MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #10

[Spectrix]

. .. defense will be calling two biomechanical experts who are currently working on the FBI investigation into the incident... and their expert opinion is that there was no pedestrian hit on John O'Keefe's body.

We haven't heard their evidence as yet. Do you somehow have access to this information?

 

[Wishbone]

We haven't heard their evidence as yet. Do you somehow have access to this information?

It was revealed in previous court hearings

 

[TTF14]

Zero sympathy from me. He's trying to put an innocent woman in prison with his Associates Degree-based nonsense.

If that's "doing your job", don't do it. Or get deservedly ridiculed by the world.

Yeah, I get that. But if it's between "you get up there and testify or we'll fire you," I can see why he did it. I wouldn't have, but....it's really the only way I can make him getting up there and spewing that nonsense make sense!

 

[Spectrix]

It was revealed in previous court hearings

Care to link for those of us who haven't seen please?

 

[Chelly]

Well, if it's true that he traversed 3 flights of steps, I think he might have gone directly to the basement when he arrived because that's where the boys were (even though they testified they weren't, I believe), a fight immediately ensued because of a smart remark someone made, and Chloe just jumped in. I think he was hit on the back of the head by someone involved in the fight. They carried his body out to the flagpole.

But, since they also were making a big deal about the dog being let out to pee, maybe Chloe was out there when John arrived, heard him, and got scared and went after him? You'd think they would have just said that though....

IMO MOO

Like you, I believe the beating took place in the basement and it ended fast with JO unconscious or dead. Several photos have been posted of the well-equipped basement gym, including workout equipment with hard, sharp protruding parts. A few solid punches by a couple big drunk, angry guys aided by Chloe biting/scratching JO's arm. The back of JO's head could have smacked a workout machine as he fell, or one of the punches landed on the back of his head. There would have been a heavy blood flow down his shirt and onto the floor.

I think he was dragged out through the basement bulkhead door to the edge of the front yard. At that time the snow was light and any drag marks would have been covered by the heavy snow accumulation that was just beginning. We know the basement floor was replaced some months later and Chloe was re-homed. moo

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

I think one of the key things about the biomechanical experts testifying is that the CW loses their normal argument of "this person is just saying what the defense wants because they're paying them".

 

[TTF14]

Like you, I believe the beating took place in the basement and it ended fast with JO unconscious or dead. Several photos have been posted of the well-equipped basement gym, including workout equipment with hard, sharp protruding parts. A few solid punches by a couple big drunk, angry guys aided by Chloe biting/scratching JO's arm. The back of JO's head could have smacked a workout machine as he fell, or one of the punches landed on the back of his head. There would have been a heavy blood flow down his shirt and onto the floor.

I think he was dragged out through the basement bulkhead door to the edge of the front yard. At that time the snow was light and any drag marks would have been covered by the heavy snow accumulation that was just beginning. We know the basement floor was replaced some months later and Chloe was re-homed. moo

Yep, exactly what I think happened.

IMO

 

[HarmonyE.]

Yeah, I get that. But if it's between "you get up there and testify or we'll fire you," I can see why he did it. I wouldn't have, but....it's really the only way I can make him getting up there and spewing that nonsense make sense!

I doubt he'd be fired for saying he doesn't feel qualified to testify. I really think he thinks he's smart.

 

[Pyrite]

Alan Jackson interviewed by reporters afterwards and he said he thinks she comes in with limited testimony but he is not worried either way because he has it covered. He is sooo self assured.

I don’t think it matters much if the doctor comes in. How can anyone vote guilty if the two other expert witnesses say the car did not cause the injuries to JO? Does anyone think trooper Paul’s testimony convinced anyone compared to those two?

The Dr might be good for a little added insurance with the Jury, but IMO not necessary at all.

MOO

 

[TTF14]

I think one of the key things about the biomechanical experts testifying is that the CW loses their normal argument of "this person is just saying what the defense wants because they're paying them".

Agree. This is the first case I've ever followed where the expert wasn't paid by whatever side they were testifying for. I wonder if they'll make the connection that they are getting paid by the feds. I don't think I would....

 

[TTF14]

I don’t think it matters much if the doctor comes in. How can anyone vote guilty if the two other expert witnesses say the car did not cause the injuries to JO? Does anyone think trooper Paul’s testimony convinced anyone compared to those two?

The Dr might be good for a little added insurance with the Jury, but IMO not necessary at all.

MOO

I agree. She isn't needed, although it was nice of her to reach out and offer her expertise.

 

[fluffypaste]

I think one of the key things about the biomechanical experts testifying is that the CW loses their normal argument of "this person is just saying what the defense wants because they're paying them".

That occurred to me too. That's part of why I'm so anxious to hear from them.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I think one of the key things about the biomechanical experts testifying is that the CW loses their normal argument of "this person is just saying what the defense wants because they're paying them".

Huge. the Judge actually told the defense they couldn't prep the FBI witnesses, and then is all like "You mean to tell me you haven't spoke to this witness, Mr. Jackson?"

Come on, now. But she'll have to let them in and anyone on the jury harboring any doubts or having trouble believing bad cops exist, will see the truth. Ryan Nagle already told them about "the Feds" and now here comes the FBI experts.

Has there ever been a case in US history where the FBI provides evidence AND experts for the defense in a criminal trial?

 

[waldojabba]

Of everything I’ve seen thus far, KR’s demeanor has been the ONLY thing that’s bothered me. I wish she would act more…. I’m not sure what word to use. Dignified? Serious? It’s nowhere near enough to convict her IMO, but she doesn’t come across as particularly likable, and that matters.

That said, if the above is true, that juror needed to go for sure. They’re directly told not to discuss matters amongst each other. They can’t go around just blatantly ignoring that directive.

No she does not appear likable I agree.

But wondering why a juror or anybody factors that in to guilty or not guilty decision. I know people will say it’s human nature to judge yada yada

IMO Judge if you must, but understand what column your personal judgement goes into.
It goes in to the not applicable column when it comes to this case. Did she back her car into John and kill him that night/morning or not and has the CW proven that to you beyond a reasonable doubt. Plain and simple.

All the rest is just noise and deflection.

I am glad that juror got booted. She sounded horridly incapable of any type of critical thought process. Just a gossip.
JMO.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Care to link for those of us who haven't seen please?

If you are doubting the FBI-provided biomechanical experts will testify that the physical evidence indicates JO was not hit by a vehicle, it's literally all over the place if you look. You may prefer to wait for them to actually testify, but here's a recap of the voir dire testimony from yesterday you might have missed. With jurors out, defense experts in Karen Read trial face vetting

Keep in mind that the defense isn't going to give Lally a full peek at their conclusions. So if you have any interest in watching the trial, I'd probably go that route. Hopefully next week! Can't wait.

 

[Derph]

I have to ask, how much of the trial have you watched?

It's the prosecution's case that is beyond ludicrous. They don't even have a viable theory of what happened (See Trooper Paul's testimony. It's the most embarrassing testimony I've ever heard. Well, aside from Proctor's). Not only are there independent witnesses who put Karen Read sitting alone in her car, no doubt waiting for John's return or call, no one in this "house full of people" saw a body lying in the front yard as they left the premises, walking near by and then driving by the exact location.

It's also important to put the "house full of people" into context. It's very possible the younger ones sitting in the dining area never saw John enter and head downstairs. The stairs down are off the foyer and the floorplan isn't open with a limited view from the doorway of the dining room. Which is not to say they weren't aware something had happened after the fact. These young people were not questioned and some weren't even identified until many months later. If they were told (and this is a direct quote from Matt McCabe) "Just tell them the guy never went into the house" and didn't want to rock anything with the no doubt intimidating Brian Albert, this would explain why they didn't come forth right away on their own.

No one asked and no one told, but by the time LE finally was forced (by the FBI's investigation) to deal with the bystanders, if they had heard something, they no doubt knew they were complicit in keeping silent as they knew the next day John was found dead on the lawn. This meets the definition of accessory to murder after the fact.

We're really only talking about two non-family members, Julie Nagle and Sara Levinson. Had they been questioned by law enforcement in a proper LE setting, they may well have told about a commotion in the basement. But they didn't and by the time LE did ask questions, they'd be silent long enough to know they could face charges. So they decided to take Matt's advice and just keep repeating, "The guy never went into the house". Easy enough. "I know nothing."

As for the cops, aside from John, there was only Brian Albert and Brian Higgins. And they are both shady as hell, denying documented phone calls and conversation (see butt dialing and butt answering), destroying phones under court order (BH's at a military base where State police have no jurisdiction), and with Brian Albert not bothering to even step outside when there were ambulance, police and a screaming woman right under his bedroom window. Probably too busy still doing clean up in the basement.

No doubt. John was killed in that house. The state doesn't even have a remotely viable theory to show otherwise. They only have a conflicted and dirty lead investigator and Trooper Joe Paul, who literally spoke gibberish on the stand.

There is just too much shady stuff going on with the so called evidence that makes practically all of it questionable. Even if I were to deem one or two items legitimate there are so many things working against reason that I can't see a way forward to convict.

There are reasons why there are so many stringent rules made for evidence gathering, accident reconstruction, witness interviewing and chain of custody protocols. Most of them were flagrantly ignored in this case to such a ridiculous degree as to be grossly negligent. Practically every rule was broken. Then there is the absolutely abhorrent professional misconduct and outright law breaking by people who are held to a much higher standard. The list of these is much too long and I don't feel like typing them out. Those of you who have watched this trial are well familiar with them.

This trial is a fraud and I hope heads roll because of it. Sadly, I doubt they will as too many people will be taken down. We'll see.

 

[Chelly]

RE: JO's right arm with apparent dog bites and scratches... The long-sleeved shirt JO wore was displayed during testimony. The right sleeve had puncture defects but no tears. Dog teeth and nails cause punctures through clothing. If his arm was injured by severe scraping of moving vehicle undercarriage, I think the shirt sleeve would have ripped. imo

 

[Spectrix]

If you are doubting the FBI-provided biomechanical experts will testify that the physical evidence indicates JO was not hit by a vehicle, it's literally all over the place if you look. You may prefer to wait for them to actually testify, but here's a recap of the voir dire testimony from yesterday you might have missed. With jurors out, defense experts in Karen Read trial face vetting

Keep in mind that the defense isn't going to give Lally a full peek at their conclusions. So if you have any interest in watching the trial, I'd probably go that route. Hopefully next week! Can't wait.

I watched the entire Voir Dire yesterday, thank you. I was not aware that the evidence of those two witnesses was in the public domain as yet hence my question.
Multiple people have suggested that it is.

"It's literally all over the place if you look"

Where, exactly?

 

[TTF14]

Has there ever been a case in US history where the FBI provides evidence AND experts for the defense in a criminal trial?

Oddly enough, just as I was reading your post, I watch watching a Court TV YouTube video from 5 months ago about this case. Vinnie had a few people on, including Melanie Little, who said she'd never seen it in 30 years.

Having not followed this case until the trial started, I'm shocked they went ahead with trial after the feds got involved. For those of you who have been following since the beginning, is that kindof the consensus? Did most of you think there was no way this was going to trial?

 

[HarmonyE.]

This trial is a fraud and I hope heads roll because of it. Sadly, I doubt they will as too many people will be taken down. We'll see.

The FBI investigation does give me some hope. They've been fierce going after bad state troopers lately, and I can't believe all the stuff they have on Proctor and his superiors -as well as Higgins - isn't going to turn into prosecutions. And think, we've only heard the Karen Read related stuff! Can you imagine what else they have on these guys that has no connection to this case?