steeltowngirl
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It may be possible that LC was misdiagnosed?
The entire situation is heartbreaking.
First and foremost, the murder of the children.
jmo
MA - Lindsay Clancy, Strangled 3 Children in Murder/Suicide Attempt, Duxbury, Jan 2023
- Thread starter Hap
- Start date
The entire situation is heartbreaking.
First and foremost, the murder of the children.
jmo
Possibly.
I just want to know what other evidence the prosecution has against her.
Just came across this article and find it extremely interesting:
“ Specific motives for filicide were initially described by Resnick,1 classified as (1) altruistic, (2) acutely psychotic, (3) accidental filicide (fatal maltreatment), (4) unwanted child, and (5) spouse revenge filicide.1 Altruistic filicide is murder committed out of love to relieve the real or imagined suffering of the child. Altruistic filicide may be associated with suicide. For example, a mother who is suicidal may not be willing to leave her child motherless in a “cruel world.” Distinct from this, acutely psychotic filicide occurs when a parent in the throes of acute psychosis (e.g., experiencing command hallucinations) kills his or her child with no comprehensible motive. Fatal maltreatment filicide may occur as a result of child abuse, neglect, or Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Parents committing spouse revenge filicides kill children in a specific attempt to make the spouse suffer. Furthermore, filicide may occur within the context of familicide, the extermination of the entire family.
Resnick1 reported a “relief of tension” after altruistic and acutely psychotic filicides. The expulsion of energy after the child’s death explains why some parents who had intended filicide-suicide did not complete the act of suicide. Conversely, other parents, “upon realization of the gravity of their act…may attempt suicide even if it was not planned” (Ref. 1, p 79). In the reported literature, a large proportion of filicides are filicide-suicides, with 16 to 29 percent of mothers and 40 to 60 percent of fathers who commit filicide also committing suicide.2–4 Fathers’ higher rates of filicide-suicide are possibly related to the higher male suicide rate in general.”
Filicide-Suicide: Common Factors in Parents Who Kill Their Children and Themselves
The purpose of this phenomenological study was to identify commonly occurring factors in filicide-suicide offenders, to describe this phenomenon better, and ultimately to enhance prevention of child murder. Thirty families’ files from a county coroner’s office were reviewed for commonly...jaapl.org
If she wasn’t acutely psychotic due to PPP or medication induced homicidal ideation— what possible motive could she have had?
Resentment of her children?
Lindsay was in bad enough shape to commit herself to a mental hospital.
She subsequently murdered her children, slit her wrists and jumped out a window to kill herself. That's PPP looks like, as far as I can tell.
Andrea Yates, Lindsay Clancy. So many similarities.
Both waited for a very small window of opportunity to commit the murders. Both heard voices that, in their psychosis, compelled them to kill their children.
I'll leave it up to psychiatrists to sort out the rest.
steeltowngirl
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Another case where PPP was the defense for a mother who murdered her children.
www.kqed.org
‘Doctors later told them that Carol's break from reality was caused by hormonal changes from her last pregnancy, lack of sleep and the relentless cycle of breastfeeding and caring for three babies under three. Two-thirds of women who kill their children following childbirth suffer from postpartum psychosis, a 2000 study found.’
[…]
‘Postpartum psychosis affects one to two moms out of 1,000 births, but many reproductive psychiatrists believe that is an underestimate because the symptoms are easy to miss, and the doctors who most often see new moms are not trained to recognize them.’
"Postpartum psychosis often presents with delirium-type symptoms, mainly confusion and disorganized thoughts and not classic hallucinations or paranoia," said Nirmaljit Dhami, a reproductive psychiatrist in Mountain View. "And the symptoms wax and wane. I had one patient who was confused at times and very clear at other times."
[…]
'A psychotic mind has a logic all its own. The state is attempting to use rational, logical thought to explain psychosis, which is illogical and delusional.'Defense expert witness, Diana Lynn Barnes
She Killed Her Children. Can We Forgive Her? | KQED
Several psychiatric experts said Carol Coronado was psychotic when she killed her three daughters. But proving insanity comes down to a moral test, not a clinical one.
‘Doctors later told them that Carol's break from reality was caused by hormonal changes from her last pregnancy, lack of sleep and the relentless cycle of breastfeeding and caring for three babies under three. Two-thirds of women who kill their children following childbirth suffer from postpartum psychosis, a 2000 study found.’
[…]
‘Postpartum psychosis affects one to two moms out of 1,000 births, but many reproductive psychiatrists believe that is an underestimate because the symptoms are easy to miss, and the doctors who most often see new moms are not trained to recognize them.’
"Postpartum psychosis often presents with delirium-type symptoms, mainly confusion and disorganized thoughts and not classic hallucinations or paranoia," said Nirmaljit Dhami, a reproductive psychiatrist in Mountain View. "And the symptoms wax and wane. I had one patient who was confused at times and very clear at other times."
[…]
'A psychotic mind has a logic all its own. The state is attempting to use rational, logical thought to explain psychosis, which is illogical and delusional.'Defense expert witness, Diana Lynn Barnes
bbm.
The following comment is compassionately stated , while also thinking about the small faces of those precious little ones she murdered :
LC can receive treatment in prison !
There are a multitude of programs set up for inmates depending on their needs and circumstances.
LC would most likely be segregated for her own safety from other inmates, if she requested it.
There needs to be consequences for depriving three innocent people of their lives.
Those three children were people deserving of a full life.
Imagine what they might have accomplished, who they might have met, soulmates they would've treasured, the relationship with their father, both sets of grandparents, friends, and so many others their paths would have crossed.
I can't take their deaths lightly and my opinion is that for such an act -- there needs to be strong consequences !
If LC did not want to be a parent anymore, there were other options ; like walking away.
LC can get whatever treatment she needs in prison.
Reading back through this thread and the links posted, I can't find anywhere that LC even had PPD or PPP ?
There have been comments about the stresses endured by other people or their relatives due to PPD/PPP, and for them I am very sorry.
None of those people mentioned in this thread have murdered their children, though !
Without knowing if LC even had this diagnosis, it's too soon to want an early compassionate release.
What if she is out soon and remarries or goes back to PC ?
Will this horror happen all over again ?
I don't think she 'blacked out' and didn't know what she was doing, hence no repercussions for the atrocity.
Because atrocity it certainly was.
Strangling takes time, and LC could have stopped what she was doing , three times, three separate opportunities ... to let go of the exercise bands.
This was no "Billy Milligan" , where he had separate personalities and was ultimately deemed not responsible for the murders he committed, because his core personality had 'blacked out'.
The True Story of Billy Milligan From “Monsters Inside”
Netflix's “Monsters Inside: The 24 Faces of Billy Milligan” documents the criminal’s highly publicized, turbulent life. Keep watching to learn Billy’s true story.
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iamshadow21
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Billy Milligan&co. wasn't put on trial for or acquitted of murder, they/he was a rapist. And a dissociative disorder and psychosis are very different conditions. You can't really compare them. The presentation and treatment are completely different.bbm.
The following comment is compassionately stated , while also thinking about the small faces of those precious little ones she murdered :
LC can receive treatment in prison !
There are a multitude of programs set up for inmates depending on their needs and circumstances.
LC would most likely be segregated for her own safety from other inmates, if she requested it.
There needs to be consequences for depriving three innocent people of their lives.
Those three children were people deserving of a full life.
Imagine what they might have accomplished, who they might have met, soulmates they would've treasured, the relationship with their father, both sets of grandparents, friends, and so many others their paths would have crossed.
I can't take their deaths lightly and my opinion is that for such an act -- there needs to be strong consequences !
If LC did not want to be a parent anymore, there were other options ; like walking away.
LC can get whatever treatment she needs in prison.
Reading back through this thread and the links posted, I can't find anywhere that LC even had PPD or PPP ?
There have been comments about the stresses endured by other people or their relatives due to PPD/PPP, and for them I am very sorry.
None of those people mentioned in this thread have murdered their children, though !
Without knowing if LC even had this diagnosis, it's too soon to want an early compassionate release.
What if she is out soon and remarries or goes back to PC ?
Will this horror happen all over again ?
I don't think she 'blacked out' and didn't know what she was doing, hence no repercussions for the atrocity.
Because atrocity it certainly was.
Strangling takes time, and LC could have stopped what she was doing , three times, three separate opportunities ... to let go of the exercise bands.
This was no "Billy Milligan" , where he had separate personalities and was ultimately deemed not responsible for the murders he committed, because his core personality had 'blacked out'.
M00.The True Story of Billy Milligan From “Monsters Inside”
Netflix's “Monsters Inside: The 24 Faces of Billy Milligan” documents the criminal’s highly publicized, turbulent life. Keep watching to learn Billy’s true story.sports.yahoo.com
MOO
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To me, possibly the altruisic motive might apply. She seemed to have experienced depression and anxiety for months. That often leads to thoughts of suicide, because it's a miserable way to live, and the person feels hopeless. But then, perhaps not wanting to leave them to fend without her. Or possibly, feeling she couldn't kill herself as long as they were alive, but that she could never be a good enough mother to them.Just came across this article and find it extremely interesting:
“ Specific motives for filicide were initially described by Resnick,1 classified as (1) altruistic, (2) acutely psychotic, (3) accidental filicide (fatal maltreatment), (4) unwanted child, and (5) spouse revenge filicide.1 Altruistic filicide is murder committed out of love to relieve the real or imagined suffering of the child. Altruistic filicide may be associated with suicide. For example, a mother who is suicidal may not be willing to leave her child motherless in a “cruel world.” Distinct from this, acutely psychotic filicide occurs when a parent in the throes of acute psychosis (e.g., experiencing command hallucinations) kills his or her child with no comprehensible motive. Fatal maltreatment filicide may occur as a result of child abuse, neglect, or Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Parents committing spouse revenge filicides kill children in a specific attempt to make the spouse suffer. Furthermore, filicide may occur within the context of familicide, the extermination of the entire family.
Resnick1 reported a “relief of tension” after altruistic and acutely psychotic filicides. The expulsion of energy after the child’s death explains why some parents who had intended filicide-suicide did not complete the act of suicide. Conversely, other parents, “upon realization of the gravity of their act…may attempt suicide even if it was not planned” (Ref. 1, p 79). In the reported literature, a large proportion of filicides are filicide-suicides, with 16 to 29 percent of mothers and 40 to 60 percent of fathers who commit filicide also committing suicide.2–4 Fathers’ higher rates of filicide-suicide are possibly related to the higher male suicide rate in general.”
Filicide-Suicide: Common Factors in Parents Who Kill Their Children and Themselves
The purpose of this phenomenological study was to identify commonly occurring factors in filicide-suicide offenders, to describe this phenomenon better, and ultimately to enhance prevention of child murder. Thirty families’ files from a county coroner’s office were reviewed for commonly...
If she wasn’t acutely psychotic due to PPP or medication induced homicidal ideation— what possible motive could she have had?
Mental darkness and hopelessness, IMO, isn't the same as psychosis. It's almost worse.
Her husband said she'd been having her best day. It's been speculated that people who've made up their minds to commit suicide feel a sense of relief.
JMO
Yes, they are different, but not that much, and since the trial hasn't started , there may be a few surprises in store for the jury ??
I think it partly depends on the interpretation and also whom the defense atty. of LC will be ?
Will they go with a psychiatrist that LC was seeing, or a psychologist --whose opinion of LC's diagnosis may vary wildly from the prosecution ?
Eta : Suspected of murdering two people but not charged nor proven.
My mistake.
But back to LC, the first thing she stated was whether she needed a lawyer, so I was thinking she may use the 'blacked out' defense ?
But we'll see.
Imo.
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Bolding mine.
That's really sad.
Iirc, had he been told to not leave her alone ?
The guilt is going to be difficult for him and will get probably worse, not better.
Imo.
BeginnerSleuther
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IDK
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Yes I have read that also about suicide. It would help explain how this happened after what was reportedly “one of her best days”.
She had been struggling for months— tried numerous medications and was hospitalized twice. Maybe she felt she couldn’t fight it any longer—and the meds coupled with hormonal changes after having a baby was just too much?
But she said she heard a voice— maybe it was actually an intrusive thought? I don’t think they are the same but could have a similar effect…
Yet her poor babies…. And that is why I don’t believe she should go free after this crime. Either prison or psych hospital— depending on the outcome of the trial ( if it gets that far) IMO.
iamshadow21
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A dissociative disorder generally develops in childhood, as a result of severe and repetitive Adverse Childhood Experiences, which are often, but not always, some form of abuse. There is a misunderstanding that it has to be severe sexual abuse; this is not true. One of the most famous systems in the world, Chris Costner-Sizemore, began dissociating after seeing two violent deaths as a toddler. A system I'm friends with developed DID as a result of medical trauma due to acute and chronic medical conditions requiring regular hospitalisation and medical procedures beginning when they were an infant. And for as many as ten percent of systems diagnosed with DID, the 'root cause' is unknown.
If a dissociative disorder is presented as an explanation of the crime, I would expect the defense to present a large amount of evidence to support the diagnosis, going back to elementary school reports and such. And even that wouldn't have a certainty of helping. There was a woman with a multitude of documented mental health diagnoses including a dissociative disorder executed for her crimes only a few years ago.
In my opinion, I'm not seeing anything right now that makes me think dissociative disorder rather than psychosis, but we'll see what comes out in the future.
I must add, a dissociative disorder does not make anyone more likely to be violent or in any way dangerous to children. People with dissociative disorders are just trying to live their lives, for the most part, and are not criminals, just people who have had a sadder, harder start to life than others.
I will say, I am not any kind of specialist with 'psych' in my title, but I am an individual living with a dissociative disorder, and my personal library and knowledge of this cluster of disorders is broader than the average person off the street. Take my assertions here with however much weight you like, and for the purposes of this forum, everything I have said above is My Opinion Only.
I don't think he was told not to leave her alone, I'm not sure. I don't think she'd been diagnosed as suicidal/ homicidal, or with PPP.
I notice from news articles that they appeared to communicate through text, because he was working in an office at home. I guess this was to follow his work expectations.
But I'm not sure he even saw her before he left to pick up the food, he doesn't mention it.
JMO
BeginnerSleuther
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Dissociative Identity Disorder or dissociation related to a personality disorder tend to start in childhood, but there are other dissociative disorders that don't. In fact, dissociation secondary to PTSD can very well start after the traumatic event, even after the PTSD diagnosis. Dissociative fugue is an amnestic event we don't really have a cause for, though in most cases, it's following a trauma, such as a plane crash or even motor vehicle crash. Reactive psychosis, sometimes falling under the category of a Brief Psychotic Disorder often presents with dissociation following a trauma.
Thanks for all of this. ^^^
I find it interesting, albeit sad.
As far as this case, it's important ( to myself as a layperson and not a pysch. professional ) : Was LC conscious of what she was doing ?
The deaths of these babies haunt me.
I am listening to two podcasts , one dealing with DD and the other about BM's case !
Imo.
IDK
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Dbm
“However, certain medications — most notably, some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior.”
“However, certain medications — most notably, some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior.”
Top Ten Legal Drugs Linked to Violence | TIME.com
When people consider the connections between drugs and violence, what typically comes to mind are illegal drugs like crack cocaine. However, certain medications — most notably, some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior.
healthland.time.com
BeginnerSleuther
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Dbm
“However, certain medications — most notably, some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior.”
Top Ten Legal Drugs Linked to Violence | TIME.com
When people consider the connections between drugs and violence, what typically comes to mind are illegal drugs like crack cocaine. However, certain medications — most notably, some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior.healthland.time.com
As a board-certified expert in the field, that entire article is fake news.
For one, the study is atrocious and would never pass muster in legitimate medical evidence.
Read this paragraph from the article:
"In the case of antipsychotics, the drugs may be given in an attempt to reduce violence by people suffering from schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders — so the drugs here might not be causing violence, but could be linked with it because they’re used to try to stop it."
That's not how medical research works. If that was the case, then we'd say that diabetes drugs are "linked" to diabetes and make people think it causes it.
Some drugs are "linked" to violence because they're often prescribed for conditions that can be associated with violence. That does NOT mean the drug caused the violence.
These types of studies are just plain inaccurate and I hate when MSM publish them because that's what causes distrust in the medical community, not to mention amplifying stigma based on a false narrative.
There is no such thing as medication-induced homicide. That's my expert opinion based on evidence-based medicine. There's no study that shows that psych drugs cause violence. Illegal drugs? Certainly. Some drugs make you more disinhibited so you may commit violence. But medication-induced homicidal ideation isn't a thing.