Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.08.17 - Charge to the Jury - Day 2

[Kamille]

MS:
Main contact with MWJ from the get go.
Helped with procurement of the gun.
Was in on the planning / preparation of both incinerators.
Test it with 'something with bones in it' - he knows what it's for.
"Laura thing" text -> no explanation needed.
Was at Maple Gate at alleged time of murder.
"Don't be out front" text implies he's in on the plan.
Destroyed mattress evidence murder happened at Maple Gate.
Renames iPad next morning, no questions asked.

I won't get into the after the murder events - reams and reams of incriminating evidence, not least of which includes the garage admission of murder.

M1, beyond a reasonable doubt, no question..

Good list. I'm sure others can add to it.

Yes, MS was the main contact with MWJ as he claimed to be a friend of MS' sister. We know of at least one time he was there at the Smich home when MS was not. So MS did in fact help with the procurement of the gun, several actually. DM took a picture of two of them in Feb. So why is this one gun purchase being showcased for this trial when there supposedly was no ammunition but there were two other guns already purchased months earlier? There is no evidence that a gun was used in this murder so how does procuring it tie MS into LB's murder?

MS was in on the planning/preparation of both incinerators. So was SS. SS also knew that the Eliminator was to be used for "something with bones in it". SS was at the hangar when DM showed up the next day, possibly with the "rolled spliff" in a vehicle, and likely took that weird pic of DM on the bucket. SS is not on trial here.

Was there a text between them that said "the Laura situation"? I've heard different things regarding that.

MS was apparently at Maplegate at the time of the murder but so was MM. No one even asked her if she was there or if she remembers MS going upstairs and hanging with DM for any length of time while she was told to stay downstairs. Seems to be an assumption because of her testimony about the night of the incinerator burning. There appears to be no text communication between DM and MS from the time DM claims to be going out on a mission around 7:30pm until after midnight when MS asks him where he is. There is no text from DM to MS to indicate that he's home from the mission so how do we know that MS is even aware he's back at the house? MS even eventually asks him where he is at 12:42am. DM then makes an excuse as to why he has been out of touch by saying he hit the vapes and tripped out for a bit.

Don't be out front can go a couple of ways. If DM was planning on murdering a girl he was bringing home, he sure wouldn't want MM to see that girl, even if he was willing to tell MS about it after the fact and enlist his help with the disposal.

Unfortunately there's no evidence that MS was involved in the disposal of an old mattress or the purchase of a new one. No texts that even suggest that DM needs help moving it. And a king sized mattress would be no easy thing to move alone. Who did move it and dispose of it and what vehicle was used for that? Doesn't seem like any evidence regarding the old mattress was discovered other than it was not picked up by the delivery person.

The evidence does not suggest that the IPad was necessarily renamed the next morning. It was connected to DM's computer however. The evidence seems to suggest that MS was asleep at that time.

After the fact evidence....definitely.

And while I don't consider those of us questioning the evidence against MS to be in some kind of "not guilty crowd", I think the majority of us believe he is likely guilty based on what we know of this pair (which is considerably more than the jury in this case has to go on) but we're nervous about the fact that the evidence presented may not convince this jury that he is.

MOO

 

[XFP]

The Mob Reporter, today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k30ZlQyVvhw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBBwWQl5Bi8

 

[Shaz14]

Yes but like most of these posts you forget that he was absolutely instrumental before the crime in acquiring weapons and obtaining and testing “with bones” multiple incinerators..

And the very pertinate fact that HE ADMITTED TO KILLING A GIRL AND BURNING HER BODY Right after proudly showing a rap that corresponded exactly with all known details of this crime.

I get it. My post was wasn’t related to Winter2017’s post.... it was in regards to ABro and an-initio’s posts. It was in response to ABro saying to use common sense regarding the picture of MS smiling in front of the incinerator. I actually tried to delete this post of mine because I didn’t explain myself properly at all. I was trying to say that you can’t just use the pictures and videos of MS after the fact and using common sense say he must be guilty because he looks happy. There are other reasons he could look happy. His rap in itself also doesn’t automatically mean he’s guilty. I would hope that the jurors would use more than common sense, dig deeper and exam all of the evidence. I think MS is guilty and I just felt the need to support the jurors. No matter how obvious it might be, it can’t be an easy decision for the jurors.

I was also taken a bit back by the reference to defense lawyerish people or whatever the exact term was, because I think the great thing about this forum is that everyone has the chance to learn and debate. I think a lot of people have gone back and forth on the evidence related to MS, but that doesn’t mean that all those people are MS sympathizes or believe he’s innocent. The law is very technical and not easily understood unless closely following the charge....and even then it is a lot to take in. A lot of debate has occurred again over the past two days as people try to get their head wrapped around it.

 

[ABro]

And while I don't consider those of us questioning the evidence against MS to be in some kind of "not guilty crowd", I think the majority of us believe he is likely guilty based on what we know of this pair (which is considerably more than the jury in this case has to go on) but we're nervous about the fact that the evidence presented may not convince this jury that he is.

MOO

Often people are unconscious fence sitters because they don't want to be wrong, but if I was on a jury with a anyone who debated issues that in totality are quite clear, it would be frustrating.

I think most of the time juries are a good cross section of stubborn people, passive people and those who can bring stubborn people round. Sometimes, though, they have to compromise.

 

[ABro]

I get it. My post was wasn’t related to Winter2017’s post.... it was in regards to ABro and an-initio’s posts. It was in response to ABro saying to use common sense regarding the picture of MS smiling in front of the incinerator. I actually tried to delete this post of mine because I didn’t explain myself properly at all. I was trying to say that you can’t just use the pictures and videos of MS after the fact and using common sense say he must be guilty because he looks happy. There are other reasons he could look happy. His rap in itself also doesn’t automatically mean he’s guilty. I would hope that the jurors would use more than common sense, dig deeper and exam all of the evidence. I think MS is guilty and I just felt the need to support the jurors. No matter how obvious it might be, it can’t be an easy decision for the jurors.

I was also taken a bit back by the reference to defense lawyerish people or whatever the exact term was, because I think the great thing about this forum is that everyone has the chance to learn and debate. I think a lot of people have gone back and forth on the evidence related to MS, but that doesn’t mean that all those people are MS sympathizes or believe he’s innocent. The law is very technical and not easily understood unless closely following the charge....and even then it is a lot to take in. A lot of debate has occurred again over the past two days as people try to get their head wrapped around it.

The judge told the jury in his instructions to use common sense when evaluating the evidence as a whole.

@AdamCarterCBC
Dec 7
More
Code says they should consider the totality of the evidence -- consider the evidence around a witness, and use that to weigh what they said. "Use the same common sense you use every day to decide if people know what they are talking about, or if they are telling the truth."

So in the context of the evidence as a whole and using common sense, please tell us the reasons that MS could look so happy in front of that incinerator.

I'm genuinely curious to know what you think he's smiling about that makes sense in the context of all the evidence.

Also, no one has claimed his rap alone makes him guilty. They've said the rap, which describes events corroborated by other evidence, is part of the evidence they believe makes Smich guilty.

 

[Shaz14]

Ok everyone...I believe that MS is guilty of M1. I have gone over the evidence over and over again since day 1. I was responding to a comment made in a specific post about accessory after the fact. Then I immediately tried to delete it because I didn’t explain myself properly and knew this would happen. I believe that deciding if someone is guilty of M1 takes a bit more than just common sense. Common sense obviously plays a part but if it was just common sense there wouldn’t be a 3-4 day charge read by the judge. But what is common sense really anyway???

 

[don_quixote]

I get it. My post was wasn’t related to Winter2017’s post.... it was in regards to ABro and an-initio’s posts. It was in response to ABro saying to use common sense regarding the picture of MS smiling in front of the incinerator. I actually tried to delete this post of mine because I didn’t explain myself properly at all. I was trying to say that you can’t just use the pictures and videos of MS after the fact and using common sense say he must be guilty because he looks happy. There are other reasons he could look happy. His rap in itself also doesn’t automatically mean he’s guilty. I would hope that the jurors would use more than common sense, dig deeper and exam all of the evidence. I think MS is guilty and I just felt the need to support the jurors. No matter how obvious it might be, it can’t be an easy decision for the jurors.

I was also taken a bit back by the reference to defense lawyerish people or whatever the exact term was, because I think the great thing about this forum is that everyone has the chance to learn and debate. I think a lot of people have gone back and forth on the evidence related to MS, but that doesn’t mean that all those people are MS sympathizes or believe he’s innocent. The law is very technical and not easily understood unless closely following the charge....and even then it is a lot to take in. A lot of debate has occurred again over the past two days as people try to get their head wrapped around it.

Great post.

 

[Stumper]

I am still not getting it, that what did MS get out of this. Drugs? a temporary place to stay. The seriousness of what they did at least merited for DM to give MS one of his properties, or a very substantial amount of money, not a few thousand, but a lot more.
Then what you are saying is they lived in la la land and not the real world.
IF that is true I wonder when MS was off drugs in jail and sober how he felt.
I think DM still believes that DM is living in some make-believe world.

Good list. I'm sure others can add to it.

Yes, MS was the main contact with MWJ as he claimed to be a friend of MS' sister. We know of at least one time he was there at the Smich home when MS was not. So MS did in fact help with the procurement of the gun, several actually. DM took a picture of two of them in Feb. So why is this one gun purchase being showcased for this trial when there supposedly was no ammunition but there were two other guns already purchased months earlier? There is no evidence that a gun was used in this murder so how does procuring it tie MS into LB's murder?

MS was in on the planning/preparation of both incinerators. So was SS. SS also knew that the Eliminator was to be used for "something with bones in it". SS was at the hangar when DM showed up the next day, possibly with the "rolled spliff" in a vehicle, and likely took that weird pic of DM on the bucket. SS is not on trial here.

Was there a text between them that said "the Laura situation"? I've heard different things regarding that.

MS was apparently at Maplegate at the time of the murder but so was MM. No one even asked her if she was there or if she remembers MS going upstairs and hanging with DM for any length of time while she was told to stay downstairs. Seems to be an assumption because of her testimony about the night of the incinerator burning. There appears to be no text communication between DM and MS from the time DM claims to be going out on a mission around 7:30pm until after midnight when MS asks him where he is. There is no text from DM to MS to indicate that he's home from the mission so how do we know that MS is even aware he's back at the house? MS even eventually asks him where his is at 12:42am. DM then makes an excuse as to why he has been out of touch by saying he hit the vapes and tripped out for a bit.

Don't be out front can go a couple of ways. If DM was planning on murdering a girl he was bringing home, he sure wouldn't want MM to see that girl, even if he was willing to tell MS about it after the fact.

Unfortunately there's no evidence that MS was involved in the disposal of an old mattress or the purchase of a new one. No texts that even suggest that DM needs help moving it. And a king sized mattress would be no easy thing to move alone. Who did move it and dispose of it and what vehicle was used for that? Doesn't seem like any evidence regarding the old mattress was discovered other than it was not picked up by the delivery person.

The evidence does not suggest that the IPad was necessarily renamed the next morning. It was connected to DM's computer however. The evidence seems to suggest that MS was asleep at that time.

After the fact evidence....definitely.

And while I don't consider those of us questioning the evidence against MS to be in some kind of "not guilty crowd", I think the majority of us believe he is likely guilty based on what we know of this pair (which is considerably more than the jury in this case has to go on) but we're nervous about the fact that the evidence presented may not convince this jury that he is.

MOO

Am tired and ready for bed soon can’t touch on all your very good points though I would very much like to.

I will say that us “MS is guilty as hell crowd” are very much worried about the same thing. It will all come down to what the 12 jurors feel is truth and justice.

I think we can all agree based on many well thought out positions on both sides that MS’s conviction is up in the air as it was at TB’s trial.

I feel that it is a general consensus DM’s conviction is a done deal

 

[Shaz14]

The judge told the jury in his instructions to use common sense when evaluating the evidence as a whole.



So in the context of the evidence as a whole and using common sense, please tell us the reasons that MS could look so happy in front of that incinerator.

I'm genuinely curious to know what you think he's smiling about that makes sense in the context of all the evidence.

Also, no one has claimed his rap alone makes him guilty. They've said the rap, which describes events corroborated by other evidence, is part of the evidence they believe makes Smich guilty.

I can’t because you are missing my point.

 

[don_quixote]

So in the context of the evidence as a whole and using common sense, please tell us the reasons that MS could look so happy in front of that incinerator.

I'm genuinely curious to know what you think he's smiling about that makes sense in the context of all the evidence.

No one has claimed his rap alone makes him guilty. They've said the rap, which describes events corroborated by other evidence, is part of the evidence they believe makes Smich guilty.



So in the context of the evidence as a whole and using common sense, please tell us the reasons that MS could look so happy in front of that incinerator.

I'm genuinely curious to know what you think he's smiling about that makes sense in the context of all the evidence.

Also, no one has claimed his rap alone makes him guilty. They've said the rap, which describes events corroborated by other evidence, is part of the evidence they believe makes Smich guilty.

Because he is a degenerate *advertiser censored* high on weed in company of a psycho? Because it's programmed in people to smile when posing for a picture? Sorry, ABro, you definitely have been in the room during both trials and know more about legal arguments than anyone here, but a smile is not a sufficient reason to send somebody away for life. Doesn't cut it.

M1 is a serious thing.

 

[Stumper]

I am still not getting it, that what did MS get out of this. Drugs? a temporary place to stay. The seriousness of what they did at least merited for DM to give MS one of his properties, or a very substantial amount of money, not a few thousand, but a lot more.
Then what you are saying is they lived in la la land and not the real world.
IF that is true I wonder when MS was off drugs in jail and sober how he felt.
I think DM still believes that DM is living in some make-believe world.

Because he is a degenerate *advertiser censored* high on weed in company of a psycho? Because it's programmed in people to smile when posing for a picture? Sorry, ABro, you definitely have been in the room during both trials and know more about legal arguments than anyone here, but a smile is not a sufficient reason to send somebody away for life. Doesn't cut it.

M1 is a serious thing.

ABro is obviously not agruing to send anyone away for life over a smile so please stop with the straw man arguments

 

[ABro]

I can’t because you are missing my point.

I'm not missing your point at all. I get your point. And I disagree with your point.

Regarding the Smich incinerator photo, you stated:

There are other reasons he could look happy.

I'm asking you to please explain to us what those reasons are that Smich could look so happy.

I have never said that Smich must be guilty because of one photo nor, to the best of my knowledge, has anyone else. This is a straw man you have created.

However, the photo is a very powerful image, which is why the Crown used it at the end of its closing after summing up the evidence.

@AdamCarterCBC
Dec 6
More
Cameron says to the jury, if you still have doubt, look at Mark Smich's face in the photo of him smiling in front of the incinerator. "Look at his smiling face. Look how proud he looks in front of this monstrous machine."

 

[XFP]

Because he is a degenerate *advertiser censored* high on weed in company of a psycho? Because it's programmed in people to smile when posing for a picture? Sorry, ABro, you definitely have been in the room during both trials and know more about legal arguments than anyone here, but a smile is not a sufficient reason to send somebody away for life. Doesn't cut it.

M1 is a serious thing.

Yes, M1 is a serious thing. So is committing M1. I don't think you are defending MS and you are genuinely confused about the charge to the jury, but maybe go back and read AC's tweets on it again. Is Laura dead? Did DM kill her? Did MS aid and abet? He planned, he was present, and he cleaned up. The totality of evidence is there, but I can't pull it all out in a list. I've done my hard thinking about the matter. I don't hesitate in my decisions either, once I understand the thing I don't second guess myself.

 

[don_quixote]

Unrelated to the previous discussions. Look at it differently. What did the planning consist of, and how could MS participate? Did they use a whiteboard and MS project? "Knowing" DM, how much planning would he delegate to MS? Would he need his advice?

 

[ABro]

Unrelated to the previous discussions. Look at it differently. What did the planning consist of, and how could MS participate? Did they use a whiteboard and MS project? "Knowing" DM, how much planning would he delegate to MS? Would he need his advice?

@AdamCarterCBC
10h10 hours ago
More
"Planned means a calculated scheme or design that has been carefully thought out. The consequences have been thought over and sized up," Code says. "The plan does not have to be complicated, or sensible." #LauraBabcock

They don't have to use a whiteboard or MS project either.

 

[XFP]

Unrelated to the previous discussions. Look at it differently. What did the planning consist of, and how could MS participate? Did they use a whiteboard and MS project? "Knowing" DM, how much planning would he delegate to MS? Would he need his advice?

Ah, you don't mean this do you? Are you just feeling defensive? Did you see the picture of MS laying beside the pool?

 

[mimimic]

IMO, the incinerator evidence is definitely evidence that DM, at least, had plans to incinerate something other than garbage, and that MS was aware that what he planned to incinerate involved flesh and bone. And that MS was okay with this and was helping him to achieve that goal. Does this constitute aiding and abetting in the murder of LB? I guess since the charge is laid, the jury can infer that?

I don't see any evidence that MS was aware that DM was planning to murder and incinerate LB in particular and I wonder if the jury will see it that way. Or do they have to?

Everything else is definitely evidence of his knowledge that LB was murdered and that he actively helped to dispose of her body and cover it up.

MOO

Well , why would LE or the courts allow this without an after the fact choice, unless they know a bit more than they are sharing? Is it possible they are holding some back?
For example do they know the contents of the text messages between CN and LB or where they not recoverable?

 

[Kamille]

Am tired and ready for bed soon can’t touch on all your very good points though I would very much like to.

I will say that us “MS is guilty as hell crowd” are very much worried about the same thing. It will all come down to what the 12 jurors feel is truth and justice.

I think we can all agree based on many well thought out positions on both sides that MS’s conviction is up in the air as it was at TB’s trial.

I feel that it is a general consensus DM’s conviction is a done deal

Again, there is no MS is guilty or MS is not guilty crowd. We all believe that MS is guilty as hell. What we are questioning is what exactly the Crown has proved him guilty of.

To be honest, I'd bet that TD likely sealed the deal for a guilty verdict with his closing argument. There was no need for him to yell and bluster if he had reasonable points to make about the evidence (or lack thereof) that was being presented against his client. That couldn't have gone over well with the jury IMO. Again however, that is not sufficient reason for a guilty verdict. The "common sense" decision of the jury based on the totality of the evidence presented is going to be scrutinized on appeal if they render a guilty verdict on M1. Will it hold up?

MOO

 

[Ashley96]

I think we are on same page...we 'know' MS is guilty, we just need to know how we can say that within the parameters of instructions.

reason for the smile?

maybe he's just really happy to finally see his and DM's empire planning moving forward? He knew and was good with murder and disposing of bodies for big bucks, but he actually didn't know DM was going to do it that night with LB...but he's happy it was done because now his hopes and dreams of a criminal empire is becoming a reality and he is totally up for his role in it! ??

Having said that, I re-read all the conversations we have between the two (which is obviously a very small sample of all discussions and planning that they had on other phones and in person) and I'm going to echo Billandrew's earlier observation:

DM and MS had quite a bromance going on at the time. They lived in the same house and made plans to be ruthless together in a general criminal sense. To do that required a high level of trust between them. They had to be able to share their intimate secrets. Based on that, when I factor in everything else that happened around LB's murder, it's highly likely in my view that MS knew about DM's intent to kill LB.

There really is NO WAY DM planned and decided to do this without sharing his plans with his 'brother' and getting him to help...it was MS that countless times pushes for progress and wants to discuss plans for their evolving and escalating criminal enterprise which involved human incineration. They were in it together all the way and DM wouldn't have excluded MS in this test run (or whatever the heck this was)..it was another 'bonding' activity between the bros

 

[XFP]

Well , why would LE or the courts allow this without an after the fact choice, unless they know a bit more than they are sharing? Is it possible they are holding some back?
For example do they know the contents of the text messages between CN and LB or where they not recoverable?

I wish I could see if anyone responded to that post without having to scroll through all the pages after - but the answer to her question, "Does this constitute aiding and abetting in the murder of LB?" the answer is yes. MS was aware of what DM was planning and he helped him in the planning. The picture at the side of the pool shows he was trying to size up the incinerator - I don't have the exact text but there is reference to those pictures connecting to the one of the homemade incinerator. That is enough. There is no need to delve further once you know MS was involved in the planning and the decisions needed to make the plan a reality.