MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #12

[fluffypaste]

Lucky - Reasonable doubt.
Dr. Russell - Reasonable doubt
Richard Greene - Reasonable doubt
and I'll add
Medical Examiner - Reasonable doubt

All in one day. And then there's all the days before this one.

FBI experts will remove all doubt on Monday. John O'Keefe was not hit by any vehicle.

Juries don't care about reasonable doubt when it comes to murder trials. They just don't.

Juries care about reasonable doubt when it comes to stuff like financial crimes or drug crimes. When it comes to murder, it is a different story. A jury will not acquit somebody of murder unless they genuinely believe it is more likely true than not true that the defendant is actually innocent.

However, I believe that threshold has been already been achieved and that Karen will clear the threshold even further once the other experts testify.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Juries don't care about reasonable doubt when it comes to murder trials. They just don't.

What are you basing this on?

I was on a criminal case jury in Dedham a few year ago. Not a financial crime; it was a violent crime. Started out 10 - 2 Guilty. Then....Reasonable doubt was discussed.
Not Guilty after 3 days of deliberation.

You may have a "gut feeling" from trials you've watched but I think most jurors regardless of the nature of the case, take their job very seriously. And "reasonable doubt" does not mean "beyond a shadow of a doubt" like many people assume.

 

[swanniee11]

I have not followed this case closely at all, I'm just reading and catching up however to say the jurors don't find reasonable doubt on this kind of case I will disagree. I think this is the exact kind of case where it would be founded. I think the financial cases with no jail time will not have reasonable doubt but a verdict. IMO

 

[kittythehare]

Oh I am pretty damn sure that BA and BH moved JO to where he was eventually found later - because of all the reasons you listed. And someone in that house killed JO whether they realized it right away or not. I just don’t think that JM texted and made calls when JO first arrived to lay some sort of false trail. I think she knew JO was dead at 2:30, lied to implicate KR, all the rest of it though.
I also don’t think the murder was planned and intentional. These cops are dumb but would they really plan for it to happen at BAs house?

They might if they were in a hurry.
also, best place for it to happen.. who would ever question them?

 

[keek]

What are you basing this on?

I was on a criminal case jury in Dedham a few year ago. Not a financial crime; it was a violent crime. Started out 10 - 2 Guilty. Then....Reasonable doubt was discussed.
Not Guilty after 3 days of deliberation.

You may have a "gut feeling" from trials you've watched but I think most jurors regardless of the nature of the case, take their job very seriously. And "reasonable doubt" does not mean "beyond a shadow of a doubt" like many people assume.

Scary as so close and then the person can go free or convicted, I'd want beyond a shadow of a doubt but so hard a lot of times.

 

[kittythehare]

How come no measurements or any analytics at all were produced for the skull fractures to estimate type of force and weight required? (or were they and I was asleep?)
They would surely have conducted those tests?
Even if he fell, they would be necessary?

 

[KSwizzle]

We might see that from the fbi hired experts but trooper Paul was so under qualified to the point even with all these corrupt troopers I actually feel bad for him seems like he’s just caught up in this

 

[fluffypaste]

We might see that from the fbi hired experts but trooper Paul was so under qualified to the point even with all these corrupt troopers I actually feel bad for him seems like he’s just caught up in this

I hope this raises questions about other convictions that Paul may have been involved with. He's clearly not qualified to be an expert prosecution witness.

 

[justaboringlady]

One of the most bizarre things is Jen texting and calling John when Karen and her car were already back at 1 Meadows Ave. Using the Nagle testimony about texting his sister in the house and John's phone, Karen and John arrived at 34 Fairview about 12:23. The people in the Nagle vehicle see Karen alone in the car and don't see John on the lawn. Read auto-connected to John's home Wi-Fi at 12:36. The route from 34 Fairview to John's is seven minutes in normal conditions. Using seven minutes, this means Karen had to have left 34 Fairview by 12:29, if not a couple of minutes earlier if her phone didn't connect until she was inside the home or she drove slower due to conditions or not being familiar with the roads.

Instead of videos they could or should have had access to along Karen's route home, the CW's entire timeline here is built around the Jen McCabe sightings of Karen's vehicle outside. McCabe testified she had a clear view of Karen's vehicle up until 12:45.

Here are her texts to JO:

• 12:31 a.m. Jennifer McCabe texts O”Keefe: “Pull behind me”
• 12:40 a.m. Jennifer McCabe texts O’Keefe: “Hello”
• 12:42 a.m. Jennifer McCabe texts O’Keefe: “Where are u”
• 12:45 a.m. Jennifer McCabe texts O’Keefe: “Hello”

Jen also called John's phone seven times between 12:30 and 12:50. So from 12:30 to 12:50 am, a combined total of 11 calls and texts to John from Jen. But Karen must have been gone from the premises before any of these 11 contact attempts were made.

Jen would have us believe that at least until 12:45 she's looking out the window at Karen's vehicle, apparently very anxiously waiting for John to alight and join the beer and Claw party inside. She doesn't see a body on the lawn but she does see a Lexus that can't be there.

Someone suggested she was trying to find the phone. Not sure it makes perfect sense if there was no evidence the phone was moved after a certain time. Maybe it was put in airplane mode?

 

[TIGER0822]

Just a random. Thought. JO fled up the basement stairs, and desperately then fled up the upstairs to try and escape and lock himself in a bedroom/bathroo . He was caught, and brought downstairs that was the third flight of stairs. Just my musings. MOO

 

[TIGER0822]

I think she very possibly did, but this doesn't explain all the calls and texts after Karen was clearly there and gone and considering she and her husband testified they were looking out the window waiting for him to arrive. They had to have been made for a specific reason.

Dbm

 

[kittythehare]

Maybe she got out of the fence that night as well

Yeah.
Maybe she did a house full of pisht people, no better opportunity..
She could have knocked him down the steps..
they left him in the back yard for the night and moved him during or just before or after Lucky's second passing.
Chuck some snow on him and he's there for the 3 women to find.
Lucky would have seen him.
He wasn't there.

If they had kept him indoors in a heated basement and his temp was 80something F when paramedics arrived, it makes more sense cos he should have been colder had he been there from 12.29 to 5am, I speculate without looking it up..
Also the ground beneath him should not have been frozen as his body would have been protecting it..
Nobody looked at it though, did they?

 

[k-mac]

IMO the prosecution are delighted with the defence witnesses.

 

[KSwizzle]

I don’t think the prosecution will be delighted at all with the fbi experts, watching the voir dire they seemed extremely well educated, knowledgeable, and able to explain technical information to a lay person

 

[k-mac]

It's still nagging me that JO was intentionally lured to the house that night. Not only the verbal invitation to JO, but also BH sending a text to KR at the waterfall as well. In addition, JM physically trying to exit the waterfall bar with KR in tow. Taking into account that here both JO and BA worked as cops in Boston and lived in the same town but did not seem to associate previously, why invite him to party on this night when before there didn't seem to be a friendship or relationship. I suspect some kind of planned confrontation was meant to take place and they did everything they could to get JO to that house. Be it over KR, Colin involved in something illegal, or even more going on in Canton with BA.

JO enters the house, and in the process of bending over and taking off his shoes, as is his practice at home, possibly one of the three says something while JO has just managed to remove only one shoe. At this point JO is in a perfect position to receive the blow to the back of his head. What happens after that is the mad scramble to cover up the attack. JMOO

All this going on at precisely the same moments Karen Read is incessantly texting and ringing and leaving abusive rageful messages to John saying how much she hated him....and what a loser he is.

The exact same moment in REAL time.

 

[k-mac]

I don’t think the prosecution will be delighted at all with the fbi experts, watching the voir dire they seemed extremely well educated, knowledgeable, and able to explain technical information to a lay person

Can only comment on the witnesses presented so far.

Weak start for the defence.

moo

 

[geevee]

All this going on at precisely the same moments Karen Read is insistently texting and ringing and leaving abusive rageful messages to John saying how much she hated him....and what a loser he is.

The exact same moment in REAL time.

Yes, it makes it quite obvious she thought he was alive and well.

 

[KSwizzle]

Can only comment on the witnesses presented so far.

Weak start for the defence.

moo

I do agree with you, so far outside of Lucky I don’t think the other two were that great but, the defense doesn’t have to prove anything at all that’s not their job it’s the prosecutions job to do that

 

[kittythehare]

Juries don't care about reasonable doubt when it comes to murder trials. They just don't.

Juries care about reasonable doubt when it comes to stuff like financial crimes or drug crimes. When it comes to murder, it is a different story. A jury will not acquit somebody of murder unless they genuinely believe it is more likely true than not true that the defendant is actually innocent.

However, I believe that threshold has been already been achieved and that Karen will clear the threshold even further once the other experts testify.

I think it's done, defense didn't need any witnesses at all.

But I'm not jury.
I don't know who they are or how they perceive.

 

[k-mac]

Yes, it makes it quite obvious she thought he was alive and well.

I don't agree with that hypothesis nether does LE, It is more likely actions from consciousness of guilt, venting at him, blaming him for....'look what you just made me do".

But indulging that idea for a second, still is contradictory at minimum to what she said happened.

That alone has proven she is a liar.

Her statement was..... there was no issues or problems and she went home to bed.

Caught up critically lying at the very moment she is accused of leaving John for dead.