Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
They're way more grounded than Millard's support system, but there is still some denial about what Smich brought to the table in this. It's pretty hard to move somebody to murder purely on the kind of manipulation Millard had mastered without other factors being present on their own. Still, it's absolutely true in my view that Millard's did create a false and seductive environment that was crafted to entice Smich and exploit his weaknesses and criminality for Millard's benefit - but there was no coercion and there is no indication that Smich was following Millard to a place he didn't want to go. I think their overarching point is that it's sad, that it didn't have to be this way for Smich but for some pretty fateful things that were mostly out of his control, is true. So yes, it didn't have to be, but it is, and now he's a convicted murderer for mostly very good and mostly clear reasons.

Smich's family makes you feel the concentric circles of loss that grow from terrible acts. The letters were good, and for me reflective of what I think has been pretty clear all along. Smich is not Millard. Doesn't mean he's not dangerous and right where he belongs, but he's not Millard. For me the people who do terrible things but don't meet the diagnostic criteria for psychopathy are the most interesting, and the ones we can learn the most from as human beings with an interest in criminal cases that can in part serve as a means to understand people and the world. It is very unlikely that people like Mark Smich, Karla Homolka, Russell Williams and other deeply destructive people are psychopaths, and yet they did horrific things. Why? What are they if they aren't that? How did this happen? It's that question that typically defines the cases I end up interested in.
Karla has been called a psychopath and I think she is. She helped murder her own sister. There are bad people, they are violent and dangerous. MS was violent and he liked even got some kick out of doing sick, violent acts. The picture of him smiling in front of the incinerator, the evil sick smile as he did the rap about Laura s murder, he derived pleasure from it. The day after they murdered Tim and were in a celebratory state, both of them derived pleasure from very sick things like burying a body. No need to know why but they are dangerous because if given the chance they would do it again.
 
Karla has been called a psychopath and I think she is. She helped murder her own sister. There are bad people, they are violent and dangerous. MS was violent and he liked even got some kick out of doing sick, violent acts. The picture of him smiling in front of the incinerator, the evil sick smile as he did the rap about Laura s murder, he derived pleasure from it. The day after they murdered Tim and were in a celebratory state, both of them derived pleasure from very sick things like burying a body. No need to know why but they are dangerous because if given the chance they would do it again.

Oh Karla has been called a psychopath alright! By lots and lots and lots of people! It doesn’t make her one, and that it doesn’t make her one doesn’t mean she caused any less pain, grief and destruction than she did.

She had the PCL-R administered to her twice in prison, once close to the beginning of her incarceration and once close to the end. The test was administered by two different clinicians and she received the same low score of five in both instances. When the state was trying to impose extraordinary conditions on her release they secured the view of another doctor that said she was a psychopath, but the judge disregarded that evidence because that doctor formed the opinion without seeing her or interviewing her in person.

We can tend to use the term psychopath as shorthand for anybody that does terrible things seemingly without conscience. But psychopathy is not just that, it is a constellation of things that almost always exist together and have to be present in specific qualitative and quantitative ways. It’s not situational and is persistent over time. That’s why Millard and Bernardo still act like like morally blind lunatics 5 and 17 years after their crimes respectively.

I know the Homolka case really well, and I’d bet my life savings that psychopathy was not her problem.
 
One of the telltale traits of a psychopath is that they are obsessed with power and control. They are manipulative by design, often charismatic, and it‘s easy for them to appeal to non-psychopathic people, form toxic bonds and make them a willing tool.

I’m not saying Homolka or Smich are the „good guys“ in this. The question I ask myself is would Homolka and Smich have carried out atrocious acts like these had they never met Bernardo/Millard?
 
One of the telltale traits of a psychopath is that they are obsessed with power and control. They are manipulative by design, often charismatic, and it‘s easy for them to appeal to non-psychopathic people, form toxic bonds and make them a willing tool.

I’m not saying Homolka or Smich are the „good guys“ in this. The question I ask myself is would Homolka and Smich have carried out atrocious acts like these had they never met Bernardo/Millard?

The short answer is no. The long answer is nooooo. (Ha ha) The situations were different, and it's something one could write pages about in either case, but suffice it to say that once Smich met Millard and formed a bond he was in a very bad situation; once Homolka met Bernardo she was in a truly extreme situation. We know less about Smich than it is possible to know about Homolka, but it is enough for me to think that it is really unlikely the necessary stars would have aligned to produce anything comparable to where their lives ended up going.
 
One of the telltale traits of a psychopath is that they are obsessed with power and control. They are manipulative by design, often charismatic, and it‘s easy for them to appeal to non-psychopathic people, form toxic bonds and make them a willing tool.

I’m not saying Homolka or Smich are the „good guys“ in this. The question I ask myself is would Homolka and Smich have carried out atrocious acts like these had they never met Bernardo/Millard?

It's nice to meet people who share my interest in this subject (most of my friends think I'm seriously weird.) The question I ask myself is whether Bernardo - who happily raped for a long time - would have killed if he hadn't met Homolka. And did he actually kill the victims? Homolka (and others of her ilk - Myra Hindley is another) are fascinating. She, not Bernardo, most definitely killed Tammy, as she administered the anaesthetic. Even if it was not intentional, she was oblivious to the risks (which, working in a vet clinic, she should have known.) I think she wanted power and control over PB, but it's clear she enjoyed the torment they caused those poor girls, based on descriptions of the videos.

If the basis of psychopathy is neurological - which I think it is - most of the research has been on males because there are many more of them, and perhaps there are key differences between sexes. High-functioning intelligent female psychopaths are much rarer, so there are far fewer studies. I suspect Homolka is bright enough to beat the tests, but I still think she is a psychopath, even if she is now able to appear to be leading a "normal" life. We may never know.
 
The short answer is no. The long answer is nooooo. (Ha ha) The situations were different, and it's something one could write pages about in either case, but suffice it to say that once Smich met Millard and formed a bond he was in a very bad situation; once Homolka met Bernardo she was in a truly extreme situation. We know less about Smich than it is possible to know about Homolka, but it is enough for me to think that it is really unlikely the necessary stars would have aligned to produce anything comparable to where their lives ended up going.
Thanks for your take on it! :)
 
It's nice to meet people who share my interest in this subject (most of my friends think I'm seriously weird.) The question I ask myself is whether Bernardo - who happily raped for a long time - would have killed if he hadn't met Homolka. And did he actually kill the victims? Homolka (and others of her ilk - Myra Hindley is another) are fascinating. She, not Bernardo, most definitely killed Tammy, as she administered the anaesthetic. Even if it was not intentional, she was oblivious to the risks (which, working in a vet clinic, she should have known.) I think she wanted power and control over PB, but it's clear she enjoyed the torment they caused those poor girls, based on descriptions of the videos.

If the basis of psychopathy is neurological - which I think it is - most of the research has been on males because there are many more of them, and perhaps there are key differences between sexes. High-functioning intelligent female psychopaths are much rarer, so there are far fewer studies. I suspect Homolka is bright enough to beat the tests, but I still think she is a psychopath, even if she is now able to appear to be leading a "normal" life. We may never know.
I find this subject fascinating, too, and I don‘t think it‘s weird at all. I think most female psychopaths have a different modus operandi. Not that they cause less havoc but they aren‘t necessarily physically aggressive or walk around murdering people. They often have a more subtle approach to reach their goals - but not less manipulative. Likewise, not all male psychopaths end up in prison and may even work in law enforcement or positions that require fearlessness. I think you can find psychopaths everywhere. There are undoubtedly female psychopaths but I don‘t think Homolka is one of them. Psychopaths are hardwired and don‘t suddenly live a different life, they don’t fear consequences. I will probably change my mind if Homolka kills again though. But I hope she won‘t. :)
 
Holmoka Hindley and Smich were all carefully selected and groomed by their "partners in crime". They were all needy and their needs were met by manipulative, power hungry and blood thirsty psychopaths. At some point, for each them, they chose to cross a personal line. The point of no return. Might be they thought they could get away with it but they were all delusional for sure and under the influence of potent narcotics.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk
 
I don't disagree with you I principle but I think it is different in practice.

As you know, in Canada we do not have the luxury of knowing what happens inside the jury room but based on descriptions of what occurs south of the border and assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that the human dynamics would play out similarly in Canada, we know that the majority usually bully the minority into submission.

Most individuals can only keep up the angry man role for so long before peer pressure and intimidation win out. That is why there are relatively few hung juries. The pressure to conform is unrelenting.

I agree with this statement completely.

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk
 
I don't disagree with you I principle but I think it is different in practice.

As you know, in Canada we do not have the luxury of knowing what happens inside the jury room but based on descriptions of what occurs south of the border and assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that the human dynamics would play out similarly in Canada, we know that the majority usually bully the minority into submission.

Most individuals can only keep up the angry man role for so long before peer pressure and intimidation win out. That is why there are relatively few hung juries. The pressure to conform is unrelenting.

This is another one of those weird contradictions.

You believe in juries (as I do).

Yet you say they often come to their decisions as a result of bullying, peer pressure, intimidation and pressure to conform.

That hardly sounds like a system one should support.

The way I see it is many people in life are decision averse. When they are suddenly placed on a jury, they are thrust into an unfamiliar situation where they are called upon to make an extremely important decision. Though they may seek, above all, to avoid conflict, they are prevailed upon by others, who understand the situation better, to come to a decision.

And, as you note, the decisions they reach are almost always right.

Given all this, do you really think it's justifiable to describe the process as you did? Juries use bullying, peer pressure and intimidation to decide cases?

While I'm sure it's no fun for a lot of people to serve on a jury, I think it's more due to the nature of the job than the factors you ascribe it to.
 
With the caveat that this is a) a US source and b) from the blog of a jury consultant who may be motivated to cast juries as fallible, here are some quoted stats on how often juries contain at lest one juror that disagrees with thier own unanimous verdict:

http://juryboxblog.blogspot.ca/2009/09/criminal-jury-verdicts-arent-really.html

tldr; 38% when the case is a single charge and over 50% when there are multiple charges
 
I am interested in how the appeals process will work in these cases. I understand that they will have a hearing and review the trial transcripts,instructions to jury,etc to ensure that there were no mistakes in applying the law, but can they introduce new evidence? For example could MS reveal further details about what happened, recant his earlier “story” to try and show that DM was the actual killer, maybe not to get a not guilty verdict but to lessen the consecutive life sentences?
will the appeals be jointly done as the trials or can they apply to sever from one another.
 
Someone mentioned this yesterday and it piqued my interest. If DM is found guilty in his dad's trial, he will lose his inheritance? In turn, does this mean that the civil suit the Bosmas launched will be for not? I admit, I am not always clear on why civil suits are launched....

After a quick look, I found this, which isn't much... but it seems there is such a law that would preclude DM from receiving the proceeds of his inheritance.

https://hullandhull.com/tag/common-law-slayer-rule/
 
Given that DM sent MS that infamous text 'I just rolled my first spliff' on July 4 morning, one might conclude that DM rolled her up in the tarp himself. It does sound like MS participated in the killing though.

I haven't been able to keep up with this thread the way I would have liked, but could you enlighten me as to how 'it sounded like MS participated in the killing'? Just curious, because in the sections that I was able to keep up with, I didn't see anything to indicate his participation in the murder.
 
I haven't been able to keep up with this thread the way I would have liked, but could you enlighten me as to how 'it sounded like MS participated in the killing'? Just curious, because in the sections that I was able to keep up with, I didn't see anything to indicate his participation in the murder.
Where have you been? I've missed your feedback!

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk
 
This is another one of those weird contradictions.

You believe in juries (as I do).

Yet you say they often come to their decisions as a result of bullying, peer pressure, intimidation and pressure to conform.

That hardly sounds like a system one should support.

The way I see it is many people in life are decision averse. When they are suddenly placed on a jury, they are thrust into an unfamiliar situation where they are called upon to make an extremely important decision. Though they may seek, above all, to avoid conflict, they are prevailed upon by others, who understand the situation better, to come to a decision.

And, as you note, the decisions they reach are almost always right.

Given all this, do you really think it's justifiable to describe the process as you did? Juries use bullying, peer pressure and intimidation to decide cases?

While I'm sure it's no fun for a lot of people to serve on a jury, I think it's more due to the nature of the job than the factors you ascribe it to.

I believe that jurors usually get it right but I'm not tied to the jury system. I understand that there are only 20 countries in the world that use juries. I have not seen any evidence to suggest that juries are better than judge alone or better than other systems such as the inquisitorial system used in France. It's a system. It's our system and it works all right but it is not without its difficulties.

Years ago, I had an opportunity to conduct a mock trial in front of a dozen Canadian university students who sat as jurors. The stories that they related about the tactics which were used in the jury room were shocking, especially when one considers that it wasn't even real.

Here are a couple of articles on jury intimidation in the U.S.

http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2010/05/the-biggest-bully-in-the-room/

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/07/17/n...light-on-jury-coercion-and-peer-pressure.html

It's a fascinating topic. Perhaps someone should write an article or two on it (hint, hint), particularly in light of recent stories about jurors leaving trials with PTSD and other psychological conditions, some of which may well be attributed to what happened during deliberations.
 
Here at WS, we are not the jury, however a bunch of people brought together by their interest in a case, we discuss details, and sleuth and theorize, and etc. This is a bunch of people just like the jurors are a bunch of people.. and we can see from threads here that some people are pushy on foisting their views onto others, being derogatory to those who disagree.. while others aren't so outspoken, and some are in fact silent altogether. It's not hard to imagine that in the event that jury members aren't all at the same level of deciding guilty or not-guilty, some are just not strong or forceful enough, or even perhaps competently able to present their views verbally in a way that presents why they might feel differently, even if they may or may not be listened to. That type of thing could be part of the reason why some jury members are notably upset when the jury is called in to present their verdict?

The subject would indeed make an interesting book or at least an indepth article, but if jurors in Canada are never allowed to talk about what occurred during deliberations, how would it even be possible for someone to gather info?
 
Having served on a jury (my husband has also served), I'm very skeptical about the percentage of jurors that feel intimidated. On the jury I served on, there were hints throughout the trial (a short one of 4 days) that there might be disagreement (you aren't allow to discuss the evidence until it's all been presented so you talk about other stuff until that point.) However, when we went for deliberation, we spent sometime reviewing the evidence and conducting several "straw polls". In the first, we had 2 dissenters, one later admitted that they voted that way so the verdict would not be unanimous. In the second poll, we all agreed on the verdict. People on my jury were very polite with each other and there was no bullying or drama at all. My husband reported the same about his jury.

You do feel some pressure about deciding (no one wants to be sequestered in a hotel overnight) although you are told to pack a bag in case you've haven't decided by the end of the day. (My husband was sequestered one night - his trial had multiple charges, the single verdict in my case was reached before the end of the day.)

Waiting up in the panel room for hours to be called down to the courtroom for selection is extremely boring. (I spent a week doing this until I was selected for a jury at the start of the second week). Being on a jury can create a big interruption and financial hardship to your life if it is a long trial as the province pays so poorly. (They do ask at longer trials if it would pose a financial hardship.)


The problem with PSTD has to do with the nature of some of the very graphic and disturbing evidence presented in some trials and the fact that jurors are not given any counselling after.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4035501/ontario-juror-ptsd-lawsuit/

In my trial, there was only a bit of evidence that was disturbing (it was a sexual assault by an acquaintance) , however the worst part was the smirks of the male high school students who were in the courtroom observing as this evidence was presented.
 
I believe that jurors usually get it right but I'm not tied to the jury system. I understand that there are only 20 countries in the world that use juries. I have not seen any evidence to suggest that juries are better than judge alone or better than other systems such as the inquisitorial system used in France. It's a system. It's our system and it works all right but it is not without its difficulties.

Years ago, I had an opportunity to conduct a mock trial in front of a dozen Canadian university students who sat as jurors. The stories that they related about the tactics which were used in the jury room were shocking, especially when one considers that it wasn't even real.

Here are a couple of articles on jury intimidation in the U.S.

http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2010/05/the-biggest-bully-in-the-room/

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/07/17/n...light-on-jury-coercion-and-peer-pressure.html

It's a fascinating topic. Perhaps someone should write an article or two on it (hint, hint), particularly in light of recent stories about jurors leaving trials with PTSD and other psychological conditions, some of which may well be attributed to what happened during deliberations.

I'm a Quebecer and lived in Europe for years so I don't in any way consider our justice system the one true thing.

My feeling is that if the adversarial system were obviously superior to inquisitorial, or vice versa, we would have all adopted the superior system.

That said, I way prefer juries over judges. While I have great respect for some judges others leave me thinking, how on earth did this person get to be a judge?

As for jurors with PTSD, it happens, but I also regularly hear from jurors who say that serving on a jury really bolstered their faith in the justice system. One told me this week how they all took a group photo outside the courthouse.

I don't like to hear juries get dissed even when I disagree with their decisions.

Juries totally rock IMO.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
122
Guests online
1,834
Total visitors
1,956

Forum statistics

Threads
601,901
Messages
18,131,602
Members
231,183
Latest member
Webster23
Back
Top