LA - Hurricane Katrina, Doctors Euthanized Patients?, 2005

[Pepper]

I don't know the details of how sick these patients were, but I agree with an earlier post that some things are worse than death.

My question is, "Who's responsible for all those people who died out on the streets waiting for help that came too late? And the ones who passed away in the Super Dome while FEMA and our government had their thumbs up their butts and wading thru red tape?"

IMO, those were much more horrible deaths than the what happened with these patients in the hospital.

AMEN!!

 

[shopper]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205119,00.html
At the right of the story are other links to follow including a story about the families.

I know that if my grandmother were in a hospital or nursing home, wild horses wouldn't be able to drag my mother out of her room. My mother would carry her on her back out of the hospital and if that wasn't an option, she would never leave her to possibly die alone, even if her own life was at stake. Having said that, where was the concern for these people, why were their relatives not there to make sure they were being cared for? I really don't want to bash the surviving loved ones and I know it's not so simple, but if they'd done right by their relatives, this may have been avoided.

I $mell a lawsuit and that's where this supposed concern and outrage is coming from IMO. Not that they didn't care and love them, maybe this is stemming from their own guilt.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

I know that if my grandmother were in a hospital or nursing home, wild horses wouldn't be able to drag my mother out of her room. My mother would carry her on her back out of the hospital and if that wasn't an option, she would never leave her to possibly die alone, even if her own life was at stake. Having said that, where was the concern for these people, why were their relatives not there to make sure they were being cared for? I really don't want to bash the surviving loved ones and I know it's not so simple, but if they'd done right by their relatives, this may have been avoided.

I $mell a lawsuit and that's where this supposed concern and outrage is coming from IMO. Not that they didn't care and love them, maybe this is stemming from their own guilt.

Exactly.

And you have to wonder about some people's IQs/ability for denial.
From the Fox news article:
>The daughter of another patient in the case said her mother, Ireatha Watson, had been very sick, with gangrene in both legs and dementia, but that she been stable two days before Katrina hit. Watson, 89, had been scheduled to have her legs amputated Aug. 29, the day the hurricane hit.

>"I found it strange that she passed away the way she did, and I couldn't get any information," said Paulette Harris, Watson's daughter.

Frankly *I* don't find it strange at 89 year old woman with gangrenous legs & Alzheimers died after being subjected to several days without clean water in 100+ degree heat.

 

[shopper]

Exactly.

And you have to wonder about some people's IQs/ability for denial.
From the Fox news article:
>The daughter of another patient in the case said her mother, Ireatha Watson, had been very sick, with gangrene in both legs and dementia, but that she been stable two days before Katrina hit. Watson, 89, had been scheduled to have her legs amputated Aug. 29, the day the hurricane hit.

>"I found it strange that she passed away the way she did, and I couldn't get any information," said Paulette Harris, Watson's daughter.

Frankly *I* don't find it strange at 89 year old woman with gangrenous legs & Alzheimers died after being subjected to several days without clean water in 100+ degree heat.

I know very little about gangrene, but isn't it an infection that is spreading? Doesn't it spread quickly? Since she needed an amputation and it had been put off, who knows when she would have gotten it and how much worse off she'd been.

I'm a firm believer in there are worse things than death. And these were extreme circumstances; under normal, desirable circumstances it would be different.

I think it's wrong of these families to bash these nurses and doctor. They were there trying to take care of these people in hellish conditions while the relatives of the pts. were trying to do what they had to do.

 

[BhamMama]

Big long convulated post, too emotional, too close to my home and my heart. Deleted because I can't be neutral on this subject.

 

[shopper]

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or rude either but I did not realize that there were still jobs to go to at the point that the city was flooded and people were being stranded. I'm sorry, but I can say with 100% certainty that if it were my grandmother lying in a hospital, she would not have been there alone. I may not say much else with such conviction but I know my mother and how devoted she is to caring for my grandmother.

And I am NOT blaming the victims but it seems that some of them sure like to play the blame game but their actions (or lack of) aren't up for speculation? Those doctors and nurses did their best and were the only ones there for these people and did the best they could. And we don't know all the facts at this point anyway.

Again, Katrina was a very unique situation and I don't think you can apply normalcy to anything that happened then.

 

[shopper]

And while I'm at it, if anyone is to be brought up on murder charges or any charges it should be that azzhat Nagin. He makes me sick. He was incredibly incompetant and negligent. He pissed and moaned and b*tched at every opportunity instead of getting out there and getting it done, and has blamed everyone but HIMSELF. There is plenty of blame to go around for sure, but I've yet to hear him take any of it.

And the kicker is...he was re-elected!!!!! I'm not going to say what I think about those that voted for him, I may get a flaming I'll never recover from.

JMO

 

[Mira]

Again, Katrina was a very unique situation and I don't think you can apply normalcy to anything that happened then.

im a bit confused at these 2 posts, after this statement. no one was to blame for katrina but mother nature. terrible decisions had to be made. we live 80 miles from new orleans. it was very bad here. nobody came to help for days and days. i nearly died, and i think if i wasnt so stubborn i would have. i still havent recovered. i lost faith in my country forever.

for over 2 weeks, all we had was a battery radio. i listened to it 24 hours a day, and got a feeling for the people that were trying to cope. it was overwhelming for those that really cared about people. ray nagin was one of those that cared. his grief for his city was palpable. his desperation was unmistakable. i dont think any of us realized that the us government wasnt going to turn a hair to help for weeks . the fact that new orleans is getting back on her feet at all is directly due to his 'pissing, whining, and bit*hing'. in my opinion, he did the best he could in an unbelievable disaster.

 

[shopper]

im a bit confused at these 2 posts, after this statement. no one was to blame for katrina but mother nature. terrible decisions had to be made. we live 80 miles from new orleans. it was very bad here. nobody came to help for days and days. i nearly died, and i think if i wasnt so stubborn i would have. i still havent recovered. i lost faith in my country forever.

for over 2 weeks, all we had was a battery radio. i listened to it 24 hours a day, and got a feeling for the people that were trying to cope. it was overwhelming for those that really cared about people. ray nagin was one of those that cared. his grief for his city was palpable. his desperation was unmistakable. i dont think any of us realized that the us government wasnt going to turn a hair to help for weeks . the fact that new orleans is getting back on her feet at all is directly due to his 'pissing, whining, and bit*hing'. in my opinion, he did the best he could in an unbelievable disaster.

If you feel tha Nagin did his best and still is, then I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I happen to feel differently. Like I said above, there is plenty of blame to go around but he did not/has not taken his fair share IMO.

 

[2sisters]

Katrina nurses called victims of justice



http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-6/1153639345230580.xml&coll=1

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

im a bit confused at these 2 posts, after this statement. no one was to blame for katrina but mother nature. terrible decisions had to be made. we live 80 miles from new orleans. it was very bad here. nobody came to help for days and days. i nearly died, and i think if i wasnt so stubborn i would have. i still havent recovered. i lost faith in my country forever.

for over 2 weeks, all we had was a battery radio. i listened to it 24 hours a day, and got a feeling for the people that were trying to cope. it was overwhelming for those that really cared about people. ray nagin was one of those that cared. his grief for his city was palpable. his desperation was unmistakable. i dont think any of us realized that the us government wasnt going to turn a hair to help for weeks . the fact that new orleans is getting back on her feet at all is directly due to his 'pissing, whining, and bit*hing'. in my opinion, he did the best he could in an unbelievable disaster.

Ray Nagin is a fool. And now that the city re-elected them, he is the King of the Fools.

 

[Details]

Gangrene does spread, and IIRC, it also hits a critical point where if the limb is not amputated, the gangrene gets into the blood, and bang - you're dead. That's why the amputation can't be delayed. The conditions during the flood would sure not have helped at all! No earthly way a person with gangrene at a point of needing amputation would survive long at all without that amputation, in those primitive conditions.

I know it's grief, and denial, and wanting to believe their mother could have survived - but it's still shameful to be blaming the nurses for this case, helping to prosecute people who were some of the heroes of this disaster, in reality.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Its going to be pretty simple to find out if they killed them with medication or not. If they did, that's wrong and they need to be tried for it. If not, they need one hell of an apology. Ray Nagin is indeed a fool. I can't believe they voted him in again. :bang:

 

[dark_shadows]

Here is an old story from Rita Cosby.It is an interview with Donald Ecklund,he rescued people from a nursing home,including the nursing home owner who left people to die.


Parts of it;
This man, Salvador Mangano, he is one of the owners who‘s now being charged with negligent homicide. You‘re saying he stood on the roof. You asked him why didn‘t he evacuate, and he didn‘t say anything. Then he leaves and left those people to die there for four days, while you were trying to save some of them.

If you knew now that he was the owner and you know now that he‘s charged with negligent homicide, along, I believe, with his wife, what would you do? Would you have saved him?

ECKLUND: He would still have been on that roof.

COSBY: You would have left him? Just because of what you saw?

ECKLUND: I would have left him in a heartbeat. I made a conscious decision to stay. Those elderly people didn‘t have a choice. That‘s why they were in a nursing home. That was his responsibility. And again, if I knew that that was the owner, he would still be on that roof today.


Rita link
There is also video.

 

[MSM]

Gangrene does spread, and IIRC, it also hits a critical point where if the limb is not amputated, the gangrene gets into the blood, and bang - you're dead. That's why the amputation can't be delayed. The conditions during the flood would sure not have helped at all! No earthly way a person with gangrene at a point of needing amputation would survive long at all without that amputation, in those primitive conditions.

I know it's grief, and denial, and wanting to believe their mother could have survived - but it's still shameful to be blaming the nurses for this case, helping to prosecute people who were some of the heroes of this disaster, in reality.

Yep. And there's no way a surgery could have been performed without power for the anesthesia machines, lights, sterile instruments, cautery to control bleeding, etc etc. I'm sure that poor woman was lying there in 100+ degree heat with her legs literally rotting off, and now we're wondering why she died? It makes me realize how little understanding some people have of how far medicine has come in the past 100 years, and how pretty much all of that technological capability was lost in the days following the hurricane. Just because someone was alert and talking before the storm doesn't mean they weren't dying miserably four days later. That kind of downward spiral happens often enough in the hospital when everything is normal.

I think the person who said that the families' reactions are fueled in part by their own guilt is right. The CNN sidebar article said that two of one patient's daughters "didn't know" that their mother had been transferred from a nursing home to Memorial. Well, did they call the nursing home before they evacuated to find out what would happen to their mother? Did they try to get her out of there? Or did they just leave and not give her a second thought? I'm not trying to be harsh, but I have seen it happen more than once that the family members who are the most demanding and critical of hospital staff are the ones who are the least willing to take an active role in caring for their loved one.

 

[kgeaux]

Ray Nagin is a fool. And now that the city re-elected them, he is the King of the Fools.

And the people who voted for him are definitely fools. Ignorant and foolish, uninformed; I don't even know how to describe them.

The doctor and the two nurses, they are heroes in my book. When I first heard stories that this had happened, I didn't believe it. But when I met evacuees from New Orleans and heard of their suffering, I got my first glimpse into hell. Bravo to these three who did not leave these patients to die of thirst, of heat exhaustion, of gangrene.

 

[kgeaux]

Its going to be pretty simple to find out if they killed them with medication or not. If they did, that's wrong and they need to be tried for it. If not, they need one hell of an apology. Ray Nagin is indeed a fool. I can't believe they voted him in again. :bang:

I'm actually hearing that the bodies were so decomposed (sat at the coroners for months) that it may be well impossible to find traces of any drugs in the system......I don't know if that is true or not. The statements of the three to various news agencies are being used to make a case in lieu of pathology reports....IF what I've heard is accurate. But even if they did end the suffering of these people with drugs, I don't think it's criminal. I think it was kindness and compassion that they poured out on these people.

 

[shopper]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/22/music.kfeds.debut.ap/index.html

If you get a chance, try to watch this documentary on HBO. I saw parts 1 & 2 last night and have 3 & 4 autotuned to watch tonight. It was great (filming and the way it was done, not the content obviously).

 

[curious1]

I know that if my grandmother were in a hospital or nursing home, wild horses wouldn't be able to drag my mother out of her room. My mother would carry her on her back out of the hospital and if that wasn't an option, she would never leave her to possibly die alone, even if her own life was at stake. Having said that, where was the concern for these people, why were their relatives not there to make sure they were being cared for?

Because like far to many people now they were expecting somone else to do it for them. No personal responsiblity anymore so do you really expect them to take responsiblity for someone else? My mother was the same way. They live on the NC coast and my grandmother was in the hosptial during a hurricane and where was my mother.....right there at her beside. She knew the nurses would be short staffed and busy and she did not want my grandmother to be there alone and scared. Had it been a situation like Katrina, my mother would have made arrangements the week before to have her moved to someplace safer. It's not like this was a tornado that came out of the blue it was predicted for at least 2 weeks before it hit. :banghead:

 

[shopper]

Because like far to many people now they were expecting somone else to do it for them. No personal responsiblity anymore so do you really expect them to take responsiblity for someone else? My mother was the same way. They live on the NC coast and my grandmother was in the hosptial during a hurricane and where was my mother.....right there at her beside. She knew the nurses would be short staffed and busy and she did not want my grandmother to be there alone and scared. Had it been a situation like Katrina, my mother would have made arrangements the week before to have her moved to someplace safer. It's not like this was a tornado that came out of the blue it was predicted for at least 2 weeks before it hit. :banghead:

You're right, there's no such thing as personal responsibility/accountability anymore. Always someone else's fault. The only exception to that for me is the elderly and the sick, and children obviously. The elected officials of New Orleans and Louisiana knew more than anybody that there were some that were barely getting by and had no way to leave and they failed them. I'm talking about elderly, bedridden people, not 25 y/o healthy, young adults who are capable of doing for themselves.

And Ray Nagin still doesn't get it, it's still everyone else's fault but his. I don't think he's an evil man, he was just way too incompetent but he won't admit it.

JMO