MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #3

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They use a lot more than just body temp. With a body found that quickly I would think they could narrow it down fairly well. Rigor mortis, Liver Mortis , stomach contents (if her family knew how long ago she ate etc) There is a whole list of ways, not based on ambient temps.
I did see them carrying a bag out of the woods, yes. but I have no clue what was in it.

Ok, I don't mean to be argumentative but after some quick research I still think the police must have found something more definitive than her autopsy results to narrow the search time frame. Assuming a time of death of 1:30, there is only a 1.5 hour window until 3:00. Bodies lose ~1.4 degrees/hour and it was a hot day so maybe a 2-2.5 degree drop. Rigor doesn't usually kick in until 2-3 hrs after death but can be faster in higher temps or if a struggle occurred so it would maybe just be starting. It sounds like lividity doesn't begin until 2-3 hours after death so that would not have started. As a runner, I wouldn't run less than an hour or 2 after eating, plus she had Crohns so probably longer which makes stomach content analysis trickier. None of that seems s

Maybe I'm just finding facts to support my opinion, but none of that seems concrete enough to prompt LE to narrow an already narrow timeframe.
 
I agree. I don't think time of death could be that accurate to shave off an hour. Body temp seems to be the most likely tool for the coroner, but considering outside temp, the fact she may or may not have been running at the time (unknown variable as to actual living body temp before death) - i think there is too large a margin of error given the short time frame.

I think some other physical evidence is more likely. I don't know what the phone could possibly tell you. Its last ping does not necessarily correspond with time of death.


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Average body temp os 98.6? Body temp of runner could be as high as 103 in high heat. Not knowing if she was running or not or what her actual body temp may have been, and assuming a loss of 1.5 deg per hour, thats almost a 3 hour possible margin for error.

Rigor mortis sets in between 2 and 6 hours and follows a predictable path through the body. Perhaps enough had set in to make a 4pm death just too unlikely.

If the phone was continuously pinging or reporting location, if destroyed by burning, throwing in water, or crushing... That may have occured prior to EOL.


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Yes, I guess since I haven't been contacted it's not considered viable.

.......snipped.....

I am going to respectfully recommend you remove this post and call it in to LE again. Again, respectfully yours.
 
Did I make this up or were there signs of burns around the area where she was found. Meaning, it would indicate she was burned *there* vs. elsewhere and then dumped in the location she was found.
I'm still having a difficult time understanding how she could have been dragged to this area from the road. It's secluded, but not *that* secluded. Risky.
 
She could have been carried. She was petite. Struggle could have taken place in vehicle - primary crime scene with the final resting place as secondary. Fire could have taken place there. I recall seeing a circular burn area on the ground in initial photos and assuming it was associated with the crime, burns on trees too. But we don't know. Those could have been there prior to the crime.


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Ok, I don't mean to be argumentative but after some quick research I still think the police must have found something more definitive than her autopsy results to narrow the search time frame. Assuming a time of death of 1:30, there is only a 1.5 hour window until 3:00. Bodies lose ~1.4 degrees/hour and it was a hot day so maybe a 2-2.5 degree drop. Rigor doesn't usually kick in until 2-3 hrs after death but can be faster in higher temps or if a struggle occurred so it would maybe just be starting. It sounds like lividity doesn't begin until 2-3 hours after death so that would not have started. As a runner, I wouldn't run less than an hour or 2 after eating, plus she had Crohns so probably longer which makes stomach content analysis trickier. None of that seems s

Maybe I'm just finding facts to support my opinion, but none of that seems concrete enough to prompt LE to narrow an already narrow timeframe.
I don't think that you are being argumentative at all. I think it's great to explore the possibilities, and your ideas are as valid as any other.
Fair to say that we can't go on rigor alone, because being burned in a fire would throw the body temp off?
Let's take this example for nothing else than conversation.
VM gets up on sunday morning at 7 am. She's not real hungry because she had a late dinner the night before with her father at 111 chophouse, and being one of the better steakhouses in the area, had a fairly large dinner, rather than just nachos and cheese. So she waits until 10 am to eat.
At 1.00 she goes for a run She is found at 8:20 pm and an autopsy is performed the next day. There are some stomach contents left in her stomach. It takes 6 hours after eating to empty the stomach, so if there were no stomach contents it would be fair to say that she was alive at 4 pm.
Using your experience of waiting a few hours after eating before running applies here, but as posted earlier, it was said she was going for a walk, and not a jog by LE. If that's the case, she could have had something to eat just before she left. They can tell by the amount food digested, time of death, as long as they know the last time she ate.
You may be right. They could have found something else that determined the time of death. what did you have in mind?
 
Yes, I guess since I haven't been contacted it's not considered viable.


Yes - happy to remove, thanks for the guidance. I'm not sure how to delete so I just flagged my own post.

I think you've got something worthwhile, that LE needs to review. I wouldn't post anymore details until they tell you it's been dismissed. If this does turn out to be anything, you don't want to risk interfering with the prosecution by unknowingly releasing details that the defense could twist around.

I'm no legal expert, but I always play it safe. God Bless.
 
Did I make this up or were there signs of burns around the area where she was found. Meaning, it would indicate she was burned *there* vs. elsewhere and then dumped in the location she was found.
I'm still having a difficult time understanding how she could have been dragged to this area from the road. It's secluded, but not *that* secluded. Risky.
No, you didn't make that up. I posted a clip from the news that showed the area that was burned by fire, with fresh gray ash and soot.
I know there has been a lot of talk about accelerants, and the perp may have very well used them, however, there are pine trees in that area, and dead pine wood branches burn easy, especially during a drought which was the case. If you throw small branches on a little at a time, you can built a 3 ft high fire in ten minutes, and smokeless too.
 
So that fire could be what I speculated originally, a young pyromaniac, but it could certainly be a feeble attempt to hide DNA as well as many of you have suggested.
But I am dwelling on the hatred it must take to burn someone. Pure, "red hot" anger, hatred. A woman hater? Or just a Vanessa hater?
 
So that fire could be what I speculated originally, a young pyromaniac, but it could certainly be a feeble attempt to hide DNA as well as many of you have suggested.
But I am dwelling on the hatred it must take to burn someone. Pure, "red hot" anger, hatred. A woman hater? Or just a Vanessa hater?
It's hard to think if it's a "Vanessa hater" that LE hasn't investigated the trail by now. I would think if that was the case that this guy would have had some type of interaction with her in the past, like slashing her tires, or leaving hate filled voice mail, or stalking her in the open. with this much rage, rather than just a first date gone bad and nothing more. Someone that she knew for a while in order for him to develop feelings of some sort.
I am going with serial killer/ serial killer in the making. stalked her from afar, and knew the routine. Burned her to cover the DNA, not because he has been arrested with his DNA in the codis, but because he knows that if he is ever arrested in the future, he's busted.
All JMO.
 
Like many, I'm just plain out baffled. I joined WS in April, back when Missy Bevers was murdered in a church by a person wearing a LE/SWAT uniform. After a few weeks of thinking, equivocating, and researching (and marvelling over the oft meticulous work WS members put forth) the murder, I felt pretty resolute (as much as possible) in a theory. Here...not so much. I've mentioned before that I grew up in the locality (Sterling and W. Bolyston, with a lot of schoolmates who live in Holden) and I suppose that takes my attachment here up a scooch. As a child and teen, I walked and biked alone and with friends on peaceful, green-canopied roads just like the one VM was enjoying that day. When you're alone with not much else but wind whispers and bird songs, it's easy to fall into a meditative state. The combination of years of familiarity, feelings of safety and nature's trance is a thing of beauty I suppose I took for granted. Not only was this taken for eternity from VM and likely her family, but the sanctity of such needed beauty stolen from many of us. I live in a small town in Maine, and do not indulge in the same feelings of absolute safety as my neighbors. I have pangs of fear when my 11 year old niece bikes to her friend's a few streets away. My sister says I'm paranoid; I say informed, but perhaps my fear is augmented by following cases like this. I'm not sure who had this convo here the other day, but many of us have expressed a wish to bear witness and not forget, if nothing else. Names like VM and so many others at some point slip away...and that feels so wrong I have a hard time plunging my befuddled head into the sand in an attempt to forget.
...just like many of you. IMO, we all
appear to get frustrated with lack of movement around this time in a case, and that is when the squabbling begins. We all care so much, and are cyberpacing in the same confined, untouchable space.

I didn't begin this post to talk about any of that. I don't have anyone in my circle interested when a life is taken unless it's a personal relation or on Criminal Minds, so while I post infrequently I value the thoughts of those here that do.
ThinkHard, I think you had just mused that the crime scene may have been staged. I have read others suggesting that before. Could you offer why that would have been advantageous for the murderer? Also, aren't we dealing with a pretty slim window of time here...and would the perp want to have taken time to stick around for anything past the murderous act? I'm lost re: that scenario.

Also, and this is not to anyone in partic, why has the theory re: being struck on the head and rendered unconscious in order to drag to where she was found been negated many times? IMO, that leaves a weapon being pulled/threat, or a friendly meeting, planned, that went ugly. IMO, she wouldn't have set up a private meeting with someone given she had to get back, assemble things, say goodbye and make the bus. One more thing, had she been taken somewhere else and brought back, I'm sure they would have fibers from the truck, different grass, something. That is a whole lot of risk for the perp to take, especially in a short period of time. As far as he knew, she was going to meet up with a childhood friend on her walk, or her mom was coming to pick her up somewhere to get her home in time, etc.

It's almost as if it's too messy to be considered crafty, or it's too crafty to be considered messy.

All IMO. Sorry for the book...

Just replying because you directly asked me a question...

Your last line about the inconsistency is a big part of why I think the crime scene could have been staged.

I think it's possible whoever she met up with had no intention of murdering her, but that after he picked her up in his vehicle something happened and now he has this dead body on his hands.

The advantages of staging it at this point would be all about deflection. Have LE look anywhere but in his direction. I can see him reasoning that if he brings her body back to the place he picked her up from, a place she would have been running by anyway, then he can make it look like she was taken from there....keeping the investigation to a tighter area as well.

If there were fibers from a vehicle on her or other evidence of where she had been, it's likley the burning could have removed fiber evidence such as this.
 
They narrowed down the timeline from 1 pm - 4 pm to 1 pm - 3 pm during the second press conference. That took place after the autopsy. The medical examiner can tell the time of death.

The ME can determine a range regarding time of death based on stage of decomposition but they can't narrow it down precisely. And it seems unlikely at autopsy report would be able to get the time of death so precisely that they could shave an exact hour off the time line.

I think it is likely another reason they were able to narrow down the time frame. Perhaps witness reports, perhaps cell phone records and triangulated cell phone pings, I'm not sure. But I don't it was the ME shaving an hour off TOD.
 
I don't think that you are being argumentative at all. I think it's great to explore the possibilities, and your ideas are as valid as any other.
Fair to say that we can't go on rigor alone, because being burned in a fire would throw the body temp off?
Let's take this example for nothing else than conversation.
VM gets up on sunday morning at 7 am. She's not real hungry because she had a late dinner the night before with her father at 111 chophouse, and being one of the better steakhouses in the area, had a fairly large dinner, rather than just nachos and cheese. So she waits until 10 am to eat.
At 1.00 she goes for a run She is found at 8:20 pm and an autopsy is performed the next day. There are some stomach contents left in her stomach. It takes 6 hours after eating to empty the stomach, so if there were no stomach contents it would be fair to say that she was alive at 4 pm.
Using your experience of waiting a few hours after eating before running applies here, but as posted earlier, it was said she was going for a walk, and not a jog by LE. If that's the case, she could have had something to eat just before she left. They can tell by the amount food digested, time of death, as long as they know the last time she ate.
You may be right. They could have found something else that determined the time of death. what did you have in mind?

A couple things: how do we know she had a late dinner? We know she went to the chop house but do we know when?
(Also I highly doubt someone with crohns would ever have nachos for dinner....just sayin)

As far as digestion....on a full meal it CAN take up to 6 hours to fully empty the stomach. However food starts leaving the stomach after 30 minutes(varies slightly depending on content/type of food), however most food has left your stomach around 2.5 hours. And if it's a smaller meal or a snack of course it's even less. I wouldn't think eating something at 10am would be able to narrow down the timeline to 3pm.
 
A couple things: how do we know she had a late dinner? We know she went to the chop house but do we know when?
(Also I highly doubt someone with crohns would ever have nachos for dinner....just sayin)

As far as digestion....on a full meal it CAN take up to 6 hours to fully empty the stomach. However food starts leaving the stomach after 30 minutes(varies slightly depending on content/type of food), however most food has left your stomach around 2.5 hours. And if it's a smaller meal or a snack of course it's even less. I wouldn't think eating something at 10am would be able to narrow down the timeline to 3pm.
How do we know she had a late dinner? We don't. If you read line 3 of my post, you will see that I was using that as an example for conversation only.
I am not sure if someone with crohns would ever eat nachos for dinner either. If you read line 3 of my post, you will see that I was using nachos as an example for conversation only.
If she ate at 10:00 am, and it takes up to six hours to fully empty the stomach, and her stomach was half full, How could she be alive at 4 pm.?
 
Was there ever any follow up on the nasty message that was left on Vanessa's twitter/instagram? [can't recall which]
 
How do we know she had a late dinner? We don't. If you read line 3 of my post, you will see that I was using that as an example for conversation only.
I am not sure if someone with crohns would ever eat nachos for dinner either. If you read line 3 of my post, you will see that I was using nachos as an example for conversation only.
If she ate at 10:00 am, and it takes up to six hours to fully empty the stomach, and her stomach was half full, How could she be alive at 4 pm.?

It CAN take up to 6 hours to fully empty the stomach. It depends on the size of the meal and the type of food eaten. So it can also take less time as well.

The point is because people can have varied speed of digestion, the contents of her stomach wouldn't be enough to shave off an hour from her time of death. Unless her stomach still had undigested food in and and none in her small intenstine, then you know she had to have been killed within a half hour of her last food. But the degree the stomach is emptied of the following 5/6 hours can vary....especially for someone with a digestive disorder.
 
The ME can determine a range regarding time of death based on stage of decomposition but they can't narrow it down precisely. And it seems unlikely at autopsy report would be able to get the time of death so precisely that they could shave an exact hour off the time line.

I think it is likely another reason they were able to narrow down the time frame. Perhaps witness reports, perhaps cell phone records and triangulated cell phone pings, I'm not sure. But I don't it was the ME shaving an hour off TOD.

Ive been thinking about this a lot the past 12 hours - and I'm not so sure. I think the phone is worthless as i mentioned, time of last transmittance has no direct link to time of death. Obviously, the phone could have been destroyed well before or after the TOD.

I think its a mistake to think ME would use one piece of criteria to determine a window (like body temp), but more probably a combination of factors. There wouldn't be signs of decomp after 4-5 hours, but certainly some level. Of rigor and temperature loss. Hitting it from the other side of the time line, there may have been trace amount of food in her stomach or intestines. The more i think of it, the more I believe they could zero in on the time frame with more accuracy.


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Also, something led the police to change the query window from the original 1:00-4:00 to 1:00-3:00. Perhaps they were able to tell if her phone was shut-off or destroyed around this time indicting that something had happened to it/her? So a final location at/near the Mt barn around 2:45 and then nothing more. Just brainstorming...
In my notes taken at the time, I have the time of the cell phone ping as 2:25 pm...we discussed this in one of the earlier threads. MSM articles have been scrubbed now, but perhaps ThinkHard may remember discussing that ping time..trying to think who else may remember that...
 
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