not discovered through other investigative means, then I would expect this to go to trial. JMO.
 
Hi Bette, I was a bit shocked when I heard on the news that TH's lawyer did make a comment about this suit. I thought 'silence' was his golden rule of law! IMO And what he said, that he's now declining comment on the suit, amazed me. It wasn't in quotation marks, but the reporter made it sound like it was a specific response made by Mr Houze.

I would be very surprised if Houze defends this case for her. I guess he could, but he primarily handles criminal matters, not civil. She might have to get a different litigation attorney to defend her, as her other attorney, Peter Bunch, specializes in family law. But you can be sure they will both keep very close tabs on this case and will confer regularly with any additional attorney brought on to defend this case.
 
I have a question to anyone who might know the answer. If Desiree wins the lawsuit and Terri can't pay, would she go to jail?
 
I have a question to anyone who might know the answer. If Desiree wins the lawsuit and Terri can't pay, would she go to jail?

No. And that's why almost no one sues on "principle". Because if the defendant can't pay, they can't pay and that's that. You can't get blood out of a turnip.


So usually lawyers aren't willing to take on civil lawsuits just to prove a point. If they aren't suing someone with deep pockets, the lawyer doesn't get paid.
 
Even if Desiree's attorney's can't get a hold of a lot of the info LE have, there is still a lot of interesting stuff that could come out when people who know stuff testify under oath. Dede, Terri's burner phone friends, the landscaper, Skyline staff, doctor's office staff, any other friends or relatives that Terri may have confided in, Michael Cook...I'm sure Desiree and Kaine can come up with a lengthy list of people to subpoena.

There was one thing Kaine said that's stuck with me...he talked about Terri's tendency to parcel out what she's up to so nobody gets the full story. If they can get all those people talking maybe it will present a somewhat complete picture.
 
No. And that's why almost no one sues on "principle". Because if the defendant can't pay, they can't pay and that's that. You can't get blood out of a turnip.


So usually lawyers aren't willing to take on civil lawsuits just to prove a point. If they aren't suing someone with deep pockets, the lawyer doesn't get paid.

It is possible Desiree and her attorney have made an agreement that is not contingency based. I'm sure her lawyer knows Terri is not likely to ever pay a dime. Desiree is probably willing to pay all the costs, and a hourly or flat fee on top of that to get info.

While Terri has no money or job now, it is likely she is the sole heir to her parents' estate, and they are getting elderly. I know they had to refinance their home in order to come up with Houze's and Bunch's fees, so there probably won't be much to inherit. If Desiree gets a judgment against Terri, then her parents will no doubt make James and probably the baby as the heirs instead of Terri. She would then lose her financial support once they die and really be penniless. She will have to depend on James or some new male sucker to support her as she seems entirely unwilling to go get a job and support herself.
 
How can a person be compelled to talk? If she doesn't want to, they can't force words to come from her mouth.

I also wonder how they can compel TH to tell the whereabouts of Kyron if she doesn't actually know.

It can be argued that LE and DY have enough proof of TH's involvement to convince them of her guilt & whatnot, but until I get to see some of this proof, I am actually trying to keep an open mind, and since I haven't come across any evidence that proves to me that TH was the person responsible for taking Kyron from Skyline, I am not convinced she did it.
 
How can a person be compelled to talk? If she doesn't want to, they can't force words to come from her mouth.

I also wonder how they can compel TH to tell the whereabouts of Kyron if she doesn't actually know.

It can be argued that LE and DY have enough proof of TH's involvement to convince them of her guilt & whatnot, but until I get to see some of this proof, I am actually trying to keep an open mind, and since I haven't come across any evidence that proves to me that TH was the person responsible for taking Kyron from Skyline, I am not convinced she did it.

There are tons of evidence - we just haven't seen all of it. There was a murder-for-hire plot the police had to explain to Kaine so that they would believe he might also be in danger. The court documents for Kaine and Terri's divorce mentioned hundreds of text messages and *advertiser censored* pictures of Terri. After Kaine got custody of his daughter, Terri had a relationship with a guy and asked him to lie for her under oath. On and on and on. ..

Horman vs. Horman Legal Document
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

The reason Desiree didn't sue the school is that the school doesn't know what happened to Kyron, but she believes Terri does!

This isn't about money at all. This isn't about getting rich off of Terri. They know she hasn't got any money - but they want to intimidate her.

And if Terri doesn't talk, her friends will still get dragged into court and maybe one of them will say something new or let something slip out this time. What they want is information about Kyron and what Terri was doing and saying around that time. They need a break in the case and this is a brilliant way to force everything into the light.
 
I wish that there was a "really like" button here. Your post just summed up my thoughts about this latest civil case filing so very nicely. Thanks!

Thanks too Helen. There are so many wonderful posters here, all passionate about Kyron and wanting him found and Justice meted for him.
 
For me, all you need to know is that a mother has not seen her toddler, now preschooler, in two years because to do so she'd have to waive her 5th amendment rights. There is just no reasonable explanation for that I can think of. Granted, it's just me, but I can't imagine not seeing my beloved baby girl for not.even.one.second in TWO YEARS. Honestly, I think most mothers would voluntarily go to prison for a period of time than do that.
 
How can a person be compelled to talk? If she doesn't want to, they can't force words to come from her mouth.

I also wonder how they can compel TH to tell the whereabouts of Kyron if she doesn't actually know.

It can be argued that LE and DY have enough proof of TH's involvement to convince them of her guilt & whatnot, but until I get to see some of this proof, I am actually trying to keep an open mind, and since I haven't come across any evidence that proves to me that TH was the person responsible for taking Kyron from Skyline, I am not convinced she did it.
I sort of agree. If I had to place a bet, I'd bet on Terri. I certainly think there is a "preponderance of evidence." However, I am well aware of the limitations on what I know with certainty in this case.
I also am an Occam's razor subscriber. The simplest explanation for what happened to Kyron is that Terri killed him. Given the landscape near the school, it just wouldn't be that hard to hide a body, especially since the murder was likely premeditated. I lived in Portland, I know how thick vegetation can be. She may have dug a grave in advance like Alyssa Bustamante did in the murder of Elizabeth Olten. Or she may have been prepared with a way to weight his body for a water disposal. (my apologies for frankness.)


It is possible Desiree and her attorney have made an agreement that is not contingency based. I'm sure her lawyer knows Terri is not likely to ever pay a dime. Desiree is probably willing to pay all the costs, and a hourly or flat fee on top of that to get info.

While Terri has no money or job now, it is likely she is the sole heir to her parents' estate, and they are getting elderly. I know they had to refinance their home in order to come up with Houze's and Bunch's fees, so there probably won't be much to inherit. If Desiree gets a judgment against Terri, then her parents will no doubt make James and probably the baby as the heirs instead of Terri. She would then lose her financial support once they die and really be penniless. She will have to depend on James or some new male sucker to support her as she seems entirely unwilling to go get a job and support herself.

Maybe Desiree, or Desiree and the attorney are going to write a book eventually to help offset costs. (As far as Terri doing the same, if the lawsuit is successful against her, the judge may not only award monetary damages, but may even specifically rule that Terri may never profit from her involvement in the case. (right now, there's nothing stopping her from writing a book called "If I Did It." and perhaps making a profit. (except that OJ might sue her if she ripped off his title))

For me, all you need to know is that a mother has not seen her toddler, now preschooler, in two years because to do so she'd have to waive her 5th amendment rights. There is just no reasonable explanation for that I can think of. Granted, it's just me, but I can't imagine not seeing my beloved baby girl for not.even.one.second in TWO YEARS. Honestly, I think most mothers would voluntarily go to prison for a period of time than do that.
Yeah, this may be the single most compelling factor convincing me of her guilt. It certainly speaks to her twisted priorities. Regardless of her guilt or innocence, she clearly doesn't want to risk her freedom to see baby K. The fact that she demonstrates so little care about being separated from her daughter, is evidence to me of sociopathic qualities, which further supports my belief that she is guilty.

What on earth do her parents think or say to her about it?! I can't imagine what I'd do in their situation. She is their daughter. Perhaps she has convinced them of her innocence. <shrug> Some folks who follow this case post that they believe she's innocent, I assume most of them don't know her personally. If strangers believe she's innocent, then I can sure see people who love her and are close to her being convinced too. (But not me. I'm pretty sure she did it)
 
Respectfully <snipped>. The point that I was trying to make with my post is that divorce court is not the appropriate venue to extract information in a criminal matter from one of the parties. So far, Kaine's efforts have been fruitless because TH's attorneys know better than to let her (possibly) incriminate herself should she say anthing. So, she has been mum and will likely continue to evoke her 5th Amendment Rights. DH and I discussed this last night, and we both feel that the judge would likely not be amused by Kaine's comment.

Likewise, I think the reaction to Desiree's lawsuit will be met with the same opposition and that little headway will be made into what happened to Kyron. TH's attorneys will not allow her to become the target of yet another fishing expedition. Most of the talking heads said as much when Desiree's lawsuit was discussed on several TV programs last night. :moo:

I'm not sure why divorce court would be an inappropriate place to fish for information about the missing child of the divorcing couple - custody issues are settled in divorce court, as are allegations of sexual or physical abuse (which are also criminal matters) against the children involved - these issues of family misconduct are PART of the divorce and custody issues - so why wouldn't it also be appropriate to question allegations of the kidnap and murder of the children involved? And the judge's personal feelings of amusement or lack thereof should have zero to do with anyone's attempts to find Kyron's remains, nor can I see how it would affect Kaine's divorce petition. So he has an unamused judge signing off on the dissolution of his marriage - so what?

In any case, if there was even a 0.0000001% chance that Terri would trade information for the potential to have a relationship with her baby, of course they should have gone for it. And if she keeps pleading the 5th, so be it. At least Desiree is within her rights to pursue it, and her attorney will do his best to subpoena information - that is the important part. They are using the legal channels open to them to SEEK information and justice. I'm glad they don't have the defeatist attitude that if they suspect Terri might plead the 5th, they won't even bother trying. I can't imagine any humane person writing off their missing child because a judge MIGHT be unamused or because the potential murderer MIGHT plead the 5th.

How can a person be compelled to talk? If she doesn't want to, they can't force words to come from her mouth.

I also wonder how they can compel TH to tell the whereabouts of Kyron if she doesn't actually know.

It can be argued that LE and DY have enough proof of TH's involvement to convince them of her guilt & whatnot, but until I get to see some of this proof, I am actually trying to keep an open mind, and since I haven't come across any evidence that proves to me that TH was the person responsible for taking Kyron from Skyline, I am not convinced she did it.

As they said in the press conference, they are putting pressure on Terri by these requests. Clearly a kidnapper and murderer is not going to obey an authority telling her to give information about her crime. If they were honest enough to follow that kind of legal direction, they wouldn't have murdered a child, lied and then kept quiet about the crime for years in the first place. So no, I don't think they expect Terri to obey a legal order to confess the location of Kyron or his remains to them.

My impression is that this pressure is part of the same pressure started by LE when they uncovered whatever evidence led them to putting Terri's face and vehicle descriptions on posters with public requests for information about her location and actions on the morning Kyron disappeared. And that pressure continued with the public press conferences in which Desiree and Kaine were allowed to share with the media that LE had shown them emails and documents that convinced them Terri was guilty. And that pressure continued further with the removal of Terri from her home and her baby. And the release of her sexual texts after her baby was taken from her. And with the posters put up near her parents' home that urged people to question her about Kyron. And now the law suit that might expose more of her emails, texts and actions, and which will continue to publicize her face under headlines that urge her to lead grieving parents to their child's remains.

My assumption is that it is believed that Kyron is the only child Terri has kidnapped and/or murdered, and that she might possibly be emotionally affected by her actions, and therefore she MIGHT be susceptible to mentally cracking under all of this pressure and might not be able to keep the mental breakdown to herself, and maybe finally, under extreme stress, she might get drunk or crazed enough to let something slip to someone. And that finally LE could use that thread to start to unravel the truth.

I don't think it's a bad plan.
 
It occurred to me that it might be much more useful for Desiree to sue Multnomah (sp) county to compel them to share their findings. If what Desiree is after are answers, she'd stand a better chance of seeing the totality of the evidence, and furthering the cause by seeing what LE has, IMHO. Terri's not going to say a thing.
 
There is the possibility that a civil trial will uncover evidence LE doesn't have. Witnesses testifying under oath is like them being re-interviewed by law enforcement. And Desiree's attorneys can provide a fresh set of eyes. Maybe they'll come up with a perspective LE hasn't thought of. I do think it's possible that a civil trial could provide the impetus for some kind of criminal charge to be filed against Terri.

I hope there are cameras in the courtroom if it does go to trial. Anyone know the possibility of that in the appropriate civil court?
 
Okay this might be an obvious question....But unless the judge throws out the suit, then there will be a trial for this, right? Any guesses on when that might be?

There was a question asked of the attorney after he made his statement but I couldn't hear the exhchange. Maybe someone else heard it but I though it was something like:

"When do you expect it to go to trial?"

Answer: "If she doesn't cooperate (or something like that)... in a year. If she responds, it'll be less than that"

I wish I could rewind but I watched it online instead of taping it. Any locals tape it??

Edit: Watching the raw footage now to see if I can find it: http://www.kgw.com/video/featured-videos/Raw-Kyron-Hormans-mom-announces-lawsuit-156443865.html

Well shoot, it only goes to the end of Desiree's statement and not the attorney or the question and answer.
 
Even if Desiree's attorney's can't get a hold of a lot of the info LE have, there is still a lot of interesting stuff that could come out when people who know stuff testify under oath. Dede, Terri's burner phone friends, the landscaper, Skyline staff, doctor's office staff, any other friends or relatives that Terri may have confided in, Michael Cook...I'm sure Desiree and Kaine can come up with a lengthy list of people to subpoena.

There was one thing Kaine said that's stuck with me...he talked about Terri's tendency to parcel out what she's up to so nobody gets the full story. If they can get all those people talking maybe it will present a somewhat complete picture.

Yes, exactly. I'd like to add one more person to those who can be subpoenaed in DY's civil suit: Kaine, and any documents, electronic or otherwise he might have
 
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