MA - Lindsay Clancy, Strangled 3 Children in Murder/Suicide Attempt, Duxbury, Jan 2023

[IDK]

DBM

 

[IDK]

Dbm-/ sorry all-/ the site is not working for me tonight!

 

[IDK]

Dbm

There's no such thing as medication-induced homicidal ideation. This is something made up by defense attorneys and the so-called experts they pay very attractively.

OK— can you please post some articles or studies to support your statement?

 

[Cedars]

can you please post some articles or studies to support your statement?

I think 'verified' means person doesn't have to supply links

 

[IDK]

I think 'verified' means person doesn't have to supply links

OK, thanks for the heads up

 

[iamshadow21]

OK, thanks for the heads up

We have been very fortunate in this thread to not only have people with lived experience of mental illness, particularly psychosis and post-partum mental illnesses, giving insights from 'inside the walls', but physicians, nurses, and psychiatric professionals offering us the benefit of their education and career experience, of which @BeginnerSleuther is one. We're very lucky to have them.

MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Dbm

OK— can you please post some articles or studies to support your statement?

I think 'verified' means person doesn't have to supply links

Correct. But I know IDK is genuinely curious and have appreciated interacting with him/her on other subjects, so I will provide some context and a link as well. AND I'll connect it to Lindsay Clancy's case since that's why we're all here.

This is a very controversial topic and I hope that Lindsay Clancy's attorneys don't go to court with this defense. It always does more harm than good in public perception, IMO, without cause. Where the lay public gets confused is that a person taking antidepressants can become activated, usually if they're on the bipolar spectrum. So for example, say that Lindsay had undiagnosed bipolar disorder (which is correlated with PPP). Part of bipolar is mania. So think of mania as the exact opposite of depressed. Ok, so say Lindsay's psychiatrist put her on an antidepressant, not realizing she's bipolar. It could cause Lindsay to become activated and switch from depression to mania. What are the symptoms of mania? In some cases, violence. In some cases, psychosis. So did the antidepressant cause the violence? I'd say no. The antidepressant did what it was supposed to do -- make her not depressed. But unfortunately, for someone with bipolar, they can't regulate their mood, so they go from one extreme to another. So the antidepressant would have exacerbated her illness and that's what caused the violence. This distinction is important because the drug is not causing the violence. Antidepressants don't cause homicidal ideation, IMO, based on the evidence we have (they can cause suicidal ideation in people under age 25, which has to do with the developing brain, but Lindsay is over age 25 anyway). The studies that say otherwise aren't taking the patient's baseline and/or co-morbidities into account.

One thing I will say is that there are some psych drugs that can cause irritability and in some cases, aggression. High doses of ADHD medications, one particular seizure medication, and meds in other drug categories can do this, but as far as I know, LC wasn't on any of these. Still, there are no legitimate studies I'm aware of that show they cause homicidal ideation in someone who lacks the co-morbidities or baseline risk discussed above. Irritability and aggression don't generally rise to homicidal ideation.

Here's a link from the peer-reviewed Psychiatric Times.

Warning: Antidepressants May Cause Messaging Manslaughter

Neither time nor science has given pause to some attorneys who exploit the misunderstanding that surrounds the putative "criminogenic" effects of antidepressants.

www.psychiatrictimes.com

 

[iamshadow21]

One thing I will say is that there are some psych drugs that can cause irritability and in some cases, aggression. High doses of ADHD medications, one particular seizure medication, and meds in other drug categories can do this, but as far as I know, LC wasn't on any of these.

Here's a link from the peer-reviewed Psychiatric Times.

Warning: Antidepressants May Cause Messaging Manslaughter

Neither time nor science has given pause to some attorneys who exploit the misunderstanding that surrounds the putative "criminogenic" effects of antidepressants.

www.psychiatrictimes.com

RSBM

I'm not an expert, just a neurodivergent bod from a broader neurodivergent family, and I know they had BIG problems with the first med they tried my (then eight-year-old) nephew on. He has diagnoses of ADHD and ODD. He also has a speech disorder (stammering) and is moderately deaf, which can complicate his communication. He does not have a seizure disorder or intellectual disability. The first ADHD med they put him on, he swiftly became explosively violent with NO obvious triggers. When I heard this, I mentioned his ODD and my brother shot that down with, 'no, this was DIFFERENT'. They actually stopped it cold (his psych told them to) because the side effect was so severe and unpredictable and he was a danger to himself and his siblings. So, yeah, that's definitely a thing I've seen in my own family with ADHD meds. Me, at the age of thirty-mumble, went on old school Ritalin for the first time, and it's always been fine for me, so I never changed it. We're all different. That's why proper oversight of treatment with psych meds is so important.

MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

We only know what we know at this point. LC was in treatment for mental health struggles. Considering PPD or PPP is in no way suggestive that we are blatantly excusing the taking of her children’s lives. She killed them. There’s no getting around that.

How that shakes out in court remains to be seen. It does not seem that she was previously abusive to her children, nor have we heard any indication that she resented them. Maybe she did, and maybe she planned it - and that will come into discovery if the case goes to trial. Or maybe we will learn that she loved her kids but did have PPD or PPP and it wasn’t caught, or hadn’t yet been fully diagnosed. She may have had an underlying mental illness. Personally, I think that is more likely, but I will leave the labeling of a diagnosis to medical professionals.

The consequence of not facing the possibility that her mental health may have contributed to her actions does nothing to uncover the truth of the tragedy - it simply further stigmatizes the mentally ill.

jmo

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

RSBM

I'm not an expert, just a neurodivergent bod from a broader neurodivergent family, and I know they had BIG problems with the first med they tried my (then eight-year-old) nephew on. He has diagnoses of ADHD and ODD. He also has a speech disorder (stammering) and is moderately deaf, which can complicate his communication. He does not have a seizure disorder or intellectual disability. The first ADHD med they put him on, he swiftly became explosively violent with NO obvious triggers. When I heard this, I mentioned his ODD and my brother shot that down with, 'no, this was DIFFERENT'. They actually stopped it cold (his psych told them to) because the side effect was so severe and unpredictable and he was a danger to himself and his siblings. So, yeah, that's definitely a thing I've seen in my own family with ADHD meds. Me, at the age of thirty-mumble, went on old school Ritalin for the first time, and it's always been fine for me, so I never changed it. We're all different. That's why proper oversight of treatment with psych meds is so important.

MOO

I'm sorry that happened. Yes, ADHD meds can be tricky, especially in kids and especially those with ODD. ODD without any med at all is high risk for violence at baseline. Stimulants stimulate so in kids who may be overstimulated at baseline (like those with ODD), they can cause this kind of aggression. It's like if someone has high blood pressure and you give them a med to treat Rosacea, but that med has the side effect of high blood pressure. You put them at risk for a hypertensive emergency. This is what I mean by taking co-morbidities into account, which a lot of studies don't do. This is also why psychiatrists need to be mindful of all other diagnoses. Checking co-morbidities is just as important as checking allergies.

 

[iamshadow21]

I'm sorry that happened. Yes, ADHD meds can be tricky, especially in kids and especially those with ODD. ODD without any med at all is high risk for violence at baseline. Stimulants stimulate so in kids who may be overstimulated at baseline (like those with ODD), they can cause this kind of aggression. It's like if someone has high blood pressure and you give them a med to treat Rosacea, but that med has the side effect of high blood pressure. You put them at risk for a hypertensive emergency. This is what I mean by taking co-morbidities into account, which a lot of studies don't do. This is also why psychiatrists need to be mindful of all other diagnoses. Checking co-morbidities is just as important as checking allergies.

It's not a horror story, just an unpleasant interlude - he came off the first med, and as far as I know, what they tried him on after that worked, and he is doing fine. Kid's going to rule the world one day. He's got a literal photographic memory (first in our family to have that quirk since my late grandma) and a frighteningly good ability with numbers. He's probably going to end up in science, finance, or as a computer programmer, like his dad.

But yeah, we're all so different in our responses to medications, even if we share a bunch of DNA.

MOO

 

[Knox]

My sister suffered from post partum psychosis.

It is terrifying and horrendous and the most frightening thing I’ve ever had deal with. EVER!

We were lucky. My sister was hospitalized very quickly. I moved into my sister’s house to look after my newborn nephew. My sister got help but she was NEVER left alone with my nephew for the first year of his life.

What has happened to the Clancy family is horrendous.

I will not pass judgement on a severely mentally ill mother who clearly did not receive the appropriate care.

If you haven’t lived it, you have no idea.

MOO

Thank you for sharing your personal experience with your sister, that really brings it into perspective. Hugs to you both.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

RSBM

I'm not an expert, just a neurodivergent bod from a broader neurodivergent family, and I know they had BIG problems with the first med they tried my (then eight-year-old) nephew on. He has diagnoses of ADHD and ODD. He also has a speech disorder (stammering) and is moderately deaf, which can complicate his communication. He does not have a seizure disorder or intellectual disability. The first ADHD med they put him on, he swiftly became explosively violent with NO obvious triggers. When I heard this, I mentioned his ODD and my brother shot that down with, 'no, this was DIFFERENT'. They actually stopped it cold (his psych told them to) because the side effect was so severe and unpredictable and he was a danger to himself and his siblings. So, yeah, that's definitely a thing I've seen in my own family with ADHD meds. Me, at the age of thirty-mumble, went on old school Ritalin for the first time, and it's always been fine for me, so I never changed it. We're all different. That's why proper oversight of treatment with psych meds is so important.

MOO

Just wanted to add to this that, as my name says, I am ADHD, diagnosed in my forties. Two of my five children have ADHD, and my eldest (29) is currently testing for it as well. My two diagnosed Boy aged 3 (in 2005) was given Ritalin, he became a zombie and never spoke. The doc lowered doses until I said if there was nothing else they could give him (he was on the smallest dose possible and still a zombie and constantly in another world), then could we stop the meds, as I just wanted my happy, energetic, loving and chatty little boy back and we stopped. He is now turning 21 and has chosen not to medicate. My second diagnosis, a Girl aged 11 (in 2016), was given Concerta, slow-release, she became less frantic, less irritable, and less confrontational and was finding school SIGNIFICANTLY easier, but her temper became more explosive than it ever had before medication. The doc added a mood stabiliser it didn't help. Then she decided she didn't want to take them and she just wanted to be herself. Obviously, I cannot force or would not force her to take any, so she has also chosen not to medicate, and it has been a very tough few years. I was diagnosed, and as I have hypertension (managed), my doc and I agreed on Vyvanse. It's working well, life-changing to be honest.
The point I am taking the long route (I'm so sorry) to say is that, even with the apparently same diagnosis in a familial environment, meds can help some and not others and can even cause side effects that are worse than the symptoms of the diagnosis!
Like you said, @iamshadow21 , its just a thing I've seen in my family. I appreciate your input.

 

[GRT]

...snipped for focus...

My fear is Lindsay Clancy will also end up in prison, and not a psychiatric hospital where she can receive treatment.

You could be right, but I'm finding it hard to dredge up many emotions for Lindsay. She might get treatment in a psychiatric hospital, but does she deserve that?

I don't know because there's still the fact that she killed her three wee ones and they didn't get a second chance.

If the defense is able to prove she really didn't know what she was doing, perhaps she'll land in a hospital. I'm just skeptical right now because, as a nurse, she should have had the knowledge to understand the side effects of the drugs she was taking.

I think the fact she was in the medical industry will work against her in court.

And, I can't see her going free--not ever, really. What happened is just too horrific for her to be set free.

 

[GRT]

My sister suffered from post partum psychosis.

It is terrifying and horrendous and the most frightening thing I’ve ever had deal with. EVER!

We were lucky. My sister was hospitalized very quickly. I moved into my sister’s house to look after my newborn nephew. My sister got help but she was NEVER left alone with my nephew for the first year of his life.

What has happened to the Clancy family is horrendous.

I will not pass judgement on a severely mentally ill mother who clearly did not receive the appropriate care.

If you haven’t lived it, you have no idea.

MOO

Thank God you were there for your sister and nephew! That's genuine family commitment and I commend you for it.

It's too bad no one was there to serve in that capacity for Lindsay, but her situation differs from your sister's because your nephew is alive, and Lindsay's children are dead.

Postpartum psychosis is awful, but we still have to offer some value for lost lives. Perhaps not charging her with murder in the first degree--but something.

And, we all need to be more observant and helpful if we see this problem happening with another young mother. I'm so thankful you were there for your sister. But, may I ask a question? Do you think you'd feel the same toward her had she killed your nephew? Because I think that's the dividing line--killing. If it can be stopped, that's wonderful. But, if it happens, I think we need to seek justice for those who lost their lives. Because they matter too.

 

[Tealgrove]

Thank God you were there for your sister and nephew! That's genuine family commitment and I commend you for it.

It's too bad no one was there to serve in that capacity for Lindsay, but her situation differs from your sister's because your nephew is alive, and Lindsay's children are dead.

Postpartum psychosis is awful, but we still have to offer some value for lost lives. Perhaps not charging her with murder in the first degree--but something.

And, we all need to be more observant and helpful if we see this problem happening with another young mother. I'm so thankful you were there for your sister. But, may I ask a question? Do you think you'd feel the same toward her had she killed your nephew? Because I think that's the dividing line--killing. If it can be stopped, that's wonderful. But, if it happens, I think we need to seek justice for those who lost their lives. Because they matter too.

That’s a hard question to answer and I’m not sure I can.

My sister was extraordinarily ill. It was clear to see and beyond frightening.

She was suicidal and at the same time threatening to kill my nephew to end the torment.

I happened to arrive at the house as she spun out of control.

She locked herself into the house with my nephew. I immediately called 911. They broke down the door.

My sister had already hurt herself but thankfully not my nephew.

She was sick. Very sick.

She loved my nephew then and said she was saving him.

That’s why I said earlier that if you hadn’t lived it, you could never truly understand it. That’s also why I said I wouldn’t pass judgement on LC.

What she did is beyond compression. We will see what happens in court.

MOO

 

[IDK]

Correct. But I know IDK is genuinely curious and have appreciated interacting with him/her on other subjects, so I will provide some context and a link as well. AND I'll connect it to Lindsay Clancy's case since that's why we're all here.

This is a very controversial topic and I hope that Lindsay Clancy's attorneys don't go to court with this defense. It always does more harm than good in public perception, IMO, without cause. Where the lay public gets confused is that a person taking antidepressants can become activated, usually if they're on the bipolar spectrum. So for example, say that Lindsay had undiagnosed bipolar disorder (which is correlated with PPP). Part of bipolar is mania. So think of mania as the exact opposite of depressed. Ok, so say Lindsay's psychiatrist put her on an antidepressant, not realizing she's bipolar. It could cause Lindsay to become activated and switch from depression to mania. What are the symptoms of mania? In some cases, violence. In some cases, psychosis. So did the antidepressant cause the violence? I'd say no. The antidepressant did what it was supposed to do -- make her not depressed. But unfortunately, for someone with bipolar, they can't regulate their mood, so they go from one extreme to another. So the antidepressant would have exacerbated her illness and that's what caused the violence. This distinction is important because the drug is not causing the violence. Antidepressants don't cause homicidal ideation, IMO, based on the evidence we have (they can cause suicidal ideation in people under age 25, which has to do with the developing brain, but Lindsay is over age 25 anyway). The studies that say otherwise aren't taking the patient's baseline and/or co-morbidities into account.

One thing I will say is that there are some psych drugs that can cause irritability and in some cases, aggression. High doses of ADHD medications, one particular seizure medication, and meds in other drug categories can do this, but as far as I know, LC wasn't on any of these. Still, there are no legitimate studies I'm aware of that show they cause homicidal ideation in someone who lacks the co-morbidities or baseline risk discussed above. Irritability and aggression don't generally rise to homicidal ideation.

Here's a link from the peer-reviewed Psychiatric Times.

Warning: Antidepressants May Cause Messaging Manslaughter

Neither time nor science has given pause to some attorneys who exploit the misunderstanding that surrounds the putative "criminogenic" effects of antidepressants.

www.psychiatrictimes.com

Thank you very much for your response and the article— I look forward to reading it. You’re right — I want to learn more and I also appreciate the information about bipolar. Your knowledge and expertise are greatly appreciated!

I’m trying to make sense of it all— maybe I’m naive, but I’m not feeling that she hated her kids so much that she wanted to get rid of them so she could start her life over. That’s where I’m at right now, at least. IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Thank you very much for your response and the article— I look forward to reading it. You’re right — I want to learn more and I also appreciate the information about bipolar. Your knowledge and expertise are greatly appreciated!

I’m trying to make sense of it all— maybe I’m naive, but I’m not feeling that she hated her kids so much that she wanted to get rid of them so she could start her life over. That’s where I’m at right now, at least. IMO.

I agree with you. I also don't think she hated her kids. I think she was a very sick woman. I believe that she was likely psychotic. I think she likely has a bipolar diagnosis that was missed. MOO.

 

[IDK]

I just wanted to add that I’ve read comments that since LC is a nurse, she should have understood the side effects of her meds. I agree we all have a responsibility to read package inserts, ask questions and talk to our doctors. The flip side to that is—when you are struggling so much that that you’ve been on at least 12 different meds over a few months and been hospitalized twice, I think at some point you are trying to trust your doctors and hoping they can help you.

IMO there’s no way a labor and delivery nurse could be expected to understand all the various side effects and possible interactions of the multiple meds she was prescribed.
I personally don’t fault her for that.

 

[Cedars]

I just wanted to add that I’ve read comments that since LC is a nurse, she should have understood the side effects of her meds. I agree we all have a responsibility to read package inserts, ask questions and talk to our doctors. The flip side to that is—when you are struggling so much that that you’ve been on at least 12 different meds over a few months and been hospitalized twice, I think at some point you are trying to trust your doctors and hoping they can help you.

IMO there’s no way a labor and delivery nurse could be expected to understand all the various side effects and possible interactions of the multiple meds she was prescribed.
I personally don’t fault her for that.

I agree.

Also, any kind of mood disorder, at any level, messes with your belief system and perceptions of the world. You're in emotional pain, so everything becomes personal, it all becomes about how you feel. Also, possibly, being a nurse, accustomed to being cool-headed, rational and in control, it might have been even more upsetting to find herself so different from who she saw herself as being, who she was before. Possibly terrified she would never go back.

When you're in pain, you don't care about abstract, encyclopedia-type facts. You don't want your doctor to explain stuff, you just want them to make the pain stop.

JMO