LA - Hurricane Katrina, Doctors Euthanized Patients?, 2005

[curious1]

I know. I could not believe how many childern and animals had to suffer when they had adults/humans in their lives that were capable and had the means to leave the city before disaster struck. I will never ever forget chatting with someone who said they had to leave their dog behind and hoped he was safe. When I asked why she 'had' to leave him behind she said that it was her an her sister in a 4 door Pontiac Grand Prix and they just could not take all their clothes and the dog. So the clothes were more important then a living breathing being. I was sooooo furious!!!!!!:furious: And then she accused me of being unfeeling because how could I know what she was going through. I told her that if my husband and I had to evacuate we would pack our dog and 2 rabbits along with their food and then we we see if we had room for more than 1 one duffel bag apiece and that I could assure her that no I have no idea what she was going through because I actually gave a damn about my pets therefore I would have approached the situation entirely differently. My DH and I discussed it then.....if we could not find shelters to take us and our animals we would drive 3 states or more away to find a hotel where we could all stay together.

 

[CyberLaw]

Taking another person's life is murder, no matter, if it is for what ever reason that you may feel justified.

Mercy killing is "just a polite" way of saying that "we the powers that be" have decided to end your life. We decided......so we are going to kill you.

Facts are facts, taking another person's life is murder, homicide, what ever.

What is the difference between a "murderous" male nurse, or a Ped. Nurse, deciding to take the life of patients whom are very ill with no chance for recovery or are elderly. No one, except G-d, can decide a person's fate, if there is any intentional "death", then it is intentional........and the person should and will be brought to "justice".

I don't care what their "altrustic" intentions were, they were their own motives and intentions, not the legal or moral intentions.

 

[KJERVIS]

Speaking as a physician who rendered aid both in NO in the aftermath of Katrina and in my hometown, I feel I have to post that not one person on this board can pass judgment on the decisions of the people who lived through this disaster. I saw things that I hope and pray I never have to see again in my life. The sheer amount of misery and devastation that these people encountered can not even be put into words. One can not know the reasons why another does something in times of extreme stress and pressure. We do not know how ill these people were as the information has not been released. From personal experience, it is very hard to have someone look you in the eye and tell you to have mercy on them and to just let them die. Judgment from others about the choices you make as a physician is one of the main reasons why I do not practice medicine and instead chose research.

 

[CyberLaw]

What is a line in the "oath" that Doctors take: Do no harm, I don't care if a person "asks" to put to death, that person does not have presence of mind.

It is another person who has decided to "kill you", if you want to be put to death, then your choice would be to "die" by your own hand, or given the means to die by your own hand.

But to "help" a person die in a "mercy" killing, is intentional homicide. I do pass judgement, because the person who they may have "decided" to "put an end to their misery, could be a sister, brother, uncle, mother, father.

They might want to "consult" with "loved" ones before the "person committing the "mercy" killing passes judgment by killing "deciding" in their own self centered interest to kill another human being.

The people at this facility did pass judgement. The judgment was to kill people.

 

[shopper]

Dateline is on right now, covering the patients and staff at Lindy Boggs hospital. It's only been on 10 min. so everyone tune in! Or when it comes on in your time zone.

 

[KJERVIS]

What is a line in the "oath" that Doctors take: Do no harm, I don't care if a person "asks" to put to death, that person does not have presence of mind.

It is another person who has decided to "kill you", if you want to be put to death, then your choice would be to "die" by your own hand, or given the means to die by your own hand.

But to "help" a person die in a "mercy" killing, is intentional homicide. I do pass judgement, because the person who they may have "decided" to "put an end to their misery, could be a sister, brother, uncle, mother, father.

They might want to "consult" with "loved" ones before the "person committing the "mercy" killing passes judgment by killing "deciding" in their own self centered interest to kill another human being.

The people at this facility did pass judgement. The judgment was to kill people.

Please remember this, you were not present. You do not know what transpired between these patients and their caregivers. I am not saying it is a choice I would make but I can easily see how that sort of situation could transpire. I am well aware of the oath that I took. First off there is no "never do harm" portion of the oath, you are thinking of the old hippocratic oath which is no longer in use.The first and foremost of my oath I declared to pledge myself to consecrate my life to the service of humanity. In addition to this we swear to respect human life from the beginning even under threat. We are humans and humans interprete the meanings of oaths in different manners. My point was simply to point out that not one of us on this board were present when this event took place. Based on that alone we are not entitled to pass judgement. We are of course entitled to pass on our opinions, as we have all done.

 

[cathieq]

I told her that if my husband and I had to evacuate we would pack our dog and 2 rabbits along with their food and then we we see if we had room for more than 1 one duffel bag apiece and that I could assure her that no I have no idea what she was going through because I actually gave a damn about my pets therefore I would have approached the situation entirely differently. My DH and I discussed it then.....if we could not find shelters to take us and our animals we would drive 3 states or more away to find a hotel where we could all stay together.

My hat's off to you!:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[concernedperson]

Please remember this, you were not present. You do not know what transpired between these patients and their caregivers. I am not saying it is a choice I would make but I can easily see how that sort of situation could transpire. I am well aware of the oath that I took. First off there is no "never do harm" portion of the oath, you are thinking of the old hippocratic oath which is no longer in use.The first and foremost of my oath I declared to pledge myself to consecrate my life to the service of humanity. In addition to this we swear to respect human life from the beginning even under threat. We are humans and humans interprete the meanings of oaths in different manners. My point was simply to point out that not one of us on this board were present when this event took place. Based on that alone we are not entitled to pass judgement. We are of course entitled to pass on our opinions, as we have all done.

Don't think that your comments are under the radar. There is a special breed of physician that understands special needs. They are the ones that are upfront and personal. They are the ones that understand life's qualities and know when someone can't take it anymore.Bless all of you who put forth the effort and deal with Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

 

[CyberLaw]

My point is: Who "left" the job of playing God to others, who "decides" and on what criteria if a mercy killing is "justified" or not.

i would like to "vote" people off this planet, but again, I am not God, nor do I claim that I have "special" knowledge in my own mind to play God.

Does someone look at me, smile, and then think to themselves: Well I am going to "kill" this person in the form of a "mercy" killing. Do I have a choice, can I choose to live if you "decide" to kill me and then justify it in your own mind, by your own beliefs that is was "mercy" for me.

Darn it, ask me, consult me, give me a choice, because if given a choice, would any of these patients say, No. Would that choice be respected, given the "cavalier" attitude, I would say No, they would go ahead and kill me anyways, despite my "choice to live".

It is my choice, not someone elses......they do not decide if I live or die, I do.

Talk about power and control, manipulation over "vulnerable" adults.

Serial killer nurses use a "similiar" criteria in deciding if they want to "end" another person's suffering. They use the "lame" excuse that the patient was "terminal" anyways, or that the person was in pain and they were doing them a "favor", that under the "circumstances" that this would have been the "right" decision

Shipman liked to "use mercy" in killing patients, he "enjoyed" that he had power and control, enjoyed that he can use his position as a "respected" Doctor to "play" God, enjoyed the the "feeling" of "knowing" that he had this "secret" that only he knew when he injected patients with legal amounts of drugs.......

To end my post: No one on this planet, has the right under any circumstances to "take the life" of another person, if a person 'expresses" an interest to "end their suffering" then give them the means to do it themselves.....

Just the fact that "charges" have been laid, leads one to believe that "this was not a "just and legal" decision to kill others........there is nothing that equals "mercy" by playing "God" with other peoples lives.

Did they say to themselves: Well we can only handle the most "well" 10 patients, the other 5 who are very sick are going to be a problem for us, they will be a "burden" so therefore, we will end their suffering and "use the mercy killing criteria" as justification.

Oh, then in who's interest are you using the justification of mercy killing.

If it was a "true" mercy killing it would have been "completed" before Katrina.

Did this place have enough $, planning, staff, resources. If not, was the only other alternative to use "mercy" in killing patients.

I can see that it was "logistically" and "cost" effective for some to end the life of others because of pre-esisting "problems" that were "man made" and not the responsibility of the patients.

Take their life, because of lack of planning, lack of money, lack of information, lack of everything.

But to "justify" mercy killing as in "you were not there" is not acceptable, because as we all know "murder" should be the very, very last restort, not the first, and not for "convenience".

Oh dear, we are just going to give you a "needle" to make you more comfortable, don't you worry, you will never, ever feel anything ever again.

We have decided to make this choice for you, regarding your life.........

Some of the patients had DNR in place, that is certainly no excuse, never an excuse to "hasten" their death by giving them lethal amounts of pain killers and sedatives.

2nd degree murder is still intentional homicide. Intentional being the key word.

 

[KJERVIS]

I would hardly classify any of these people who are under suspicion as serial anything. These people chose to stay behind with critical care patients who were unable to be moved. Moving them would have meant sure death, whereas being left behind means a chance at possible survival no matter how slim. These people chose to stay in a hospital with no lighting, no a/c, and no access to mechanical equipment. These people risked their lives to stay with those who had virtually no hope. I do not know where you are located and whether or not you experienced Katrina or any other level of natural disaster but conditions for medical personnel were non existent. We preformed with virtually no supplies and no sleep. Diagnoses were made in sharpie marker on shirts and barring that skin. The nurses assigned to me keeping people alive by hand pumping oxygen into their lungs. We did the best we could. Hell sure, I can guarantee I made poor judgment. The human brain tends to do that when deprived of sleep and subjected to horrific situations. Many of my colleagues, myself included, had to seek professional help to deal with the things that we saw. You should hope that if you are ever in a situation where you are dependant on medical personnel to ensure your survival that you have people as compassionate and dedicated as those that I had around me in the days following Katrina.

You of course are entitled to your opinion, however your inability to express empathy for people who put their lives on the line for their charges sickens me and thusly I will no longer be reading nor responding to your posts.

 

[KJERVIS]

Don't think that your comments are under the radar. There is a special breed of physician that understands special needs. They are the ones that are upfront and personal. They are the ones that understand life's qualities and know when someone can't take it anymore.Bless all of you who put forth the effort and deal with Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

Thank you, your words mean a great deal to me. Good Lord, could I tell you some stories about BC/BS of course we just call it BS

 

[natasha-cupcake]

Kjervis, God bless you and people like you who made the choice to stay and help, in a situation of utter horror and hopelessness. I can think of few scenarios that better define a situation "in extremis", than this one. I, for one, would never presume to judge the conduct of the caregivers who fought so hard to sustain life where possible and ease suffering where any reasonable person could see that it wasn't.

Talk is cheap. For all of us with strong convictions about how we would or wouldn't behave in a horrible crisis, let's all get together and discuss what we actually did when it's over. Thank God most of us will never be faced with having to do so.

 

[Details]

Taking another person's life is murder, no matter, if it is for what ever reason that you may feel justified.

Mercy killing is "just a polite" way of saying that "we the powers that be" have decided to end your life. We decided......so we are going to kill you.

Facts are facts, taking another person's life is murder, homicide, what ever.

What is the difference between a "murderous" male nurse, or a Ped. Nurse, deciding to take the life of patients whom are very ill with no chance for recovery or are elderly. No one, except G-d, can decide a person's fate, if there is any intentional "death", then it is intentional........and the person should and will be brought to "justice".

I don't care what their "altrustic" intentions were, they were their own motives and intentions, not the legal or moral intentions.

Killing a person, or saving one is deciding a person's fate - either both or neither are taking over God's role. A person is screaming in pain, and is seconds from death - and you decide to preserve their life, hold them in that moment, in that pain, in that condition where they are seconds from death for a few extra hours - even knowing that they will certainly die after those few hours of excruciating pain.

The difference between a murdering nurse, and these doctors and nurses possibly providing euthanasia to unsavable dying people in horrible conditions - if you can't see the difference, I really do honestly feel sorry for you.

 

[MagicRose99]

Killing a person, or saving one is deciding a person's fate - either both or neither are taking over God's role. A person is screaming in pain, and is seconds from death - and you decide to preserve their life, hold them in that moment, in that pain, in that condition where they are seconds from death for a few extra hours - even knowing that they will certainly die after those few hours of excruciating pain.

The difference between a murdering nurse, and these doctors and nurses possibly providing euthanasia to unsavable dying people in horrible conditions - if you can't see the difference, I really do honestly feel sorry for you.

IMO, I think a very important point is missing... A doctor or nurse has no right to play G-d. It is not their decision whether a person lives or dies... Either the person who is ill/dying and/or their immediate family member(s) are the only ones who SHOULD have the right to make those kind of decisions. In the katrina case, these patients were not on the verge of dying... they needed extra care that these "health care professionals" did not want to provide for them for their own reasons... NOT reasons for medical necessity.

If you start setting precedence that a health care professional has a right to decide who lives or who dies in whatever conditions, you're giving them the right to play G-d'

NOBODY has the right to decide if I live or die, except me and/or my children during a time that I cannot make that decision for myself... not a nurse, not a doctor... me or my next of kin.

 

[CyberLaw]

A women's mother went into hospital for a blood infection. She was one of the patients that "was sentenced to death", opps, let me rephrase that "was a "victim" of a "mercifull" death.

The Doctor decided to inject her with a sedative then a lethal painkiller.

All she had was a blood infection, so now "today" her daughter wants to know why from the family stand point - that her mother was "being treated" for a blood infection and then was "executed" by a Doctor who decided to end her life.

Any one care to comment if that was your Mom.....and you found out that your Mom was not terminal, on the road to recovery, was being "treated" successfully for a "blood disorder" and then a "complete" stranger decided it would be in the best interest of "the patient" to end her life.

No one asked her if she preferred "to die" then live, no one consulted her, her family, another doctor for a "second opinion" and she was not, not had or ever been "terminal" that is untill the "mercy" doctor gave the "order" to kill her, then she "became immediately" terminal, even though her orginal illness was not terminal.

So who played God in this instance, let me see, the person "who ordered" her death.

Heck, criminals appeals for death sentences take years, there was no "appeal" for this "death" sentence that was decided by one man......all on his own.

I do hope that he goes to prison for years, on what 4 counts of 2nd degree murder.

This man played God, her took the life of others and he broke the law and the justice system will take over.

But then again, we can just give him a needle in the arm and "ensure" that he will not suffer old age or "the horrors" of Prison.

But who makes that decision in a civilized world.....not only one person and he will not get the death penalty, even though he "exacted" same upon helpless individuals.........

He did not do this out of "mercy" for the patient, he "executed" them by his own ego, his own sence of power and control, his own what ever.

No one was ever "asked" if this was a "just, legal, morally, ethically" correct decision for one person to make over the lives of others.

 

[Amraann]

IMO, I think a very important point is missing... A doctor or nurse has no right to play G-d. It is not their decision whether a person lives or dies... Either the person who is ill/dying and/or their immediate family member(s) are the only ones who SHOULD have the right to make those kind of decisions. In the katrina case, these patients were not on the verge of dying... they needed extra care that these "health care professionals" did not want to provide for them for their own reasons... NOT reasons for medical necessity.

If you start setting precedence that a health care professional has a right to decide who lives or who dies in whatever conditions, you're giving them the right to play G-d'

NOBODY has the right to decide if I live or die, except me and/or my children during a time that I cannot make that decision for myself... not a nurse, not a doctor... me or my next of kin.

The issue here is not about Playing GOD.
The issue is your stuck in a flood of onrushing water. Where the hell was the government agencies that should have been there to help safely remove these people.

In hindsight its fairly easy to say "well they had two weeks".
DO you all have any idea what health care would cost if hospitals in areas like Nola and Florida or Mississippi evacuated 2 weeks before any protential storm hit? Even several days before. Hurricanes hardly follow the track predicted.
What exactly where the medical personal suppose to do?
SInce their choices under such diress obviously are not agreeable to everyone sitting safely at home judging.
What should they have done?? It is typically not the Dr or the Nurse who would be in charge of evacuating anyhow.. but an administrator.
So there they are the waters are rising .. they have no means to move the critical, no help from those who should have been prepared to help them.
They stayed in order to give these patients any glimmer of hope.
What should they have done?

ETA:
The norm of "law" applies in a civilized society where options are available.
Laws are implimented and enforced under the notion that it is a normal day
or that barring its not the police and emergency personal will be available to assist those in need. Where were they? Had the medical personal simply let these people drown would those in charge who did not have the forsite to evacuate or simply did not be responsible for these deaths? The Mayor? the Govenor?
What about the criminals simply let out? Is the police chief being charged with crimes they went out and committed after being released?

 

[CyberLaw]

If you read the article: The Doctor said: That these patients "were most likely" to die, he did not say they were going to die, just most likely.

But with the injection of a powerful "pre-op sedative" to knock the patient unconscious, then the injection of a lethal overdoes of painkiller, the chance of them dying was not mere "speculation" it was 100% certain.

That is second degree murder in "the justice" system of the USA.

Any Doctor that did that in Canada would be facing the same charges.

There was no mercy in this, none what so ever........it was "euthanesia" plain and simple and yes, ladies and gents, that is against the law.

When you "hasten" a person death, even if that person is in grave condition, you are guilty of 2nd degree murder.

You see if the Doctor intended to "ease" the pain and suffering of the patients then a pain killer is administered. That is to make the "patient" comfortable, and not in pain. That is agreeable to me.

But when you knock a person unconscious, then give them painkiller, you intend and anticipate their death.

Big difference........one is to ease suffering, the other to to kill them. That is the distinction that the "2nd degree" murder charge entails.

Even if the person was given an overdose of painkiller, there would be no indication that it was deliberate, a mistake, oversight, poor training or what ever.

But to intentionally kill someone, there is no question that you are "deciding" to kill them by your own "criteria" of who lives and who dies.

Read up on the charging provision of 2nd degree homicide..because that is exactly what this is..

A Canadian case - a man had a a disabled daughter. Wracked by spasm, pain, seizures, multiple operations.

He decided to put her out of her "misery", and thought he "decided" that he was acting in her best interest by killing her. He was charged, convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to 10 years in Prison, which was upheld upon appeal.

He decided to kill her, take her life and he broke the law, even if he "thought" what he did was in her best interest.....he decided for her, she did not decide for herself........could not, nor should not decide to die....

We put people who have suicidal tendencies in "a supervised" environment, because it is usually a "thought" disorder that needs to be treated because the person is not "thinking" correctly.....but then you want me to agree with the "thought" disorder that "they are better" of dead so lets kill them.

I don't think so, no one is "better" off dead.........

I do know right from wrong, I have a strong ethical and moral compass.

Society has spoken, the justice system has spoken and these people are up on charges. What was done to these people to "ease" their suffering was murder. It was not ethical(as in right and wrong), or legal(taking another persons life under any circumstances is homicide)

You are "lost in the woods", one person is injured, there are 4 of you. So the four decide to "end the suffering" of the 5th person to "use a mercy killing", do you think that when you are found, that they will say: Oh well, it was "justified" because he was "going to die anyways".

That would be no, they would be charged....just like these people were.....

 

[Peter Hamilton]

Cyberlaw,you were not there,as the doctor said--there was anarchy,chaos,a nightmare situation--its very easy to condemn what happened there,I think you should wait until more facts come out before getting up on your soapbox

 

[Peter Hamilton]

KJervis,I wish you the best--you were thrust into a situation that seems almost unimaginable--Please keep posting

 

[CyberLaw]

What soapbox, the question is between right and wrong......the right thing to do was to "ease" the suffering of patients, the wrong thing to do was to kill patients......

This is a simple case of one person "deciding" to kill others....2nd degree homicide.