long weekend break: discuss the latest here #113

[Donnareit]

No one sits on the floor of their shower without a reason, of course. However, remember how Jodi said when they were fighting one time he ran upstairs and was banging his head on the linen closet door?

Well, here's my thought. If Travis didn't KNOW that Jodi was there (see, testimony of DB about secret shower pixs she took of him; and Jodi's own adamancy that Travis would NEVER even let her WATCH him shower let alone take pictures of it), he might have turned and caught her taking the pictures (see pix of shocked look followed by the one hanging his head down - ELLY MAE 1312). Rather than roaring out of the shower in a rage, I see him slowly sliding down into that position where he maybe sat for a few seconds and banged his head against the shower wall behind him.

Then he turns and looks right into the camera with that expression of such pathos. She opens the door - flash, pix of torso - he is getting up to get out (maybe reaches to turn off shower; maybe reaches up to get assist) and she stabs his chest thinking he will collapse and die (like the movies depict). But he grabs the wound and comes out of the shower.

Now he turns his back to her at the sink (see, Travis blog about how he handled his mother's blows), and while he is coughing out blood, Jodi is stabbing the grouping on his back and the wounds behind his ear and on scalp. JODI is the one saying, "*advertiser censored**ing kill you, ***** (my kids call both women and men by that term).

Travis tries to stop the knifing with his hands, turning to face her he is stabbed in the front, but also he is trying to escape down the hallway. JODI thinks you are not "going to get help from the neighbors." He falls on all fours at the carpet edge saying, "I can't feel my legs." There is and has been a lot of screaming going on so Jodi (standing) reaches down and slashes his throat. Travis (again struggling to get on his feet at the moment of the cutting) falls over backwards. Jodi is backing up and hits the camera - Travis is finishing his fall with one arm slightly raised. This is what I see on that picture because there is an immense amount of blood running over his shoulder.

Travis is making noise still because of his death throes (while working victim services in a probation and parole department, I read many pre-sentencing reports where the perps say they escalated the violence to make the victim stop making "that sound"). Jodi DOES get the gun from the closet because the closet door closest to the shower is about where she would be standing at this point (her purse is probably by the inside closet door where she set it when she started taking the pictures). Bang, she shoots him (the casing ejects and lands atop the blood by the sink). Travis is a bloody mess. Jodi is a bloody mess, and the shower has been running with the door open through it all. So she hauls Travis and herself into the shower and starts the clean up.

Jodi is full of rage alright, but it is from her narcissism, not the pent up anger of a battered woman. Travis never lifted a hand against her except to fend off the blade.

Elly Mae posted an amazing collage at 1312 that added one more piece - so I edited my post. The addition is to show the shocked look Travis has.

 

[Midnight Rambler]

One thing that bothers me about this dragging photo. She is dragging him to the shower but the position of his right arm seems to be out of position for this scenario. It seems to be in front of his chest. If he was being dragged by the arms they would be stretched out towards the direction of being dragged. Also it's obvious that his throat has already been slashed in this photo. So why is his head positioned like he is actually resting his chin on his chest or trying to raise his head up. This would seem to be impossble because the throat slashing/ near decapitation would have severed almost all of the neck muscles. If anything his head would be dangling backwards toward the floor while being dragged.

 

[Sleuth5]

Why was the female detective that was questioning JA trying SO HARD to get JA to make up an excuse for her actions? Suggesting that she was a victim of circumstance, that she got caught up in something and it went too far, and even suggesting that maybe JA was there but that someone else did it. Why would she keep saying things like, "you don't seem like a cold-blooded killer" and "how do you want to be portrayed, as a cold blooded killer or as someone who is the victim of circumstance?" She was essentially offering up various scenarios and begging JA to pick one.

I don't understand her method of questioning JA at all.

It can be a very useful tactic. They had her number by that point and could see she was extraordinarily self-centered. If you appeal to a subject's ego like that, you invite them to freely protect themselves by constructing a lie you can easily disprove via the evidence. They weren't getting anywhere with the direct approach, so that's why both of them were trying to get her to create some fictitious scenario -- it gives you something with which to work. In the event she halts the interrogation by requesting an attorney, you still have contradictory statements which will be helpful in the prosecution.

 

[Truth Detector]

Tanya Young has changed the title of the article. In the comment section she claims the title was a misprint. It now reads:
Survey: Results Suggest Acquittal Nor Death Likely in Jodi Arias Murder Trial

Uh, right.

I wonder if the other errors in her article are "misprints" as well.

 

[G&AMom]

I don't know, seems reasonable to me. I think there's a little too much being made of the whole bishop thing. Travis was a human being. He may have simply succumbed to temptation. Assuming that there was something superhuman about him, or attributing absolutes to his behavior (he would never do that after confessing to the bishop) doesn't seem consistent with what we already know to be true.

I am not bashing the man. I am simply saying that laying down the religion card as though that would have been the last word on the subject is not consistent with the facts as we know them.
:cow:

It's my understanding that to Mormons, it is a big deal. Not like confessing to a Catholic priest. According to one Mormon who posts here, being disfellowshipped would be announced in church, which would have been a whopping big deal to Travis. The question to me is whether in fact Travis went to his bishop. A friend of his said in a TV interview that Travis told him he'd gone to his bishop -- as far as I know, that's the only "proof" we have that he did.

I think this is an aspect of the Mormon religion that really impacts Travis' behavior and this trial. It appears that almost all of Travis' friends were Mormon. His social life revolved in large measure around the Mormon church. He was looking for a Mormon wife, which is why he wasn't going to marry Jodi. I don't think you can leave out the role Mormonism played in what happened here.

I agree with you that Travis was a normal guy and he certainly would not have been the first person to have trouble with the church forbidding premarital sex! And I also agree that it's a mistake to say that anyone would "never" do something. That's why I'm not totally tossing my theory. To me it seems possible that the desire to be a decent guy and allow Jodi to "apologize" could have overridden the knowledge that he shouldn't be seeing her. JMO

 

[JRS_JD2L]

One thing that bothers me about this dragging photo. She is dragging him to the shower but the position of his right arm seems to be out of position for this scenario. It seems to be in front of his chest. If he was being dragged by the arms they would be stretched out towards the direction of being dragged. Also it's obvious that his throat has already been slashed in this photo. So why is his head positioned like he is actually resting his chin on his chest or trying to raise his head up. This would seem to be impossble because the throat slashing/ near decapitation would have severed almost all of the neck muscles. If anything his head would be dangling backwards toward the floor while being dragged.

She might be maneuvering him to get him in a position to drag him to shower, but since his feet are toward the bathroom, she cannot be dragging him toward the shower at that point.

 

[SuperTmo]

http://s922.photobucket.com/user/SoulShynz9293/media/shower_travis_murder_pics_xtralarge.jpg.html

http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/wasthinking/media/collage_zps00e64932.jpg.html

Wow. These photo collages are really helpful; thanks for linking to them! I still go back and forth on whether I think the shower photos were posted or not. I think that in most of them he just looks like a normal guy in the shower, not a guy in a photo shoot in the shower. The first few on the second link seem like they could be posed, but it just feels like for most of them he isn't engaged in the photos like someone trying to replicate a Calvin Klein ad probably would be (I don't know... I'm a photographer and I've never taken photos of someone in the shower...). It doesn't seem like a mutual experience, if that makes sense.

The photos are such bad quality that it makes me think that either JA was a TERRIBLE photographer and had her camera on manual but was working fast and not adjusting for the lighting, or the flash was off for most of them. Or maybe that is just how they look after the card was damaged in the wash? Who knows. They just don't look like purposeful photos that a "professional photographer" would take... they are blurry and not composed in a way that would make ANYONE believe JA and Travis were trying to replicate a photo shoot. She has NO photo composition skills at all.

 

[Truth Detector]

Thank you for your response. I had read at another site that a check on his background/personal history kept coming up blank at a certain point in the recent past, either sealed or nonexistant.

You're welcome.

This isn't to say that aliases/identifications are never -- inadvertently or otherwise -- recognized as valid, or even that courts are not hoodwinked from time to time. They certainly are.

But I doubt that Juan Martinez (and his staff), who has referred to this individual on record and in court before the jury as "Matt McCartney", has it wrong. Unless the guy's in a witness protection program or some such nonsense. Is he a law enforcement informant [drug, maybe]?

Perhaps, but, I doubt it.

I think he's just one of your run-of-the-mill JA ex-es who survived to do her bidding.

 

[G&AMom]

Doesn't she admit they are her pants and that she has them at home? Two pairs in fact?

First she says she has pants like the ones Flores describes, then she says they're not hers, and tries to point out the differences, but Flores has already told her they're searching her house & belongings -- I think it's a bit of panic on her part.

 

[callyn]

And this is how I saw it without Jodi until Elley Mae posted the smaller picture.

I'm late to this conversation, could you tell me what you see in the smaller picture. I looked at it and see exactly what is in the reenactment, but I'm open to seeing differently. It's kind of like a Rorschach test

 

[ElleElle]

In the pic Jodi has sweat/yoga pants like this

S she has pants with a stripe on them such as sweat pants?

 

[leebee52]

The real thing about that shower dragging scene is that it's quite obvious the leg/foot/striped pants belongs to a woman. NO other woman exists who would have done that to Travis but JA. End of story.

 

[G&AMom]

Yes, and age claims she didn't know how close it was to Travis, and claims she purposely wanted to avoid being in his ward -- yet she knew she was moving within his ward boundaries. I think she moved close to him intentionally to put pressure on him, to monitor him, and to position herself so she could transfer to his ward because she planned to manipulate her way into his ward.



She read his emails cuz she had his passwords. What's interesting to me is that while she was talking to the female detective, she came right out and said she found out stuff about Travis in part because he told her, but some things she found out by reading his emails because she had his password for his email account -- like it's totally normal behavior.



I missed this part, but I do think Travis bad mouthed Jodi to the Hughes to make them think he was no longer in any kind of relationship with her because that's what the Hughes wanted. Travis had some boundary issues too.


I agree - she never thought about it because she wants what she wants and she'll get what she wants by any means possible. She doesn't seem to understand how totally aberrant her behavior is and because of this she fails to even try to cover for some of her behavior. If she had any insight into her own behavior, she would know how others perceived her and she would have understood that EVERYONE would immediately suspect her for murdering Travis.



Never. She doesn't care too much - I don't even think she cares a whole lot about being in jail or being convicted. She's satisfied that she eliminated what she perceived to be the source of her pain. That matters a whole lot more to her than anything else IMO


Yep, and she had a hard time even going along with Nurmi who was trying to lead her to give victim-y testimony about this.



IMO the conversation with John Hepworth didn't happen like Jodi described and may not have happened at all. I belie e the confrontation happened, but I think it's note likely she got the info by reading his emails or Facebook messages. I think this all ties into the fake Steve Carroll and her claim that some random person told her this stuff about Travis.



I wondered about this. I'm not familiar enough with the roads in that part of the country but Flores was pretty convincing when he says her travel story was impossible. Normal people would have freaked out with shame and fear at that point -- didn't bother Jodi at all.



Right! And she even acknowledges that it's compelling and sge can't explain it -- but she acts like she is not required to explain it, and like she thinks police will just forget about that little detail. Or again, maybe she just didn't really care too much since she didn't bother to think up better stories. Or maybe she is a psychopath who has no understanding or appreciation for consequences.



This part just floors me. She even says in a sing-song way "he's doing great" -- almost like she did Travis a big favor by sending him to a better place so whats the big deal and why should she have to suffer any punishment or anything unpleasant

Thanks for all your comments, Minor! There's two places, BBM, where I have a slightly different take.

I think the purpose of her saying that Travis bad-mouthed her to Chris and Sky Hughes is (a) to make Travis look like a jerk, (b) to explain why the Hugheses don't like her, (c) to make herself yet again a victim, and (d) to bolster her argument that Travis and Sky Hughes argued about Jodi because Sky was on Jodi's side.

I also think her lack of physical reaction is because she doesn't know how to react. She's waiting to get some cue from Flores. To me, this also explains the conversation with John Hepworth, if in fact it happened. He's telling her that Travis is moving on, and she doesn't know what she's supposed to say, so she says she already knows, no big deal. Yet later, she confronts Travis, and they "have a big fight." If she already knew, there was nothing to fight about. The purpose of the Hepworth story is to show that other people didn't think much of Travis either -- it's kind of a shame for her that her story doesn't add up.

 

[The Farm]

I'm late to this conversation, could you tell me what you see in the smaller picture. I looked at it and see exactly what is in the reenactment, but I'm open to seeing differently. It's kind of like a Rorschach test

I can see her foot,( looks like she has socks on) her pants with the hemline/seam that everyone is talking about. It is I think the second picture, it is much lighter than the others I have seen which to me have just been a big blur. But now I see it.
I think his arm is in that position because she is pulling him kind of sideways, maybe to try and turn him around. OMG.

 

[ElleElle]

BBM ~ Yes, I think there were more people involved. Gus is sleazy and Matt is MIA, so don't know a whole heck about him.

Yes E.E. I was always curious about the testimony from the Car rental guy at the Redding Airport, when he said that the car smelled of smoke. Wonder if MM or Gus are smokers. She did go through Vegas on her way to Utah, right ... think she met up with Gus? Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

 

[Sleuth5]

It's my understanding that to Mormons, it is a big deal. Not like confessing to a Catholic priest. According to one Mormon who posts here, being disfellowshipped would be announced in church, which would have been a whopping big deal to Travis. The question to me is whether in fact Travis went to his bishop. A friend of his said in a TV interview that Travis told him he'd gone to his bishop -- as far as I know, that's the only "proof" we have that he did.

I think this is an aspect of the Mormon religion that really impacts Travis' behavior and this trial. It appears that almost all of Travis' friends were Mormon. His social life revolved in large measure around the Mormon church. He was looking for a Mormon wife, which is why he wasn't going to marry Jodi. I don't think you can leave out the role Mormonism played in what happened here.

I agree with you that Travis was a normal guy and he certainly would not have been the first person to have trouble with the church forbidding premarital sex! And I also agree that it's a mistake to say that anyone would "never" do something. That's why I'm not totally tossing my theory. To me it seems possible that the desire to be a decent guy and allow Jodi to "apologize" could have overridden the knowledge that he shouldn't be seeing her. JMO

Well, I take your point here, but I imagine may Catholics would have a problem with your characterizing Mormon confession as a more serious thing than their own version. It's less about denomination to me than human nature. All I am saying is that I cannot accept that his having done that would have meant that he would not have had relations with her again.

:cow:

 

[leebee52]

BBM ~ Yes, I think there were more people involved. Gus is sleazy and Matt is MIA, so don't know a whole heck about him.

"Gus is sleazy"...haha, that's an understatement. I want to call him one of my favorite words....Smarmy.

 

[G&AMom]

Well, I take your point here, but I imagine may Catholics would have a problem with your characterizing Mormon confession as a more serious thing than their own version. It's less about denomination to me than human nature. All I am saying is that I cannot accept that his having done that would have meant that he would not have had relations with her again.

:cow:

No, no, I'm not saying that Mormon confession is more "serious" than Catholic confession at all! To the best of my knowledge, though, if you confess something to a Catholic priest that prevents you from taking communion, it is not announced at Sunday services. In the Mormon church, it is. That's my undestanding, anyway.

 

[leebee52]

Speaking a long the lines of a "Bishop". I find it totally hard to believe that any Bishop would gossip with JA about other people's business.

 

[DebinGA]

On video 9, 12:10, JA is asked about whether or not TA knew she was coming. All she can say is he asked her to and she said she wasn't. Then the Det asked if TA was surprised she came. She never answers.

That solidifies to me that TA did not know she was coming. She is a liar of major proportions and that questions was an easy yes, even for her. Not being able to lie, means she hasn't thought it thru enough to know if it is to her benefit at that time.

She has to know they have been very thorough so far in the investigation. Det Flores showed her the evidence etc. I think she is wary of what they have. Hence, avoiding that discussion all together.

It will take me the next two days to get through all of the video posted but all I can say is wow.

Kelly

She was so wary, yet she told Flores at some point, "You're so weird." And she wasn't playing cute at the time. Very revealing that she was savvy enough to avoid being trapped into a virtual confession, yet not savvy enough to make herself be respectful to the detective in charge.