Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.12.17 - Final Charge - *Verdict Watch*

[Inspector_North]

RSBM. According to DM’s cell tower pings, he never visited his farm between July 23 and early September. That would suggest that whatever SS saw/smelled in late August had been left in there since July 23.

I wonder why he had SS refill the fuel in August? DM does not strike me as someone who ensures everything is operational months in advance. He seemed to be always operating on a ad hoc basis when it came to detail. MOO

 

[andreww]

How does TD sleep at night knowing the vile scum that he’s pleading on behalf?

Everybody has a right to representation. The crown needs to prove a case against and accused and in this case I'm not sure they have. Unfortunately in this case we are all aware that the accused is a murdering , but it could just as easily been someone like you or I. The legal system only works if both sides are given equal representation. Somebody has to represent these people and I respect TD for his work.

 

[andreww]

I wonder why he had SS refill the fuel in August? DM does not strike me as someone who ensures everything is operational months in advance. He seemed to be always operating on a ad hoc basis when it came to detail. MOO

Well we know the plan to steal the RAM had already been hatched and that the incinerator was the final piece of the puzzle. But I think amore accurate answer would be that Millard just wanted it ready at all times so it would be one less thing to worry about if the need were to arise.

 

[andreww]

CN is named in the Bosma civil suit. If CN decides to live the remainder of her life outside of Canada, what restrictions will this have on CN if the Bosma's are successful? Can she come back for visits, etc.?

Seriously, what does CN have that the Bosma's could sue for? And if she did have something, on what grounds could she be held accountable? IMO CN will be back in town by Christmas and stay until the next trial.

 

[Georgeo]

I am so angry at this too!!!!!!!

 

[andreww]

IT was a thrill kill , they killed Tim Bosma not for the truck but a thrill kill.
They killed Laura also for the thrill of it, they got off on murdering people they celebrated when they murdered and if you look at any photos of them they look very happy about it.

I disagree. If it was simply for the thrill aspect, why kill people that could be directly linked to him? Why not just abduct some random person and take them out to the farm? Millard definitely wanted that truck, and there is far more to LBs story than we will ever know. For some reason LB became a threat to Millard. Whether it was extortion or something else, there was definitely a motive behind this, and it wasn't just a love triangle. The motive for WM is quite obvious. I think their objective was to start a ruthless organized crime group, Millard being the "godfather" if you will. We have seen several texts that support this theory, talking about monthly projections and building an empire. Did he enjoy killing? It obviously didn't bother him, but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a thrill killer.

 

[Inspector_North]

Seriously, what does CN have that the Bosma's could sue for? And if she did have something, on what grounds could she be held accountable? IMO CN will be back in town by Christmas and stay until the next trial.

That is part of my question. What restrictions and impact does a civil suit have on someone like CN, or MS? Does it have any teeth on someone like CN if she becomes a doctor and decides to practice in Canada? And if she decides to practice in some other country, does she still need to meet obligations of the suit without having some kind of travel restriction when entering Canada? It seems like an asymmetrical penalty if it only hurts those with wealth.

 

[ABro]

Seriously, what does CN have that the Bosma's could sue for? And if she did have something, on what grounds could she be held accountable? IMO CN will be back in town by Christmas and stay until the next trial.

They can make her life uncomfortable. Being sued is extremely stressful.

She's not from a wealthy family. Paying for a lawyer will be a major burden. Even if she ends up having to pay, say, 50 grand of future earnings, it will be painful for her.

 

[billandrew]

I wonder why he had SS refill the fuel in August? DM does not strike me as someone who ensures everything is operational months in advance. He seemed to be always operating on a ad hoc basis when it came to detail. MOO

One possibility is that they ran out of fuel when they burned LB on July 23rd. Recall that in the morning of the 23rd, SS performed an initial burn cycle on the incinerator which lasted several hours. In the afternoon, DM searched for places to purchase propane, but he may have forgot to refill the fuel tank. I don’t recall MM mentioning that they stopped for fuel that evening.

Another possibility is that the incinerator wasn’t set up 100% correctly, and thus wasn’t working as efficiently as it could.

Whatever happened, I think the evidence suggests that some of LB’s remains sat rotting in the incinerator until the end of August.

 

[andreww]

That is part of my question. What restrictions and impact does a civil suit have on someone like CN, or MS? Does it have any teeth on someone like CN if she becomes a doctor and decides to practice in Canada? And if she decides to practice in some other country, does she still need to meet obligations of the suit without having some kind of travel restriction when entering Canada? It seems like an asymmetrical penalty if it only hurts those with wealth.

Civil suits are monetary only. So no, it wouldn't impact her at all. A judge can only award damages based on what the person has at the time. So money, house or investments. As CN is an unemployed student I really don't see what the could get from her? Future earnings maybe? I suspect the suit is more about accountability than financial gain as far as CN goes though.

 

[andreww]

One possibility is that they ran out of fuel when they burned LB on July 23rd. Recall that in the morning of the 23rd, SS performed an initial burn cycle on the incinerator which lasted several hours. In the afternoon, DM searched for places to purchase propane, but he may have forgot to refill the fuel tank. I don’t recall MM mentioning that they stopped for fuel that evening.

Another possibility is that the incinerator wasn’t set up 100% correctly, and thus wasn’t working as efficiently as it could.

Whatever happened, I think the evidence suggests that some of LB’s remains sat rotting in the incinerator until the end of August.

What is even more intriguing is that the incinerator had enough propane for two full burns, or eight hours. So SS filled it after LB when he smelled something at the farm. Didn't they have to refill it again before they burned TB at the hangar? I seem to recall Millard taking it for propane? So what were they burning with that thing?

 

[billandrew]

I disagree. If it was simply for the thrill aspect, why kill people that could be directly linked to him? Why not just abduct some random person and take them out to the farm? Millard definitely wanted that truck, and there is far more to LBs story than we will ever know. For some reason LB became a threat to Millard. Whether it was extortion or something else, there was definitely a motive behind this, and it wasn't just a love triangle. The motive for WM is quite obvious. I think their objective was to start a ruthless organized crime group, Millard being the "godfather" if you will. We have seen several texts that support this theory, talking about monthly projections and building an empire. Did he enjoy killing? It obviously didn't bother him, but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a thrill killer.

Given what DM had, why throw pumpkins at cars on the highway, or commit arson, or petty theft, or rob a convenience store? DM’s life was filled with thrills and adventures, and he had no problem spending whatever it took to pursue them.

I honestly believe that DM’s murders were underpinned by a thirst for excitement that he couldn’t quench. Of course there were other reasons to kill LB, too. She was an easy target, she was an annoyance to DM in several ways, she entered the sex trade without DM (he wanted to be her pimp), she had some “loot” on her, and she just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, i.e. she showed up just as the incinerator was about to be delivered.

 

[clefk27]

Everybody has a right to representation. The crown needs to prove a case against and accused and in this case I'm not sure they have. Unfortunately in this case we are all aware that the accused is a murdering , but it could just as easily been someone like you or I. The legal system only works if both sides are given equal representation. Somebody has to represent these people and I respect TD for his work.

Of course that’s true. Personally, I relate more to Charles Laughton, the defense lawyer in Agatha Christie’s Witness for the Prosecution, who would look his prospective client in the eye and ask him, “Did you do it?” before agreeing to take on a case. He needed to believe that his efforts on behalf of his client were in the interest of justice, and not towards a miscarriage of justice.
TD should have tried to plea bargain, although from what we now know, anything less than M1 for MS will be exactly that, a miscarriage of justice.

 

[billandrew]

Of course that’s true. Personally, I relate more to Charles Laughton, the defense lawyer in Agatha Christie’s Witness for the Prosecution, who would look his prospective client in the eye and ask him, “Did you do it?” before agreeing to take on a case. He needed to believe that his efforts on behalf of his client were in the interest of justice, and not towards a miscarriage of justice.
TD should have tried to plea bargain, although from what we now know, anything less than M1 for MS will be exactly that, a miscarriage of justice.

I find it particularly fascinating to think about what criminal defence lawyers should do when they know their client is guilty. No matter what, the lawyer should strive to ensure their client has a fair trial. But when a lawyer knows for certain their client is guilty, how hard should they fight to sway a jury otherwise? IMHO there are some interesting ethical questions there.

Also, I don’t think a defence lawyer should ever support their client in lying. I’m not accusing TD of doing that, but there are indications that MS told lies during his testimony in the TB trial. For example, when he said DM told him the incinerator was just to burn garbage, or that nobody had ever been hurt in any of their criminal escapades prior to TB. It was argued that he could only say these things because certain evidence was inadmissible, and there were lengthy legal discussions about them without the jury in the room.

 

[mimimic]

They did say in August...".another dead dear at the farm". did they not?

What is even more intriguing is that the incinerator had enough propane for two full burns, or eight hours. So SS filled it after LB when he smelled something at the farm. Didn't they have to refill it again before they burned TB at the hangar? I seem to recall Millard taking it for propane? So what were they burning with that thing?

 

[Grey-St]

Seriously, what does CN have that the Bosma's could sue for? And if she did have something, on what grounds could she be held accountable? IMO CN will be back in town by Christmas and stay until the next trial.

The bank can be court ordered to garnish her current/future wages. It's a special kind of hell that she likely deserves.

 

[redwing7225]

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2017/12/my-sweet-serial-killer-wrote-dellen-millards-girlfriend.html

Incase it hasn't been shared here...

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[Grey-St]

I find it particularly fascinating to think about what criminal defence lawyers should do when they know their client is guilty. No matter what, the lawyer should strive to ensure their client has a fair trial. But when a lawyer knows for certain their client is guilty, how hard should they fight to sway a jury otherwise? IMHO there are some interesting ethical questions there.

Also, I don’t think a defence lawyer should ever support their client in lying. I’m not accusing TD of doing that, but there are indications that MS told lies during his testimony in the TB trial. For example, when he said DM told him the incinerator was just to burn garbage, or that nobody had ever been hurt in any of their criminal escapades prior to TB. It was argued that he could only say these things because certain evidence was inadmissible, and there were lengthy legal discussions about them without the jury in the room.

These ethical questions have been largely discussed before in legal circles. If you read up on the Bernardo/Homolka case, and the ethical dilemmas their defence lawyers faced, it's quite interesting.

IMO, there are many defence lawyers that I do respect, but my respect is lessening in regards to TD. The more information that comes out, the more I believe that MS spewed lies on the stand in the TB trial, for one. He was "scared" of DM, and didn't want anything to do with the incinerator? He was pretty jolly to use the thing on LB previously. No one had ever been hurt before TB? Lie. And then TD in this trial, stating that they were burning a deer, yet we know that to be a blatant lie also, and even that his clients admitted when TB was "gone, gone" that it wasn't the first time they used the incinerator on someone. TD knew of this information, but benefited from it being inadmissible. It just doesn't sit right with me.

 

[EspressoBean]

Marlena Meneses is nothing like Christina Noudga. Meneses showed genuine remorse and testified honestly. I believe she is in large part responsible for the first degree murder verdict for Smich in the Bosma case. The Crown replayed her testimony over and over at that trial because they understood how genuinely powerful it was. Say what you will about her smiling at Smich's sister's wedding, she did the right thing in the end and appears to have learned her lesson and gotten her life on track

Her initial lies to police -- that she didn't know about the incinerator -- are understandable IMO. She wanted to distance herself from an appalling crime. It was the same thing she did with the gun on the witness stand at this trial before correcting herself almost immediately. She is ashamed. She is nothing like Noudga, who has never shown an ounce of remorse and never done the right thing.

Likewise, Michalski was nowhere near as bad as Smich. Millard sensed this too. Although he groomed Michalski for years and the latter was willing to run thieving missions, he wasn't willing to murder. Only Smich was.

That gang was filled with amoral people with no sense of right and wrong but they weren't all "just as bad." There are degrees. I don't believe anyone but Noudga knew Millard and Smich wanted to kill people and actually did.

I absolutely agree with your thoughts on this. As someone who was there at TB's trial to hear both CN and MM testify, I was very aware of MM's sincere remorse. She was in a very tough position in both of these trials and any notes of her not being truthful was most likely her feeling overwhelmed in the situation, nervous and regret. I have never believed that she had awareness about what was truly going on and I have held the same position as ABro during both of these trials - that as far as murder goes and awareness of the murders- that was a level where only DM, MS and CN were together.
jmo.

 

[Velma]

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2017/12/my-sweet-serial-killer-wrote-dellen-millards-girlfriend.html

Incase it hasn't been shared here...

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Thanks. Very interesting insight.