Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*

[andreww]

bbm

I respectfully disagree about the idea that MS would not likely have committed murder had he not been influenced by DM. I think they were both psychologically spoiled goods, and they each had the capacity within themselves to kill people. They found in one another someone of the same demented type who had fantasies of being involved with crime and to hell with the cost to any victims. If MS didn't find a willing partner in crime with DM, he would have found one in another, IMO, and vice versa. MS was the one to my recollection that already had connections to guns through his friendship with MWJ and IMO, that association would have escalated to include who knows what for MS. For MS, and for DM, it was all just a matter of time and opportunity before their secret proclivities found the right outlet for the expression of their inner demons.

It's too easy to see MS as a victim - I fell for that trap myself - but I think prosecutors in both murder trials did a fine job of convincing the juries that both DM and MS were equally brutal and ultimately guilty. After all, both DM and MS got sound convictions for Murder 1 and that was the first step to justice for Tim Bosma and Laura Babcock, IMO. Let's hope Justice Code takes the next steps required.

All MOO.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not seeing Smich as a victim. However, what I see is a kid that was selling dime bags and spraying graffiti before he hooked up with Millard. He wasn't a choir boy, and undoubtedly would have gotten in more trouble at some point, however the likelihood that he would have become a murderer if he hadn't met Millard is pretty slim.

Just like the case of Bernardo and Homolka, one can argue that both of them played an equal role in the actual murders. If Bernardo hadn't met Homolka, it is quite likely that he would eventually kill somebody due to the type of crime he was involved in and the escalation of the violence associated with those crimes. On the other hand, if Homolka had never met Bernardo, chances are very good that she would have led a completely normal life.

 

[Jasper52]

"Right now you've got this problem. His character looks very dangerous," Code says to Pillay, about Millard.
by Adam Carter 2:55 PM

"He's committed two extremely serious murders, one right after the other, in the context of some sort of criminal conspiracy. He looks profoundly dangerous," Code says.
by Adam Carter 2:56 PM

Code says he assumes Millard will appeal this conviction. Pillay nods his head yes.
by Adam Carter 2:57 PM

 

[Busymom4]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not seeing Smich as a victim. However, what I see is a kid that was selling dime bags and spraying graffiti before he hooked up with Millard. He wasn't a choir boy, and undoubtedly would have gotten in more trouble at some point, however the likelihood that he would have become a murderer if he hadn't met Millard is pretty slim.

Just like the case of Bernardo and Homolka, one can argue that both of them played an equal role in the actual murders. If Bernardo hadn't met Homolka, it is quite likely that he would eventually kill somebody due to the type of crime he was involved in and the escalation of the violence associated with those crimes. On the other hand, if Homolka had never met Bernardo, chances are very good that she would have led a completely normal life.

It's interesting you should bring this up as wasn't Code instrumental in the Homolka deal? He obviously has a spot for the ones who get themselves tied up with the wrong people and have that Personality that allows themselves to be part of such violent and awful crimes!! It will be interesting to see what Dungey says and what Code says to Dungey! That will really be telling.

 

[JuneBug67]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not seeing Smich as a victim. However, what I see is a kid that was selling dime bags and spraying graffiti before he hooked up with Millard. He wasn't a choir boy, and undoubtedly would have gotten in more trouble at some point, however the likelihood that he would have become a murderer if he hadn't met Millard is pretty slim.

Just like the case of Bernardo and Homolka, one can argue that both of them played an equal role in the actual murders. If Bernardo hadn't met Homolka, it is quite likely that he would eventually kill somebody due to the type of crime he was involved in and the escalation of the violence associated with those crimes. On the other hand, if Homolka had never met Bernardo, chances are very good that she would have led a completely normal life.

Yeah. The argument for me is definitely not that Smich was a victim, or a dupe. But it's equally clear to me that the worst, most fateful day of his life was the day he met Dellen Millard. That he was effectively seduced and groomed into these crimes by a manipulative psychopath does not make him any less guilty, less dangerous or less culpable, but it does invite some reflection on the randomness of fate.

 

[Jasper52]

Pillay is now running through prior case law again, in an attempt to prove his point that consecutive sentences should not be imposed.
by Adam Carter 3:06 PM

 

[caseyjonesin905]

It's interesting you should bring this up as wasn't Code instrumental in the Homolka deal? He obviously has a spot for the ones who get themselves tied up with the wrong people and have that Personality that allows themselves to be part of such violent and awful crimes!! It will be interesting to see what Dungey says and what Code says to Dungey! That will really be telling.

He absolutely was.. Code could have pulled the deal for Homolka off the table, but didn't. Here's his chance to redeem himself.

 

[brightii]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not seeing Smich as a victim. However, what I see is a kid that was selling dime bags and spraying graffiti before he hooked up with Millard. He wasn't a choir boy, and undoubtedly would have gotten in more trouble at some point, however the likelihood that he would have become a murderer if he hadn't met Millard is pretty slim.

Just like the case of Bernardo and Homolka, one can argue that both of them played an equal role in the actual murders. If Bernardo hadn't met Homolka, it is quite likely that he would eventually kill somebody due to the type of crime he was involved in and the escalation of the violence associated with those crimes. On the other hand, if Homolka had never met Bernardo, chances are very good that she would have led a completely normal life.

I respect your opinion, andreww, but I think that MS was on a collision course with evil and IMO, his basest inclinations would have taken him into the realm of murder at some point with someone. It just so happened that he met DM and the rest is history. He shows no remorse, IMO. I have no doubt that MS's interest in both crime and guns would have led him to taking a life or more lives if he thought it would benefit him in some sick way, IMO.

Both DM and MS are sociopaths without conscience, IMO. In any case, we will never know with any certainty what MS's life would have been had he not met DM and vice versa. All we know is all we know, IMO.

All MOO

 

[Jasper52]

Pillay is running through case law that includes a man opening fire in a food court, or a case that involved cannibalism. He says it's these sorts of incidents where a person needs to be totally removed from society, where an offender is "beyond redemption."
by Adam Carter 3:12 PM

 

[andreww]

Agree 100%. So the question becomes whether Smich would pose a danger to reoffend if he was released when he was 50? Personally I think that if he had shown some remorse or actually plead guilty, he would have stood a better chance. As it sits, I wouldn't let this guy out, ever.

 

[Jasper52]

Pillay is now talking about how the court doesn't know exactly who committed the murder, and that in the previous cases he has put forward, that exists. He also says there is no evidence about the circumstances, or "manner of death."
by Adam Carter 3:17 PM

Pillay says he doesn't mean for his submissions to minimize the loss that the Bosma and Babcock families are feeling.
by Adam Carter 3:18 PM


Code says he doesn't think he's ever seen a first degree murder case with the level of planning he has seen in this one. He also notes that Millard and Smich then went out and did the same thing again.
by Adam Carter 3:20 PM

"it's not garden variety planning," Code says.
by Adam Carter 3:21 PM

 

[loveisthemovement]

@AnnB03
52s53 seconds ago
More
"This is not that type of case at all," says Pillay referring to other terrible cases. "Planning went on for an incredibly long time," says Code unsure if he's ever seen a similar case.

@AnnB03
3m3 minutes ago
More
"No evidence on circumstances or manner of death," says Pillay, adding this is difficult thing to talk about. "Nothing can be said that in any way minimizes the tragedy."

AnnB03
4m4 minutes ago
More
"These are the problems in a case like this," he says adding that there is much more detail in other cases that have been put to judge re consecutive sentencing

@AnnB03
5m5 minutes ago
More
"What we don't have in this case that we have in all the other cases is precisely what happened," says Pillay


@AnnB03
7m7 minutes ago
More
Says he doesn't mean to minimize severity of offence, but there must be "something more to warrant" consecutive sentencing


@AnnB03
8m8 minutes ago
More
It is only in the rarest of circumstances that we should give up on people all together, argues Pillay. Now turning to circumstances of the offence

@AnnB03
9m9 minutes ago
More
Millard and Smich still stone faced in prisoners' box. I'm next to the lawyer who helped Millard out at trial. She appears to have come to show support

@AnnB03
10m10 minutes ago
More
"Circumstances are on the extreme end of criminality," says Pillay of the cases he's citing including last Eaton Centre shooting. "In some of the cases, there's risk to the community at large."


@AnnB03
15m15 minutes ago
More
Discussing Bourque case

@AnnB03
18m18 minutes ago
More
"Murderers are often not the most dangerous people in the criminal world," says judge pointing out that murder is a special crime

@AnnB03
19m19 minutes ago
More
This is Pillay's big point. Changes were made for protection of society, to separate incorrigible offenders not for denunciation. Now citing example cases


@AnnB03
21m21 minutes ago
More
There's already a sliding scale of parole and eligibility for particularly egregious crimes with protection of society being most important factor to consider, says Pillay citing a parliamentary debate

@AnnB03
25m25 minutes ago
"He's committed two extremely serious murders...in the context of this general criminal conspiracy," says judge. "I'm going to get to character," says Pillay. Muted laughter in court.

 

[brightii]

Agree 100%. So the question becomes whether Smich would pose a danger to reoffend if he was released when he was 50? Personally I think that if he had shown some remorse or actually plead guilty, he would have stood a better chance. As it sits, I wouldn't let this guy out, ever.

I agree 100%

All MOO.

 

[loveisthemovement]

Ann Brocklehurst‏
@AnnB03

"They went out and did exactly the same thing again," says judge

 

[Jasper52]

Pillay attests there are "significant gaps" when it comes to the planning and deliberation part of this case.
by Adam Carter 3:24 PM

Pillay says he's now going to talk about Millard's character.
by Adam Carter 3:24 PM

Pillay says it's important know what "those who were around him and those who know him have said about him." Pillay again references that he should have "some light at the end of the dark tunnel that he's about to embark upon."
by Adam Carter 3:26 PM

Pillay says Millard had an "advantaged childhood" and was "advanced beyond his years."
by Adam Carter 3:26 PM

Pillay also says Millard was "close with both parents" -- one of whom, he's now accused of killing.
by Adam Carter 3:27 PM

Millard's parents divorced when he was 11, Pillay says. He's now running through his schooling.
by Adam Carter 3:28 PM

 

[Deleted member 102539]

bbm

I respectfully disagree about the idea that MS would not likely have committed murder had he not been influenced by DM. I think they were both psychologically spoiled goods, and they each had the capacity within themselves to kill people. They found in one another someone of the same demented type who had fantasies of being involved with crime and to hell with the cost to any victims. If MS didn't find a willing partner in crime with DM, he would have found one in another, IMO, and vice versa. MS was the one to my recollection that already had connections to guns through his friendship with MWJ and IMO, that association would have escalated to include who knows what for MS. For MS, and for DM, it was all just a matter of time and opportunity before their secret proclivities found the right outlet for the expression of their inner demons.

It's too easy to see MS as a victim - I fell for that trap myself - but I think prosecutors in both murder trials did a fine job of convincing the juries that both DM and MS were equally brutal and ultimately guilty. After all, both DM and MS got sound convictions for Murder 1 and that was the first step to justice for Tim Bosma and Laura Babcock, IMO. Let's hope Justice Code takes the next steps required.

All MOO.

bbm
^^ This! IMO

 

[Jasper52]

If the court orders that parole eligibility here runs consecutively, Millard will be 77 years of age in 2063 when he would first be allowed to apply for parole, Pillay says.
by Adam Carter 3:29 PM

"He's largely been isolated from most of his friends and some of his family from when he was first charged," Pillay says, but some people have still written letters of support.
by Adam Carter 3:33 PM

One of those letters comes from Millard's mother, in which she describes him as "generous and loyal to a fault."
by Adam Carter 3:33 PM

"As a mother, I'd like to say what a good son he's been to me. Always kind, loving and generous," his mother wrote.
by Adam Carter 3:33 PM

 

[brightii]

@AnnB03
52s53 seconds ago
More
"This is not that type of case at all," says Pillay referring to other terrible cases. "Planning went on for an incredibly long time," says Code unsure if he's ever seen a similar case.

@AnnB03
3m3 minutes ago
More
"No evidence on circumstances or manner of death," says Pillay, adding this is difficult thing to talk about. "Nothing can be said that in any way minimizes the tragedy."

AnnB03
4m4 minutes ago
More
"These are the problems in a case like this," he says adding that there is much more detail in other cases that have been put to judge re consecutive sentencing

@AnnB03
5m5 minutes ago
More
"What we don't have in this case that we have in all the other cases is precisely what happened," says Pillay


@AnnB03
7m7 minutes ago
More
Says he doesn't mean to minimize severity of offence, but there must be "something more to warrant" consecutive sentencing


@AnnB03
8m8 minutes ago
More
It is only in the rarest of circumstances that we should give up on people all together, argues Pillay. Now turning to circumstances of the offence

@AnnB03
9m9 minutes ago
More
Millard and Smich still stone faced in prisoners' box. I'm next to the lawyer who helped Millard out at trial. She appears to have come to show support

@AnnB03
10m10 minutes ago
More
"Circumstances are on the extreme end of criminality," says Pillay of the cases he's citing including last Eaton Centre shooting. "In some of the cases, there's risk to the community at large."


@AnnB03
15m15 minutes ago
More
Discussing Bourque case

@AnnB03
18m18 minutes ago
More
"Murderers are often not the most dangerous people in the criminal world," says judge pointing out that murder is a special crime

@AnnB03
19m19 minutes ago
More
This is Pillay's big point. Changes were made for protection of society, to separate incorrigible offenders not for denunciation. Now citing example cases


@AnnB03
21m21 minutes ago
More
There's already a sliding scale of parole and eligibility for particularly egregious crimes with protection of society being most important factor to consider, says Pillay citing a parliamentary debate

@AnnB03
25m25 minutes ago
"He's committed two extremely serious murders...in the context of this general criminal conspiracy," says judge. "I'm going to get to character," says Pillay. Muted laughter in court.

bbm

Tim Bosma's murder case demonstrates precisely just what a threat to the community at large these killers DM and MS were and remain! Their actions caused great fear in the community among everyone who became aware of the case - first with news of TB's disappearance and then soon after to learn about TB's murder. So many people were then terrified about dealing with anyone online after this case. It made people feel very vulnerable and afraid that if such a random murder could happen to a very random guy like TB - all to steal a truck - it could happen to anyone. That kind of collective terror these killers created was then and always will be a threat to the sense of safety and security of the entire community.

All MOO.

 

[Jasper52]

There's also a character letter of support from Millard's bookkeeper, Lisa Williams.
by Adam Carter 3:36 PM



I want to see the letter of support from his Uncle. :lol:

 

[FastLikeLight]

There's also a character letter of support from Millard's bookkeeper, Lisa Williams.
by Adam Carter 3:36 PM



I want to see the letter of support from his Uncle. :lol:

Are they making it into a farce?

 

[Jasper52]

Pillay says Millard is now in general population in Toronto jail. He's also submitted letters from other inmates in the jail attesting to his character.
by Adam Carter 3:38 PM

One of those letters says that Millard's life is "tougher in jail because of his notoriety."
by Adam Carter 3:38 PM

Code asks Pillay what he makes of a person who appears to be able to provide acts of kindness, but also is capable of terrible acts. "I think it's confounding your honour. It's not something that's easy to reconcile," Pillay says.
by Adam Carter 3:40 PM

Millard is also part of the Toronto Native Spirituality Program, Pillay says.
by Adam Carter 3:42 PM