Logistics Analysis: How to get child's body into a stroller while wrangling a toddler

[Nonni Brenda]

sorry if this has already been suggested, but...maybe baby K wasn't with her, but like someone said earlier, she stashed the stroller folded up hid somewhere..... Then convinced Kyron that if he would sit in stroller very still, and covered up with blanket, while she strolled him out, he could skip school and have a day off. speculation only.

 

[pufnstuf]

Again, have you guys seen the stroller? The only stroller that the baby is photographed in is a lightweight umbrella stroller. At the zoo. At the park. At the restaurant. Always in the same stroller. It's not a perambulator. It's not a big stroller. It's one with a tiny area underneath that MIGHT accommodate a blanket. Certainly not a 50 pound child.

 

[BeanE]

I wanted to bring the quoted information over to this thread for consideration, since it references Terri bringing a stroller to the school on another day.

The poster's knowledge of this is based on her having seen the pics on Terri's Facebook, which is now private, and can't be linked to. Kimster kindly gave me permission to quote this post.

Terri brought the baby to Kyron's classroom in her stroller. It was her first birthday, celebrated in Kyron's room.

 

[debs]

Again, have you guys seen the stroller? The only stroller that the baby is photographed in is a lightweight umbrella stroller. At the zoo. At the park. At the restaurant. Always in the same stroller. It's not a perambulator. It's not a big stroller. It's one with a tiny area underneath that MIGHT accommodate a blanket. Certainly not a 50 pound child.

I was just about to post this. Princess PeePee has one she uses to play with her baby dolls now. When I bought it, 3 years ago, it was to take her around the State Fair. The thing was a piece of ..... well. Anyway, this was brand new, wheels not likely to have wonkified themselves (like they are now). So now we're supposed to believe that Terri disabled Kyron somehow, tucked him into this stroller with a piece of cloth not larger than 2 feet long and less than a foot wide, hid him with a blanket, and balanced a toddler in her arms while trying to steer this contraption with notoriously wonky wheels (the whole manufacturing of the contraption, not just Terri's), down stairs, across a parking lot (or alternatively down the stairs and around a school track to a gravel service road) and no one noticed?

Okay, I can suspend my disbelief for a little way along this thought process. It stops at disabling Kyron somehow. The stroller is just too 'out there' for even me.

 

[pufnstuf]

I wanted to bring the quoted information over to this thread for consideration, since it references Terri bringing a stroller to the school on another day.

The poster's knowledge of this is based on her having seen the pics on Terri's Facebook, which is now private, and can't be linked to. Kimster kindly gave me permission to quote this post.

Sure. I saw it too. Small lightweight umbrella stroller. One that would have been far too small to carry an 18 month old toddler with a 50 lb seven year old tucked in somewhere. There's just nowhere on that stroller to put anyone beside the toddler, and she's not far from out growing it.

 

[MsFacetious]

My daughters are precisely the same size as Kyron.

3'8-3'9
48-50lbs

I have read the whole thread and I think the jogging stroller thing has been put to rest...since we know what kind of stroller Terri had.

Have we put to rest the idea that Terri carried a sleeping Kyron out, like on her shoulder, with or without an umbrella? Or is that still on the table?

My youngest child also loves to sleep in the bins... we use them for toys and storage. They are 18 inches deep and then 18 x 32. Plenty big for my kid to fit in...not as cute as it used to be though.

I am asking here....as a photographer, with another photographer in the house, with 2 children the same size....are there any "experiments" anyone would like me to try, that would be helpful. (Obviously, I would have pictures of said experiment.)

I tend to believe that he walked out as well. But, I am more than willing to try out other things since I have both the children and the camera to do it. My oldest daughter sleeps like a rock, so she would be the best one to help with this.

Just let me know if anyone has anything they'd like tested out.

 

[BeanE]

My daughters are precisely the same size as Kyron.

3'8-3'9
48-50lbs

I have read the whole thread and I think the jogging stroller thing has been put to rest...since we know what kind of stroller Terri had.

Have we put to rest the idea that Terri carried a sleeping Kyron out, like on her shoulder, with or without an umbrella? Or is that still on the table?

My youngest child also loves to sleep in the bins... we use them for toys and storage. They are 18 inches deep and then 18 x 32. Plenty big for my kid to fit in...not as cute as it used to be though.

I am asking here....as a photographer, with another photographer in the house, with 2 children the same size....are there any "experiments" anyone would like me to try, that would be helpful. (Obviously, I would have pictures of said experiment.)

I tend to believe that he walked out as well. But, I am more than willing to try out other things since I have both the children and the camera to do it. My oldest daughter sleeps like a rock, so she would be the best one to help with this.

Just let me know if anyone has anything they'd like tested out.

Thanks, Ms Facetious. I know from doing a quick search that there is interest in exploring the use of a bin or container, but I don't know if expanding to that would be considered off-topic. You could PM a mod and ask if the thread could be expanded. They may want to change the thread title, or they may prefer a new thread.

I think it may be beneficial to use some of the info and ideas in this thread, for continuity, as some of the same logistic considerations would apply, e.g., how to wrangle a toddler and a heavy bin/container at the same time.

 

[SweetLaura286]

So honestly I'm really not into this theory, however I just had to run in and tell you about what I saw at the mall the other day. There was a five year old, sitting in a baby carseat in a stroller. He was just relaxing in there, he had his legs all scrunched up, but he looked pretty comfy. Yes 7 is different than 5, but I found it very interesting. To be more clear, it was a matching stroller & baby car seat set. The baby car sear is set on the stroller backwards. There is a bubble hood that can cover 3/4s of the seat. Baby K would be about a 6-12 months too old for this type of carseat, but I am sure that her mother might still have it around.

 

[MsFacetious]

Yeah, that's why I mentioned the bin or container. I know it's been discussed.

To clarify, I am talking about just the "big tupper ware" looking ones. Not the ones with wheels. There is no way you could wrangle these ones with a kid in them. Though I do have pictures of a kid in them...one likes to sleep in them.

The ones with wheels, or another kind of rolling container... I see no reason why you couldn't wrangle both that and a toddler. I don't have either a toddler or a rolling bin to do a test...but I have wrangled 100lbs worth of rolling suitcases plus 60lbs worth of toddlers AND both of their car seats....through an airport.

One 50 pound rolling container and one toddler....not a problem. And I am 5 foot nothing.

I would actually prefer that, for moving that much weight...to a stroller or just about any other container. It would be much easier than a stroller. Or a rolling suitcase. A large plastic container is easier to move, in my opinion.

That's just me though.

Thanks, Ms Facetious. I know from doing a quick search that there is interest in exploring the use of a bin or container, but I don't know if expanding to that would be considered off-topic. You could PM a mod and ask if the thread could be expanded. They may want to change the thread title, or they may prefer a new thread.

I think it may be beneficial to use some of the info and ideas in this thread, for continuity, as some of the same logistic considerations would apply, e.g., how to wrangle a toddler and a heavy bin/container at the same time.

 

[Calliope]

I don't see her risking being seen lugging a kid-size container out of the school.

 

[surrogatemom]

Stuffing him in the under carriage of the stroller maybe? I have three kids VERY close in age (7, 7 and 6 now). When they were younger, one of my boys would often crawl into the storage basket under our stroller to be funny. He was probably 4-5 years old at the time, 35-40 lbs. He fit easily. His younger sister would sometimes try to squeeze in there with him but I never let her get completely in.

Now pushing a stroller with a 50 lb child in it? Possible but hard to maneuver in most any stroller. Our double stroller was great, turned on a dime. But when I had two 30 lb toddlers in it? Doable, yes, but it was a chore. Pushing it across a driveway (even a smooth topped driveway)? VERY difficult. The easiest flooring to push it on was a waxed tile floor. If I pushed my kids in it outside, it was obvious that I was having to put some muscle into it (and I'm not a small/unfit girl!).

Then again, if I had adrenaline pumping through me, maybe I could push 50 lbs without issue.. :/

 

[TxLady2]

awwww txlady, You're sweet. It doesn't hurt my feelings. I put this out there to get feedback, because feedback is what I wanted. If we want to figure out what happened to Kyron, we've got to put out our thoughts, and hash out the possibilities and likelihoods and probabilities, no matter what those are.

Hugs,
BeanE

That's good to know!!

I guess it's good to consider all possibilities, but my thoughts are, why make it so much more complicated than it has to be? I'm just TOO logical, I guess. While I am willing to consider all theories... I like to see some basis in fact.
It would have been just way too risky to do the deed at the school.
No hard feelings... I just can't buy this one... Sorry!

 

[Calliope]

That's good to know!!

I guess it's good to consider all possibilities, but my thoughts are, why make it so much more complicated than it has to be? I'm just TOO logical, I guess. While I am willing to consider all theories... I like to see some basis in fact.
It would have been just way too risky to do the deed at the school.
No hard feelings... I just can't buy this one... Sorry!

It's my fault. I asked in another thread if Terri had been pushing a stroller.

 

[TxLady2]

Fact based speculation is what WS is all about. We gather the known info from credible sources, and then we build theories and hash them out.

The known info in this instance from MSM is that Terri had the baby at the school, as reported by Kaine. From that people, were speculating in another thread, based on what I certainly saw as a reasonable premise, that Terri may have had a stroller for the baby at the school.

People have also speculated similarly regarding a container, based on the known fact that Kyron's project was taken to the school and had to be taken home, with what I see as a reasonable premise, that a container may have been used for ease of carrying the project and/or to protect it from damage.

Both the stroller and the container are things that would not be out of place or unexpected in these scenarios. What makes a balloon theory ridiculous (your word) is that it would be far out of place, unexpected, with no logical reason for a balloon to be there.

I thought the discussion I happened across earlier today in the other thread about a stroller was worthy of exploration. Obviously, others did too - they were already discussing it, and a quick search brought up pages and pages of posts about a stroller. It was off-topic in the thread I happened across it, and so I decided to create a thread so the people who'd shown an interest over the weeks, as well as myself, could explore it further.

Are threads for fact based speculation helpful to Kyron? Is developing theories and analyzing the information we have available in these cases helpful to victims? Well, I don't know for sure, but I have to say yes, because I know that, specifically from information developed and analyzed here, many tips are sent in to LE, and I know that some of those tips have helped LE in investigating cases, and I believe that those investigations were helpful to those victims.

Perhaps not though. Perhaps what we do on WS are just futile exercises, with no benefit to victims. I don't think so, but it could be.

Obviously, this was important enough to you to come out of lurkdom to post your thoughts and ask your questions about it. So I wanted to be sure to respond. I don't have a whole lot of answers to anything any more , so I doubt my response has been helpful to you, but I hope in some way it might have been.

Thanks for your feedback, marigold.

Well said!!
I was not aware that the stroller possibility had been mentioned in another thread, so forgive me for not knowing it was discussed before.
We don't all have to believe the same theories, and who knows? Somebody might just hit on the right one!

 

[BeanE]

I don't see her risking being seen lugging a kid-size container out of the school.

Suppose it's on wheels, with a lid, and she can pull it like a wagon with one hand, while holding the baby in her other arm?

Easier to find an excuse for at the end of the day, back in the school office with Kaine, when the secretary says "But we thought you took him for a doctor's appointment", than having been seen leaving the school with a walking Kyron.

Scenario A (wheeled bin):
Terri: "Oh no, the doctor's appointment is next week. I left him in the hallway walking to his class."
Suspicious Secretary: "Okay. Hey. Btw. A parent saw you leaving with a wheeled bin. What was that for?"
Terri: "Oh nothing. I had just brought that because I was confused and thought I was supposed to tote his tree frog project home with me. I emailed the teacher when I got home to find out when I was actually supposed to pick up the project, but I never heard back from her."
Kaine: "Oh yeah. She got that wheeled bin last week. Nice bin. Protects the diorama and she can lug stuff around while she's wrangling the baby. Now wth did you all do with my son? Where is he?"
(safe. easy peasy. only has to produce the bin from the truck or from home. Kyron's hair etc easily explained - the bin is from their house.)

Scenario B (walking Kyron):
Terri: "ummmm... doctor's appointment? No... I left him in the hallway walking towards his class."
Suspicious Secretary: "Miss Porter said you told her Kyron had a doctor's appointment. And a parent saw you leave with him. Both of you together."
Kaine: "Terri, you said in the car you left him in the hallway walking toward class. What's this about a parent seeing you leave with him? And a doctor's appointment? Wth's going on? Did you leave him in the hallway, or did you take him with you to an appointment? Something's not right here."
Terri: "ummmmm.... well....."
(busted. arrested. game over. because she can't produce live Kyron.)

I realize with Scenario B (walking Kyron) there have been a few posts contending this is no problem, but I haven't seen it explained how Terri gets out of this situation.

 

[Donjeta]

IMO, if anything happened to Kyron at the school to make him dead or unconscious and if it was Terri to do it, it happened probably in a fit of rage with unfortunate consequences. I see no advantages planning to do the deed at school on a crowded day. If you're planning to make the body disappear anyway you can just as well wait to commit the act of violence when you're at the peaceful disposal spot of your choice, it's less risky.

If it was unplanned she probably wouldn't have had a large container with her since the project was delivered on Thursday and I don't know if the teacher would have allowed them to leave large containers cluttering up her classroom when large crowds were expected to be there on Friday. If it was unplanned she also wouldn't have thought to bring a sturdier stroller capable of accomodating a seven year old but would have been there either with her regular lightweight umbrella stroller or none. So unless they always had a large bag or a box in the truck or one of the school garbage bins or something another visitor brought is missing it's unlikely IMO that Terri took him out in any kind of container.

Edit: but BeanE has a good point, above... I may have to rethink this.

 

[Tuffy]

Suppose it's on wheels, with a lid, and she can pull it like a wagon with one hand, while holding the baby in her other arm?

Easier to find an excuse for at the end of the day, back in the school office with Kaine, when the secretary says "But we thought you took him for a doctor's appointment", than having been seen leaving the school with a walking Kyron.

Scenario A (wheeled bin):
Terri: "Oh no, the doctor's appointment is next week. I left him in the hallway walking to his class."
Suspicious Secretary: "Okay. Hey. Btw. A parent saw you leaving with a wheeled bin. What was that for?"
Terri: "Oh nothing. I had just brought that because I was confused and thought I was supposed to tote his tree frog project home with me. I emailed the teacher when I got home to find out when I was actually supposed to pick up the project, but I never heard back from her."
Kaine: "Oh yeah. She got that wheeled bin last week. Nice bin. Protects the diorama and she can lug stuff around while she's wrangling the baby. Now wth did you all do with my son? Where is he?"
(safe. easy peasy. only has to produce the bin from the truck or from home. Kyron's hair etc easily explained - the bin is from their house.)

Scenario B (walking Kyron):
Terri: "ummmm... doctor's appointment? No... I left him in the hallway walking towards his class."
Suspicious Secretary: "Miss Porter said you told her Kyron had a doctor's appointment. And a parent saw you leave with him. Both of you together."
Kaine: "Terri, you said in the car you left him in the hallway walking toward class. What's this about a parent seeing you leave with him? And a doctor's appointment? Wth's going on? Did you leave him in the hallway, or did you take him with you to an appointment? Something's not right here."
Terri: "ummmmm.... well....."
(busted. arrested. game over. because she can't produce live Kyron.)

I realize with Scenario B (walking Kyron) there have been a few posts contending this is no problem, but I haven't seen it explained how Terri gets out of this situation.

Kyron walking out with Terri: easy - no one sees them leave the school parking lot. Terri makes sure no one sees them as she drives away. If anyone mentions that they see them leave the building, she says they were going out to the truck to retrieve something she left in the truck and were coming back in once she got it. I think if they left in the midst of all the chaos, it would be hard to say if they just went out front, or if they left the school grounds.

 

[BeanE]

Kyron walking out with Terri: easy - no one sees them leave the school parking lot. Terri makes sure no one sees them as she drives away. If anyone mentions that they see them leave the building, she says they were going out to the truck to retrieve something she left in the truck and were coming back in once she got it. I think if they left in the midst of all the chaos, it would be hard to say if they just went out front, or if they left the school grounds.

So the only way that scenario can work, is if the suspect further embellishes their story, further denigrates their credibility, and casts further suspicion on themselves. That doesn't work for me. I don't believe she would take an even higher risk like that. If she did this, it was planned, and she wanted it to work. Just MOO.

 

[miabellamoure]

Do we know for sure if Terri even used a stroller that day?

Or more importantly...had baby K with her "inside" Skyline Elementary that day?

I understand Kaine reportedly stated Terri had baby K with her that day but, was she actually SEEN inside the school with Terri & Kyron or was she outside in the truck with a mystery person...DDS?

Do we know this for certain yet? Because if not...the stroller idea might be for nothing. Why would Terri be wheeling an "empty" stroller with Kyron into the school that morning IF baby K is not with them but, maybe still in the car cuz the weather is drizzly?

 

[Morag]

...

IF baby K is not with them but, maybe still in the car cuz the weather is drizzly?

I'll bet it takes more than a little drizzle to keep a Portland baby inside!