LA - Hurricane Katrina, Doctors Euthanized Patients?, 2005

[RubyJune]

Stone Phillips did an interview on Dateline with Dr. Johnson who was at Lindy Boggs Medical Center during the hurricane. Reading this is not nearly as gut wrenching as watching Dr. Johnson tell it but still is worth reading.

I'm sorry I don't know how to do all the links and things you all do but I'm sure if you google dateline lindy boggs you should be able to find it.

 

[KJERVIS]

KJervis,I wish you the best--you were thrust into a situation that seems almost unimaginable--Please keep posting

Oh don’t you worry about me, nothing will keep me away! I will say it is disheartening this day in age. I spent 11 years preparing to help humanity by being a doctor. I constantly have people second guessing my decisions because of something their friend says or something they read on the internet. I don’t know when the tide turned against the medical community as a whole. I suppose its deferred aggression with the cost of medical care and insurance hassles. It saddens me that my hands are often tied and I have to write off patients who refuse the treatments I recommend. One thing that is often forgotten is that although we are doctors and we hold lives in our hands we are still simply human. We feel compassion and we feel sorrow with the outcomes of what we have chosen to do. Sometimes a few have to be sacrificed to save the majority.

 

[cathieq]

There is no single action that can be prescribed as right for every person and every circumstance (Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, Joe Sachs (translation)).

When I am sick or hurting I put my faith in the medical community to do what they can to help me. Under normal circumstances that 'healing' would involve family, friends, second opinions, consultations and so on. That healing would also involve pharmacists, state-of-the-art equipment, viable transportation to needed resources, etc.

But Hurricane Katrina was not normal circumstances. It was a tragic, unforeseeable once-in-a-lifetime occurrence. Surrounded by horror, working in inhumane conditions, putting their own fear of death aside - these men & women followed a collective conscience. You cannot judge this event as you would judge a normal event. You cannot truly say what should or should not have been done because in all truth we don't know what we would have done.

 

[CyberLaw]

If you "hasten" the death of another person through action or inaction, you are guility of a crime.

Laws are reflected in the morality and values of society.

So if a man jumps off a building. On the way down, you put your hand out the window and shoot him. Can you say then: Well Officer, he was going to die anyways, therefore, I shot him so he would land dead on the ground, not "feel" the impact(not that he would be conscious)and would not feel the pain.

Guess what he was alive when you "killed" him, just like these patients were "alive" when the Doctor and nurses killed them.

Four people get lost, one is injured, the injured person is "going to die" anyways because they cannot get to medical attention.

So to "ease" his pain, and to ensure that the other three "make" it out, you kill him. Is that mercy, no, it is murder.

You have terminal cancer, you are going to die. So the Doctor says: Well you are going to die, so should I "ease" your FUTURE suffering and killl you now, or do you want to go through the pain.

Just kidding: You have no say: I am going to "inject" you with a lethal drug, these nice men are going to hold you down. You have no choice. I have made this decision for you.

What you don't agree, of course you do, you see "I am only acting in your best interest" to prevent you from your "future" suffering, I am having mercy upon you.

Come on........

 

[KJERVIS]

There is no single action that can be prescribed as right for every person and every circumstance (Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, Joe Sachs (translation)).

When I am sick or hurting I put my faith in the medical community to do what they can to help me. Under normal circumstances that 'healing' would involve family, friends, second opinions, consultations and so on. That healing would also involve pharmacists, state-of-the-art equipment, viable transportation to needed resources, etc.

But Hurricane Katrina was not normal circumstances. It was a tragic, unforeseeable once-in-a-lifetime occurrence. Surrounded by horror, working in inhumane conditions, putting their own fear of death aside - these men & women followed a collective conscience. You cannot judge this event as you would judge a normal event. You cannot truly say what should or should not have been done because in all truth we don't know what we would have done.

Very well said.

 

[CyberLaw]

When the "bird" flu hits, that will not be "normal" circumstance either.

You take your "sick" child to the hospital for treatment. You fully expect what ever means possible to treat your child will be used, even if that means you child will eventually die from the bird flu.

So the Doctor takes the child into another room. Gives him a needle and then comes out and explains to you:

Well these are not "normal" circumstances, your child will die a "terrrible" death, therefore we just killed him now to "ease" his future suffering.

You should thanks us, we did this for him and we did it for you. We had "mercy" upon your child, I DECIDED to kill him, I DECIDED to end his "future" pain and I just cannot understand why you are so upset. He was going to die anyways.

Well guess what, that is murder, because "he killed" the child, just as this Doctor killed these patients.

if the circumstances are not normal, that is even more reason to be "extra" dilligent for this type of behaviour.

Not "use" the circumstances to "justify" criminal behavior.

I know for a fact, that under "any circumstances" in any condition, I will not take the life of another human being, unless there is a danger to myself or my family. I don't believe in pre-emptive murder.

 

[Details]

Oh don’t you worry about me, nothing will keep me away! I will say it is disheartening this day in age. I spent 11 years preparing to help humanity by being a doctor. I constantly have people second guessing my decisions because of something their friend says or something they read on the internet. I don’t know when the tide turned against the medical community as a whole. I suppose its deferred aggression with the cost of medical care and insurance hassles. It saddens me that my hands are often tied and I have to write off patients who refuse the treatments I recommend. One thing that is often forgotten is that although we are doctors and we hold lives in our hands we are still simply human. We feel compassion and we feel sorrow with the outcomes of what we have chosen to do. Sometimes a few have to be sacrificed to save the majority.

These doctors were risking their lives to stay behind, and did their best in unimaginable circumstances - I don't know, but I think the overwhelming majority of people do understand that. The family - you know they can't be objective - and I think some people are so used to watching medical miracles on TV that they don't realize where the limits are, and without seeing it in their own family or themselves, some just don't get how life has it's limits.

 

[concernedperson]

These doctors were risking their lives to stay behind, and did their best in unimaginable circumstances - I don't know, but I think the overwhelming majority of people do understand that. The family - you know they can't be objective - and I think some people are so used to watching medical miracles on TV that they don't realize where the limits are, and without seeing it in their own family or themselves, some just don't get how life has it's limits.

What a true post and one many should heed. There are limits.....

 

[KJERVIS]

These doctors were risking their lives to stay behind, and did their best in unimaginable circumstances - I don't know, but I think the overwhelming majority of people do understand that. The family - you know they can't be objective - and I think some people are so used to watching medical miracles on TV that they don't realize where the limits are, and without seeing it in their own family or themselves, some just don't get how life has it's limits.

Your comment about TV makes me think of that show House. I know not one physician or nurse that watches that show. It’s simply ridiculous from a medical standpoint. I think this is what some people think about medicine. I think there are many professions where the people could be considered as acting like God. Policemen, medics, fireman etc. Every time I show up for my shift I don the cloak of God. Darn right I do. I firmly believe that God works through me. God gave me the brains and the drive to work his miracles in an age where his work can be so clearly seen. I am truly blessed to see everyday the work of man displayed in such caring and lifesaving manner. Families often can not see that death comes for everyone. Its never easy. Its never easy to know that the person that you have just worked on for the last hour is beyond helping. There has to be a moment where you have to let them go. Its a choice every physician has to make. If that means Im 'playing God' than so be it I can accept that.

 

[Details]

Your comment about TV makes me think of that show House. I know not one physician or nurse that watches that show. It’s simply ridiculous from a medical standpoint. I think this is what some people think about medicine. I think there are many professions where the people could be considered as acting like God. Policemen, medics, fireman etc. Every time I show up for my shift I don the cloak of God. Darn right I do. I firmly believe that God works through me. God gave me the brains and the drive to work his miracles in an age where his work can be so clearly seen. I am truly blessed to see everyday the work of man displayed in such caring and lifesaving manner. Families often can not see that death comes for everyone. Its never easy. Its never easy to know that the person that you have just worked on for the last hour is beyond helping. There has to be a moment where you have to let them go. Its a choice every physician has to make. If that means Im 'playing God' than so be it I can accept that.

Absolutely. And I think playing God by holding someone here in pain and unable to have anything at all positive in their life - not even interaction with the world and their family - is the worst aspect of playing God. Paramedics probably do it the most - they hit a crash scene, and decide who goes first, who they work on first - that is a huge playing God decision.

God gave us intelligence and compassion - I'm sure he didn't intend us to ignore them.

Now - House.... OK, I love the show. But I'm not taking it as real, let alone represenative of everyday reality, that every disease can be identified, or cured (not to mention the unrealistic tactics - but the show is fun!). But I also watch a ton of the reality medical shows - I generally hate a script. And you see how arbitrary and unpredictable it can all be. Someone who seems in good shape dies, someone with multiple deadly injuries survives. Sometimes the ER is sleepy, other times it is so busy that the doctor has to figure out who is dying fastest, who can be saved, and work in that order. And you feel so sorry for the victims, because often they can't be given much or anything of pain meds until their problems are understood, and you can just see the agony they're in.

 

[Amraann]

KJervis,


I for one respect and admire what you and most in your profession stand for.

Cyberlaw again I and going to go back to laws are written for normal civilized situations.
If you think its more humane to watch those who could not be moved drown then You can have your law.. I would rather be a criminal.
You never did answer my question..
What should they have done??
Sat back and watched?
There is NOWAY you can tell me that is humane or right or moral.

 

[dottierainbow]

Details, well said. I would of hated to be in their shoes. At least they cared enough to stay! Remember, how many police officers who took off? I remember a police officer was so disgusted he took his own life.Who knows what we would of done in their position.
Amy

 

[mysteriew]

I think much of their decision was predisposed by their training. If you understand the concept of triage, then it gives you a better understanding of what may have led up to the decisions.
In war or mass casualty disasters triage (which is taught to doctors and nurses) teaches that you cannot save everyone. And that in order to save the ones you can, you have to let some go.
Terminal injuries either recieve no care or pallative care. Life threatening injures take top priority and then lesser injuries come after.
However, these same doctors and nurses are also people. Usually very compassionate people. And compared to the number of patients and the number of caregivers- they could not get all of them out. Additionally, they themselves had been abandoned by their company, with no help sent to them to help manage getting that number of people out. And if they left these people with no care, they were going suffer. That is in violation of their moral conciousness as well as their oath. So they were in a catch 22. If they abandoned the patients alive, the patients would not have anyone to provide care and with the heat and as the water slowly crept up on them, gradually covering their bodies- they would suffer.
So do they knowingly condemn the patients to more suffering? Or do they take action to end the suffering of the patients they don't think they can save?
If it was left up to you, which would you choose? Leave the patient alive in a center that was flooding or leave with the patients suffering ended?

 

[Amraann]

I think much of their decision was predisposed by their training. If you understand the concept of triage, then it gives you a better understanding of what may have led up to the decisions.
In war or mass casualty disasters triage (which is taught to doctors and nurses) teaches that you cannot save everyone. And that in order to save the ones you can, you have to let some go.
Terminal injuries either recieve no care or pallative care. Life threatening injures take top priority and then lesser injuries come after.
However, these same doctors and nurses are also people. Usually very compassionate people. And compared to the number of patients and the number of caregivers- they could not get all of them out. Additionally, they themselves had been abandoned by their company, with no help sent to them to help manage getting that number of people out. And if they left these people with no care, they were going suffer. That is in violation of their moral conciousness as well as their oath. So they were in a catch 22. If they abandoned the patients alive, the patients would not have anyone to provide care and with the heat and as the water slowly crept up on them, gradually covering their bodies- they would suffer.
So do they knowingly condemn the patients to more suffering? Or do they take action to end the suffering of the patients they don't think they can save?
If it was left up to you, which would you choose? Leave the patient alive in a center that was flooding or leave with the patients suffering ended?

Excellent post Mysteriew ..

 

[KJERVIS]

Details, Amraann, Amy, Peter, concernedperson, natasha-cupcake , cathieq and mysteriew: I just wanted to say thank you for your insightful and well thought out responses to such a touchy subject. I feel honoured to be able to share my thoughts and feelings with such an intelligent group of people.

Kate

 

[mysteriew]

Excellent post Mysteriew ..

LOL, I have my moments now and then.

 

[CyberLaw]

Please.....do you know how many criminals use "the emotional" response to a murder.

I am really sorry to inform you of this, a person is not disposible. If one chooses under any circumstances to "take the life" of another human being, then that person is guilty of a crime. Period. No matter what the circumstances are......

Read the charging "provisions" of 2nd degree murder. This person will be found guilty, the nurses maybe to a lesser degree, and lawsuits shall prevail.

The Doctor killed patients, period.

You can "cloud" your "statement" with "emotion" but emotion will play no part.

The fact will be: Did you "order" the death of 4 people. Yes.

Did you "order" the Nurses to administer the "medicine"(sic)to kill these people. Yes.

Did these people die a "natural death". No.

Were these people going to die: Well, I don't know, maybe.

Are they alive now. No

Where they "murdered". Yes.

Did these people, being of sound mind, express "wishes" to be "assisted" in a suicide. No.

Did any of these people want to die. No.

Where they aware "that the needles" you were going to give them, were "medicine" that would cause their deaths. No.

If I had a dime for everytime a "defendent" who used "emotion" in "the justification of their criminal acts, a lot more people will not be in jail and roaming the street.

The point is: There is no indication what so ever, that these people were going to die. It was "most likely", but not certain, that they would. When you inject them with lethal drugs, it is not "uncertain", it is murder.

Second degree murder is defined as "murder with no premediation or pre planning........

Murder is the key word.

We don't blame the victims of a crime for the "criminals" behavior.

So you are blaming these "victims" for the crimes of one individual.

This happened three days after Katrina...........so no they were not going to "drown".

You people don't seem to get it....the law is the law, it is in place to "protect" people. Especially people "who are "in need of protection".

Where was the "mercy" for the person to live..........they had no
choice.....not given a "choice" to live or die.......the choice was made for them. Their life was "taken from them, by another person".

These people's lives were "deemed" disposible........as in "throw away" and that is exactly what happened.

If a person dies a death that is not punishable by law it is "natural" or suicide. Anything else is "bound" by the laws of the land.......

These people "were put down" just like an animal, except they were living, breathing human beings.

Even in Switzerland, where "assisted" suicide is legal, there is a "great deal" and I mean "close" scrutnity and checks and balances in place, to ensure that this was the "choice" of the person, to "Take THEIR own life. Their choice, what they feel is "best for THEM.

The people who where murdered in N.O. did not ask to die, there was "no suicide" wish, it was one person who made the determination to kill them.

www.cbsnews.com

"You can help a patient to make a suicide, but you are not allowed even in the worst cases, to kill him". Says Dr. Helmut Eichenburger, a retired urologist who volunteers for Dignitas(the assisted suicide organization in Zurich)

 

[Details]

It's so sad. These doctors and nurses are tried in the media by a bunch of people sitting in nice clean rooms, with electrical power, food, and a functioning medical system - for an act of pure, unselfish, self sacrificing charity.

 

[CyberLaw]

Do you think what this person did was "CHARITY". I don't think the families and relatives of these people see it that way.

It would have been "nice" if the 4 murdered people "could have been given" a choice to "decline" such an act of charity. But they were "given no choice", this "charity" was "thrust" upon them if they "wanted" it or not.

It was murder, just the same as seeing an injured person on the side of the road in the middle of "extreme" circumstances and getting out your gun, putting it to their head and pulling the trigger, jumping back into your car and patting yourself on the back for "acting in kindness", charity and mercy" for the person you just killed.

There was and is no "charity" about murder............

These people were not even aware, based of the fact that they could not be evacuated, that the "only" other "alternative" that the "healing" Doctor could come up was murder.

Sorry we "can't evacuate you, so I guess the only other thing to do is to kill you. But you will never know.......

The Doctor decided that these patients were disposible and the "decision" was made to kill them. She made that decision and will go to Prison.

It was not a legal or ethical decision because if I remember "Sunday" School - one of the things is "thou shalt" not kill".

Not "thou shalt not kill" except under "some circumstances" like an "extreme" situation.........

There is not exceptions to murder...in the big guys eyes or the law.

Ethics is the difference between right and wrong.

She may have "thought" she was making an "ethical" decision, but who is to say "that she was thinking" with her full capacity and was making "a sound" judgement call.

Since she was arrested for 2nd degree murder, I would say that I am not the only one to "have problems" in the fact that she killed 4 people.

She will get convicted I "put money" on it as the "law is only interested" in the facts. Did she "murder" 4 people or did she not.

The factors surrounding the murders "may be mitigating", but it will not, does not, nor will it ever, excuse or dismiss the fact that she "caused" the death of 4 people.

She "sacrificed" these 4 people, she did not "self-sacrifice" herself......

But she will be convicted.

 

[Details]

The diseases these people had caused their deaths. The hurricane caused their deaths. The horrible lack of planning by government at all levels caused their deaths. The few people who risked their lives to stay and care for all of these patients, and managed to save most of them - they didn't cause a death. The most they may have done is to shorten a torturous time before an imminent and certain death.

They won't be convicted. Enough people understand this that at the very worst, any jury will hang rather than convict, but most likely, the jury will exonerate them. But it's still a travesty that they're even charged, and that if they did do anything, that it can't be recognized nor admitted to.