Local 6 - DP motion just DENIED

[azwriter]

BBM. Hi Azwriter. I enjoy reading your posts. To answer your question, I am not 'overjoyed' by the decision to keep the DP for Casey. While it was the decision I was hoping for based on my desire for justice for Caylee, I can't take joy in the possible death of another human being, however horrid they may be. Some days I believe in the death penalty and other days I am not so sure. One thing I am sure of is wanting to see justice served. I don't envy anyone who will be called to sit on this jury. They have a daunting task ahead of them. Thanks for asking.

lacey clementine, I too go back and forth on the use of the death penalty. However, I think we have reached a time where more and more people are pro death penalty and that's because there have been so many national crimes against children lately. And thanks to shows like Nancy Grace and JVMitchell and sites like Websleuth, the seriousness of these crimes have been placed right in our laps. In a way, we have all become a part of a TV jury where we are so familiar with the details and evidence in the death of children.
I asked the question in this thread in order to see if there is any truth that the public has become fed up with children being murdered. Outraged enough to attach the DP more readily. Thanks for your input.
And thanks for the compliment on my posts.

 

[azwriter]

I had a different take on why CA and GA hurriedly left the court room. The reason CA left the hearing was obvious to me. The state's attorneys were cagey like a fox when they got CA to declare in her depo about the extraordinary physical dexterity and prowess that Caylee possessed at such a young age. I do believe JA alluded to that fact at the hearing when declaring that Caylee would have been able to remove the duct tape if she had not been restrained. I also believe CA realized what she had done when she heard JA say that, and that was what made her so upset she had to leave the courtroom. She knew she had given the SA the ammunition they needed to strengthen their theory of how Caylee was killed. I think she got literally sick with that realization and had to get up and leave. It was only then that GA got up and left too following after CA.

What an outstanding post. You have certainly given me something to consider.
But, a thought that came to my mind is that perhaps when the duct tape was examined - there were fingerprints. But they were fingerprints of a small child. That thought gives me the chills.
Great post.

 

[sleutherontheside]

lacey clementine, I too go back and forth on the use of the death penalty. However, I think we have reached a time where more and more people are pro death penalty and that's because there have been so many national crimes against children lately. And thanks to shows like Nancy Grace and JVMitchell and sites like Websleuth, the seriousness of these crimes have been placed right in our laps. In a way, we have all become a part of a TV jury where we are so familiar with the details and evidence in the death of children.
I asked the question in this thread in order to see if there is any truth that the public has become fed up with children being murdered. Outraged enough to attach the DP more readily. Thanks for your input.
And thanks for the compliment on my posts.

I so appreciate your perspective. I have long been a supporter of the death penalty, BUT only in certain circumstances. I am of the opinion that at times, LWOP serves as more of a real punishment. I think that the DP should be reserved for perpetrators of crimes that are exceptional in that they are against the elderly, children, disabled, or for those crimes which demonstrate torture, extreme suffering and distress, or well documented premeditation. I don't see that the DP will discourage murder. That doesn't mean that I am anti DP. I just think, that given the enormous costs to the State prosecuting the case and handling the subsequent appeals, that perhaps it should be reserved for the worst of the worst. Do I think KC deserves the DP? If the State of FL. can prove the premeditation that has been eluded to, and prove the event to be as horrible as we have imagined, then my answer is YES. If there is any doubt about those details then LWOP should be enough. I have to imagine what the defendant "fears most".....that should be their ultimate punishment.

 

[Oakley]

lacey clementine, I too go back and forth on the use of the death penalty. However, I think we have reached a time where more and more people are pro death penalty and that's because there have been so many national crimes against children lately. And thanks to shows like Nancy Grace and JVMitchell and sites like Websleuth, the seriousness of these crimes have been placed right in our laps. In a way, we have all become a part of a TV jury where we are so familiar with the details and evidence in the death of children.
I asked the question in this thread in order to see if there is any truth that the public has become fed up with children being murdered. Outraged enough to attach the DP more readily. Thanks for your input.
And thanks for the compliment on my posts.

Thank you for explaining why you asked. I would like to see more public outrage over crimes against children. One of the things that draws me to WS's is the many good people who post here who are passionate about seeing justice for Caylee.

 

[SFW]

Thank you for explaining why you asked. I would like to see more public outrage over crimes against children. One of the things that draws me to WS's is the many good people who post here who are passionate about seeing justice for Caylee.

The thing that always bothers me is will it prevent further tragedies? I can only guess but I don''t think it would. I'm not sure I'm "for" the DP but if I was it would certainly be for crimes against children.

 

[cyberborg]

The thing that always bothers me is will it prevent further tragedies? I can only guess but I don''t think it would. I'm not sure I'm "for" the DP but if I was it would certainly be for crimes against children.

Agreed. I'd make an exception for crimes against children _if_ the penalty was carried out swiftly (3-5 years) based on a strong conviction -- so it becomes more of a deterrent. Something needs to be done to prevent those who prey on children.

 

[rhornsby]

Agreed. I'd make an exception for crimes against children _if_ the penalty was carried out swiftly (3-5 years) based on a strong conviction -- so it becomes more of a deterrent. Something needs to be done to prevent those who prey on children.

But at some point the exceptions would simply swallow the rule.

 

[affinity]

BBM

I'm not overjoyed.
I don't believe in the dp. I struggle with it when I hear of extremely horrendous crimes but generally I think lwop is sufficient.

If she is found guilty I hope that she does spend the rest of her days in jail.

In the end I think the dp will be overturned by the judge. Just my opinion.

The only satisfaction I do get from this ruling is that it sends a very strong message to kc. Serious, deep deep doo doo she is in and if it isn't too late perhaps a deal should be sought right about now.

I am in agreement with this. I think KC HAS had terrible counsel! Baez has only been in this because of what he *thinks* it will do for him! He sees his involvement as his stepping stone to stardom. If KC had had a decent attorney from the start she might have agreed (early on) that sticking to the charade is a bad idea*. A good attorney might have been able to see past the "celebrity" aspects of this and advise her to take a deal OR launch an insanity defense.

*I was in a court thing once--I was pretty much at the complete mercy of my attorney. She decided I should take what was offered to me. I didn't want to and I was furious! She said take the deal or get another attorney. I had to take the deal (it was not a crime--it was a divorce situation--but you know I learned right then that my options were almost all up to HER!) Imagine the money that would be saved if a DECENT lawyer had KC's case. One who would, could, should talk sense into her and her screwball family!!!

Unlike many posters here...I don't want to see KC "fry". I'd like to see her tell the truth (never happen...but it would provide such closure!**) The ideal ending for me is that KC will just go away and become a Diane Downs character...notorious and forgotten. ** Several people who have killed have and do tell the truth about what happened. They have to at least feel the relief from that. Despite the fact that KC seems incapable of even knowing what she did is wrong I bet she would benefit from the confessional aspects of telling what happened to someone! The defence circus does not help anyone--least of all their client KC!

 

[logicalgirl]

Sort of OT but has anyone seen anyone from the defense team or the Anthony's make any statements or done any TV spots since this has been announced?:croc:

 

[Themis]

So then you're saying that JS was using JA's impassioned version of the facts to base his decision...and NOT the law?

PS- and surely you were not lauging at me for trying to explain.

I would never laugh "at" you, RR0004. Never. I've had my own share putting words, definitions and common sayings in a blender and coming out with things that are very funny. My friends and family find this a source of amusement. When I realize what I've done, I laugh at them too. So, I put you on a equal basis with me. No slight intended. You are held in high regard.

The SA has to have some basis for proffered facts. This can include circumstantial evidence -- factual scenarios that are plausible and could be drawn from other facts. So, while you label JA's rendition of proffered facts an "impassioned version" they are just what was intended and the Judge takes them that way -- proffered facts; not proven and admitted facts. Yes, the Judge does take these proffered facts into consideration and applies them to the law, then making a decision based on the law.

 

[Themis]

I don't know Jack Chit about law..that's why I asked.I was wondering if he saw evidence that we haven't seen yet or is that all revealed at the actual trial?

It was based on the SA's "offer of proof" of the possible factual background that was presented in the argument of the SA.

 

[Themis]

You can find the affidavit she signed here. This was back in March when the state was trying to determine whether there was a conflict of interest because of how she was paying her legal fees. I'm sorry I don't know the answer to your question but maybe one of our legal eagles here can answer that... I'd love to know the answer too.

Normally, a written statement would be hearsay. If it is a statement against interest of a party opponent, it is an exception to hearsay. The document and statement could be introduced in evidence by one side if relevant. If so, the other side could cross examine her on it.

 

[azwriter]

The thing that always bothers me is will it prevent further tragedies? I can only guess but I don''t think it would. I'm not sure I'm "for" the DP but if I was it would certainly be for crimes against children.

SFW, that is a great point, will the DP make a difference in preventing other child murders? I have for a long time wrestled with the idea that DP is a deterent. I don't even know if studies have showed it would. I would only hope that the threat of the DP would have an effect on the crime rate.
But, the more I learn of the recent rash of crimes against children, the more I believe the DP is the only ultimate threat we can impose upon people who abuse children. Thanks for bringing this up. It is after all the starting point for a discussion on the DP.

 

[21merc7]

But at some point the exceptions would simply swallow the rule.

Thank you. That is my understanding. Clearly this is not the real topic of this thread, but, I don't know enough about the legal system to suggest what to do with child sex offenders. I am happy that not only the U.S., but other countries, are now coming to the realization that there is no rehabilitation. As it has been since human kind began, or any species really, it exists and always will. What to do about it within legal, moral bounds, I am clueless. It is a topic that makes me feel completely illogical, irrational, and best kept away until there is further education about it. ETA: Further education for me, not others.

 

[trixi491]

I'm usually anti-death penalty but this case is an exception for me. I think the main reason being that LWOP seems like it wouldn't even have the slighest affect on a sociopath like KC--she probably wouldn't even cry during the verdict (just like she was laughing with the detectives the day she was indicted). She could sit around, not have to work, get money from "fans", and stuff her face (she will most likely not be in gen pop). I think the only punishment that would actually affect her and make her "get it" would be that she was going to be executed. The fact that the life of someone so important/famous/beautiful/intelligent as hers would soon be taken would be the one thing that would truly upset her IMO.

 

[trixi491]

Yes, they left during JA's description of what may have happened. I believe CA jumped out of her chair right about the time he was saying that Caylee must have been restrained. GA followed her out the door. The moment was hard-hitting and emotional so I hope I am remembering the moment correctly but I feel very certain that was the precise moment that CA jumped up.

I also think they wanted to make a scene. If it was so hard to hear the words and watch KC on the monitor, it's simple--cover your ears and don't look at the monitor. They definitely wanted to make a scene and get attention for that.

 

[mitzi]

Ask and ye shall receive

Edited to add I just noticed it looks like Cindy is winking at Baez! LOL

Oh WOW! The first one of CA looks just like KC's smirk! Good job Eidetic!

 

[21merc7]

I also think they wanted to make a scene. If it was so hard to hear the words and watch KC on the monitor, it's simple--cover your ears and don't look at the monitor. They definitely wanted to make a scene and get attention for that.

Yes, this is part of damage control. Just like the most recent Today Show nothingness. They do have people telling them how to react and when. You are correct. (Sad, but true.)

 

[seeing_eye]

I also think they wanted to make a scene. If it was so hard to hear the words and watch KC on the monitor, it's simple--cover your ears and don't look at the monitor. They definitely wanted to make a scene and get attention for that.

I have to respectfully disagree. This may be the one instance when CA did not want to create a scene. I think she would have preferred the spotlight not be on her at that precise moment. I don't think CA's reaction was from the graphic words of JA as he was describing his theory of how Caylee was killed. I think she had become physically sick when she realized she had provided a rather large nail for Casey's coffin.

 

[autumnlover]

What an outstanding post. You have certainly given me something to consider.
But, a thought that came to my mind is that perhaps when the duct tape was examined - there were fingerprints. But they were fingerprints of a small child. That thought gives me the chills.
Great post.

The hair on the back of my neck literally just stood up. The only fingerprint evidence we know about is the lack of CA's, GA's and LA's on the duct tape. We do not know about KC's and Caylee's. I still think that there's blockbuster evidence about the duct tape that we don't know about yet. The fact that Caylee's fingerprints might be on it will keep me up tonight.