Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.12.17 - Final Charge - *Verdict Watch*

[mimimic]

It's easy to denounce our justice system and it certainly isn't without flaws, but I defy you to point to one in existence which is flawless.

The wealthy have always enjoyed the benefits of their justice systems and guess what, they always will. At least our does occasionally convict the wealthy, most do not.

What you really have to ask is what is the purpose of a justice system? If you believe that it actually has anything to do with justice then you will no doubt be sorely disappointed.

What?! I want to hear more on your thoughts about this. right now left as is, makes me feel sad.

 

[MsSherlock]

I believe that WM fiancee died before he did. In 2009 IIRC


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IIRC That was a different girlfriend-Elizabeth Glass

 

[Forest Hill]

I thought that SS's father-in-law (I forget his name) went above and beyond and he certainly broke the code of silence that everyone else working for DM seemed so willing to keep.

No he didn't! SS's FIL called Crimestoppers to confirm TB's VIN because he saw it in the hangar but he REFUSED to tell them where it was!

 

[Fionn]

IIRC That was a different girlfriend-Elizabeth Glass[/

Thank you. I didn’t realize there was another girlfriend after that. So many characters in this tale.


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[mimimic]

I do not disagree that compared to many other systems, we in Canada have a decent system.
However, irrespective of the flaws in other justice systems, we can, and ought, to look for ways in which our own can be improved. I personally do not believe in playing to the lowest common denominator.

We ought to start with returning our justice system to... a justice system. It is a shame if our system truly "has nothing to do with justice". I personally believe that there is still justice in our system, but where our system is erroneously tilted, the rights of the accused are primary to the rights of the victim. If for example, the accused has a past history of violence, that ought be a consideration during the finding of guilt.If for example, the accused is already a convicted murderer, he ought not have the right to cross-examine the victim or the father of the victim. If for example, there exists evidence against the accused that shows a pattern of amoral behaviour, that ought not be kept from the jurors.

What is the purpose of a justice system? Firstly, to ensure the rule of law and order prevails in our society. Secondly, protecting society from those who would do us harm. Thirdly, society speaking on behalf of victims of crime, who in many cases, no longer have the ability to have their voice heard. Sentences ought be not solely focused on "punishment", but rather, primarily focused on preventing those so inclined to do harm, from doing so. Punitive portion of sentencing ought purely be for deterrence.

The presumption of innocence, or the presumption that a person will no do society harm, ought be removed once the harm has been done and the person who did the harm has been convicted. After that, the presumption of harm from that person ought to be assumed, and only once proven to no longer be a threat to society, should they be totally free. Until that time, society ought be protected from that person. There have been multiple cases where an innocent child is preyed upon by a repeat offender pedophile who was released, with the assumption that they would not re-offend. In those cases, our system failed to protect the innocent, and that is a shame.

Totally, yes, yes and yes. Thank you for this post.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Millard texted Smich: “The BBQ is the last piece of the 3500 puzzle.”

Wow, why didn’t we hear that one in the TB trial?!

Did we not hear an edited version of this? With the 3500 left out? Or am I mistaken?

 

[MsSherlock]

The Crown was trying desperately to make this a "thrill" kill. Here's an interesting paper on "lust" killing. If we wonder what happened to the mattress- this article may explain a lot. It's hard to comprehend this type of madness. MOO
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/articles/lustmurder.htm

 

[CJPRINCESS]

He told her: You are harmful to me. He had AM keep tabs on her whereabouts. Maybe she was gonna spill that he wanted to be a pimp to Christina or anyone?

Or maybe LB knew of DMs previous crimes and was going to rat him out? Maybe she tried blackmailing him? She did state that she met a rich guy she wanted to marry that had almost as much money as him. I don’t want to talk bad about LB but this could also be what got her killed.

JMO

 

[jash]

Woooooooow! I certainly wish we had heard from her!

Agreed. More specifically, as a co-accused.

 

[billandrew]

Did we not hear an edited version of this? With the 3500 left out? Or am I mistaken?

The 3500 text message was disallowed in the TB trial, BUT Craig Fraser alluded to it when he was cross-examining MS:

“The plan that you and Dellen Millard had was to steal, was to kill and was to burn,” Fraser said to Smich, who has been testifying in his own defence for two weeks.

It was a plan worked on for more than a year and it was “a plan executed with chilling precision,” the prosecutor said.

“The Eliminator, so chillingly referred to as ‘a BBQ,’ was, in fact, the last piece of the puzzle.”

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...months-to-steal-truck-and-execute-owner-crown

 

[chaines]

A "fair" trial is one thing, but excluding evidence that solidifies the accused's "amorality" is unfair to the victims, their loved ones, and society.

Source: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/amorality



Source: https://www.thestar.com/opinion/sta...n-what-the-laura-babcock-jury-wasnt-told.html



Reviewing "what the jury didn't hear"... solidifies my position that in our current justice system, the rights of the "amoral" accused trump the rights of the innocent victim. When the justice system does not mete out full and truthful justice, then it becomes primarily a legal system, and no longer serves society for it's intended purpose. This should be corrected.

👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

 

[Kamille]

Originally Posted by billandrew
Millard texted Smich: “The BBQ is the last piece of the 3500 puzzle.”

Wow, why didn’t we hear that one in the TB trial?!

How on earth was this text considered too predjudicial or not relevant to a trial in which a man was killed for a Dodge Ram 3500 truck? :waitasec:

That is ridiculous. :notgood:

MOO

 

[ABro]

How on earth was this text considered too predjudicial or not relevant to a trial in which a man was killed for a Dodge Ram 3500 truck? :waitasec:

That is ridiculous. :notgood:

MOO

It is ridiculous. It seems the timing might have been an issue.

I

N pre-trial motions, Cameron cited a text message from July 9, 2012 -- “BBQ is last piece of 3500 puzzle” -- sent four days after the incinerator arrived at Millard’s hangar at the Waterloo airport.”My submission is the plan to kill and burn these people ran concurrently,” she argued, referring to both Babcock and Bosma.

The delay in procuring a Dodge Ram 3500 truck, like the one Bosma owned, was due to the fact Millard and Smich “didn’t get their act together,” but the plan to steal a random 3500 truck and kill its owner was hatched while Babcock’s “body lay in that barn,” Cameron said, referring to the barn on Millard’s farm in Waterloo region, some 20 minutes from the hangar.

 

[FrannieQ]

I do not disagree that compared to many other systems, we in Canada have a decent system.

... there is still justice in our system, but where our system is erroneously tilted, the rights of the accused are primary to the rights of the victim.

What is the purpose of a justice system? Firstly, to ensure the rule of law and order prevails in our society. Secondly, protecting society from those who would do us harm. Thirdly, society speaking on behalf of victims of crime, who in many cases, no longer have the ability to have their voice heard.

Please forgive my extreme edits of your very interesting post, but I've done so to make my point. Also, I beg the forum's forgiveness for conveying a view which may be less than popular in the heat and anxiety of jury determinations associated with these horrific charges and our compassion for the victims and their families. Please remember that justice is blind.

Murder trials are not conducted to bring a healing closure to bereaved loved ones. That is the task of families and communities and possibly churches, not the law. Its purpose is only and solely for society, represented by a cross section of society - the jury - to determine if the prosecutors have successfully presented a case that confirms, beyond reasonable doubt, that the accused committed the criminal acts in which they have been charged - not some other criminal act, or a previous one, or maybe some parallel ones, just the charge that is being tried. Nor are trials intended to protect society from criminals of all sorts, including heinous murderers or to insure law and order is observed. That is the task of the police.

I share the thoughts and prayers of everybody here for the family of this poor lost girl and hope beyond hope that, if these two low-life caused her death, that the prosecutors have put forward a convincing case. At the same time, while discussing justice in its relationship to trials, we must hope that a jury has not been tainted by irrelevant allegations or allowed to harbour animosity against the accused that could encourage them to arrive at a guilty verdict even in the absence of reasonable doubt. That potentially could lead to two dreadful results: 1) imprisonment of an innocent 2) a murderer who has escaped trial or punishment and is free to murder again.

Sorry for the long post. Whatever you may think of Dersowitz, Huff Post says it better than I do anyhow, at https://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/the-criminal-trial-is-not_b_893207.html

 

[JuneBug67]

How on earth was this text considered too predjudicial or not relevant to a trial in which a man was killed for a Dodge Ram 3500 truck? :waitasec:

That is ridiculous. :notgood:

MOO

Do we know for sure that it was disallowed in the Bosma trial? Or was it just disallowed in this trial? Sorry...I didn’t read this at the source so I’m not sure.

 

[brightii]

I have so much respect for the Crown in this case as Jill Cameron argued passionately to have similar fact evidence presented and to try and prevent DM from cross examining LB's dad especially along with SL and MM.

The Crown's closing IMO, was more than convincing and although there are IMO relevant things that the judge didn't allow the jury to hear, I still think the Crown's case is solid and will result, I hope, in M1 convictions for both accused.

I cannot fathom how MS can possibly be considered the lesser evil of the two accused. He is a horror in every way, IMO, and in hooking up with DM (possibly literally too - who knows?) they were the perfect match and found in one another a simpatico companion to fulfill their heinous desires for crime and for killing and disposing of their victims, IMO, and all without conscience or concern for anyone else but themselves.

Looking back tonight, when I recall DM's uncle, RB's testimony, I see even clearer why he is so filled with utter contempt for his nephew. I think everyone in DM's family has quite likely known for years and years how destructive a force he was and remains now, and I imagine that if any of them had made a concerted effort to try and reign him in they too likely would have suffered the same or a similar fate as DM's other victims, LB, WM and TB.

Upon reading of some of the things the jury was not able to hear, I am comforted by the knowledge, that as hard as these inadmissible facts must have been to hear for the Babcock family, at least they will wonder less about the details surrounding LB's death. They have now witnessed much more than most the fuller details about what happened to LB and why as they sat in on all the legal arguments too.

It is the worst kind of punishment that DM and MS can impose on the families of their victims, IMO to keep them in a constant state of questioning because the accused will not admit to their crimes.

I am hoping the Crown's case will convince the jury that M1 convictions are justified for both DM and MS.

Praying and hoping for justice for Laura Babcock and my heartfelt condolences to her loved ones. My sympathies and compassion are reserved only for the victims' families.

Sorry if my post offends anyone's sensitivities, but my heart has no room for sympathy or compassion for either of the accused.

Also, HUGE thanks to everyone for the tweets and the many insightful comments!

All MOO

 

[musicaljoke]

It is ridiculous. It seems the timing might have been an issue.

I

If the plan to steal a truck was hatched when LB's body was in the barn, then was the purpose in stealing the truck to transport bodies to the eliminator? I had assumed earlier that it was to pull racing vehicles. After transporting LB, did DM find the van inadequate for his eliminator business needs?

 

[ABro]

If the plan to steal a truck was hatched when LB's body was in the barn, then was the purpose in stealing the truck to transport bodies to the eliminator? I had assumed earlier that it was to pull racing vehicles. After transporting LB, did DM find the van inadequate for his eliminator business needs?

He wanted a truck. He could use it for multiple purposes at different times. He might have "needed" it more in spring 2013. I don't think you should look at these things as mutually exclusive.

 

[puppyraiser]

Way back when the TB case broke, a fellow poster on here created a map of the GTA with significant locations related to DM marked (his properties). There were also some other locations noted on the map relating to current missing persons cases which appeared to cluster around DM's own properties and possible travel routes to the hangar and farm. Does anyone have a link to that map or recall seeing it?

That message from DM to his cousin is concerning in that he said "killing hookers" and at the time there were some missing prostitutes in the GTA.

 

[winter2017]

Or maybe LB knew of DMs previous crimes and was going to rat him out? Maybe she tried blackmailing him? She did state that she met a rich guy she wanted to marry that had almost as much money as him. I don’t want to talk bad about LB but this could also be what got her killed.

JMO

I think she got killed for a thrill kill, CN not getting along with her gave DM the reason to kill her and he looked forward to it.
Just like he celebrated after killing Tim Bosma , this is a very sick , sick person. In a case like DM and a few other really sick murderers the best thing would be capital punishment.