MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #3

[Inthedetails]

The cart path piece is so perplexing! Just wondering - are we clear on if she was actually found on the cart path? It runs fairly parallel with the road so 100 yards directly down the cart path vs 100 yards straight into the woods starting from the cart path would mean a difference of about 100 feet further into the woods. Not sure that it matters either way......

I see what you mean. There is a path that leads perpendicular from the paved road where that guard rail ends. I was calling that the "cart path" as well as thinking the parallel path as the cart path.

I was assuming she was found where the perpendicular path intersects with the path that is parallel to the road, but that might not be correct.

jmo

 

[1306kayaker]

If he had picked her up in a vehicle, perhaps willingly, perhaps not, killed her somewhere else, and returned her body there to make it look like she had never left that location.....it may explain how her phone, could end up,in his car....and perhaps he didn't notice it until he was driving away.

I wonder if one cell phones are turned off, or destroyed if they give off a final lung from last known location? Does anyone know this?

If so....and her family ran a track her phone thing, could it perhaps shown the final "ping" at the mountain barn?
Could he have disposed of her cell phone there? Perhaps in one of their dumpsters?

I really know nothing about cell phone/tower pings BUT it seems to me that if her family used an app to determine that she was near the Mt Barn around 2:45 and then went and looked for her in that location, the app would relay something more accurate than just a cell tower ping from the nearest tower. As others have mentioned before on this forum, apps like Find a Friend, Find My phone etc. can track locations fairly exactly. Perhaps VM and her family used an app like this as a security measure? But this theory is not consistent with the info reported on NG that says the phone pinged that tower and that the family stopped by the restaurant to look for her: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1608/11/ng.01.html

 

[FindHG]

Striking a jogger or bicyclist with a vehicle or motorbike is the most common way I've seen perp subdue victim - often there are signs that this was done - but we haven't been told this in this case; well, indirectly perhaps we have by what you mentioned...

How can the perp control how much they hurt a victim striking with a car or motorbike? They have to know how to hit and run, maybe tested it before, with unsuspecting male runners maybe, to not draw attention?

 

[1306kayaker]

If he had picked her up in a vehicle, perhaps willingly, perhaps not, killed her somewhere else, and returned her body there to make it look like she had never left that location.....it may explain how her phone, could end up,in his car....and perhaps he didn't notice it until he was driving away.

I wonder if one cell phones are turned off, or destroyed if they give off a final lung from last known location? Does anyone know this?

If so....and her family ran a track her phone thing, could it perhaps shown the final "ping" at the mountain barn?
Could he have disposed of her cell phone there? Perhaps in one of their dumpsters?

Also, something led the police to change the query window from the original 1:00-4:00 to 1:00-3:00. Perhaps they were able to tell if her phone was shut-off or destroyed around this time indicting that something had happened to it/her? So a final location at/near the Mt barn around 2:45 and then nothing more. Just brainstorming...

 

[OldSteve]

How can the perp control how much they hurt a victim striking with a car or motorbike? They have to know how to hit and run, maybe tested it before, with unsuspecting male runners maybe, to not draw attention?

Good question, I don't think they care if the victim gets badly hurt.... Mickey Shunick was hit while on her bicycle by perp in pickup who had no experience doing it..... he thought she was more out it than she was and she was able to get his knife from him once he got her back to his place... There was a gal in Hawaii who was struck and was seriously hurt, but that didn't stop the perps in that case from savagely raping her despite her being badly bruised and bloody.
OT, one time when I was running someone on a bike very lightly clipped the back of my leg getting too close while passing - I was surprised how it tripped me up and I went over....

 

[Rocky1]

Great post. I think there are a number of factors that are involved in selecting a cell tower, distance is not the only one. Cell tower saturation, strength of signal, what carrier owns the tower etc... So, pinging off a tower doesn't necessarily mean its the one you're closest to.



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Thanks for the response.
The cell phone ping did have me thinking. These Google images are about 5 years old, and many changes could have taken place, so, I took a ride down Brook Station Rd to have a look.
The tower is still there at around 81 cemetery rd. (boylston ave.), however, there is no antena mounted to it, so it wouldn't have been a functioning tower, even though it is the closest. I guess that puts that question to bed anyway.

 

[Inthedetails]

Also, something led the police to change the query window from the original 1:00-4:00 to 1:00-3:00. Perhaps they were able to tell if her phone was shut-off or destroyed around this time indicting that something had happened to it/her? So a final location at/near the Mt barn around 2:45 and then nothing more. Just brainstorming...

Yes, the did narrow the time frame down. It's a great guess to think that something to do with the phone lead them to know the crime happened between 1-3 rather than 1-4.

Honestly, I'm stumped.

jmo

 

[Rocky1]

Good wild guesses, Rocky1, as you reason really well, and this scenario still makes great sense to me. How far would you wild guess a Sunday rider would venture? Do you think it's somebody who timed it? That's the one thing beside the location that seems very precise to me.

As far as the distance one would ride, that's a hard question to answer . I think it would have to depend on how dedicated they are to riding a bike. I do know it was hot that day, but I guess that wouldn't stop anyone if they are a die hard rider.
Yes, nothing to base this on, but I do think he timed it, and knew her routine.

 

[Rocky1]

Yes, the did narrow the time frame down. It's a great guess to think that something to do with the phone lead them to know the crime happened between 1-3 rather than 1-4.

Honestly, I'm stumped.

jmo

They narrowed down the timeline from 1 pm - 4 pm to 1 pm - 3 pm during the second press conference. That took place after the autopsy. The medical examiner can tell the time of death.

 

[Rocky1]

Like many, I'm just plain out baffled. I joined WS in April, back when Missy Bevers was murdered in a church by a person wearing a LE/SWAT uniform. After a few weeks of thinking, equivocating, and researching (and marvelling over the oft meticulous work WS members put forth) the murder, I felt pretty resolute (as much as possible) in a theory. Here...not so much. I've mentioned before that I grew up in the locality (Sterling and W. Bolyston, with a lot of schoolmates who live in Holden) and I suppose that takes my attachment here up a scooch. As a child and teen, I walked and biked alone and with friends on peaceful, green-canopied roads just like the one VM was enjoying that day. When you're alone with not much else but wind whispers and bird songs, it's easy to fall into a meditative state. The combination of years of familiarity, feelings of safety and nature's trance is a thing of beauty I suppose I took for granted. Not only was this taken for eternity from VM and likely her family, but the sanctity of such needed beauty stolen from many of us. I live in a small town in Maine, and do not indulge in the same feelings of absolute safety as my neighbors. I have pangs of fear when my 11 year old niece bikes to her friend's a few streets away. My sister says I'm paranoid; I say informed, but perhaps my fear is augmented by following cases like this. I'm not sure who had this convo here the other day, but many of us have expressed a wish to bear witness and not forget, if nothing else. Names like VM and so many others at some point slip away...and that feels so wrong I have a hard time plunging my befuddled head into the sand in an attempt to forget.
...just like many of you. IMO, we all
appear to get frustrated with lack of movement around this time in a case, and that is when the squabbling begins. We all care so much, and are cyberpacing in the same confined, untouchable space.

I didn't begin this post to talk about any of that. I don't have anyone in my circle interested when a life is taken unless it's a personal relation or on Criminal Minds, so while I post infrequently I value the thoughts of those here that do.
ThinkHard, I think you had just mused that the crime scene may have been staged. I have read others suggesting that before. Could you offer why that would have been advantageous for the murderer? Also, aren't we dealing with a pretty slim window of time here...and would the perp want to have taken time to stick around for anything past the murderous act? I'm lost re: that scenario.

Also, and this is not to anyone in partic, why has the theory re: being struck on the head and rendered unconscious in order to drag to where she was found been negated many times? IMO, that leaves a weapon being pulled/threat, or a friendly meeting, planned, that went ugly. IMO, she wouldn't have set up a private meeting with someone given she had to get back, assemble things, say goodbye and make the bus. One more thing, had she been taken somewhere else and brought back, I'm sure they would have fibers from the truck, different grass, something. That is a whole lot of risk for the perp to take, especially in a short period of time. As far as he knew, she was going to meet up with a childhood friend on her walk, or her mom was coming to pick her up somewhere to get her home in time, etc.

It's almost as if it's too messy to be considered crafty, or it's too crafty to be considered messy.

All IMO. Sorry for the book...

I can only respond to her being struck on the head.
The reason I think that may have happened, is that area is quiet, and she may have screamed. The other reason is she was dragged back quite a distance, and I picture her fighting the entire way if she wasn't shocked and incapacitated some how. Nothing but a guess.

 

[1306kayaker]

They narrowed down the timeline from 1 pm - 4 pm to 1 pm - 3 pm during the second press conference. That took place after the autopsy. The medical examiner can tell the time of death.

Rocky, I thought about that but given how hot it was that day I assumed that Authorities wouldn't narrow the timeframe that definitively based on body temp alone. Especially since they are using that time window for information gathering, not as a specific time of death window. However I really don't know much about how closely an autopsy can pinpoint time of death - does to the hour seem reasonable?

Also, just remembering that at some point the police went back in the woods and came out with something in a paper bag. Perhaps her phone? Not sure how to carry it over but there's info and a link in the 1st forum, post 589.

 

[1306kayaker]

I can only respond to her being struck on the head.
The reason I think that may have happened, is that area is quiet, and she may have screamed. The other reason is she was dragged back quite a distance, and I picture her fighting the entire way if she wasn't shocked and incapacitated some how. Nothing but a guess.

Agreed - the houses are far apart but sound travels well and screams would be noticed. Perhaps she was incapacitated, gagged, taken somewhere where she came to and fought her attacker inflicting the gouges and scratches mentioned by LE. Just guessing as well.

 

[Rocky1]

Striking a jogger or bicyclist with a vehicle or motorbike is the most common way I've seen perp subdue victim - often there are signs that this was done - but we haven't been told this in this case; well, indirectly perhaps we have by what you mentioned...

That's what happened exactly a number of years ago in a town not far from Princeton. A man struck a woman while walking. then put her in his car telling her he was going to take her to the hospital, took her elsewhere and murder her. (He's in jail so, no it's not him)
Great thinking This is my take on that.
If he did strike her, then stopped, placed her in his car, took her elsewhere, raped, (if he did) murdered her, drove back to the crime scene, parked on the side of the road, dragged her 100 yards in the woods, stripped her, and then burned her, how did he do all that in 1:45 min. - 2 hours?
I have been down that road either side of a dozen times. I have traveled it both during the week, and on the weekends. I know it is a light traveled road, but I have paid attention the past 5 or 6 times, and there was always at least one car in my mirror, granted a lot of that road is straight, and you can see distance. If I saw a car parked there,I would think it was either abandoned, or broke down, because the only house even close to that area is set far back from the road. Small town cops would stop if they saw it and run the plate number I would think or at the least in one hour for example, enough cars would have drove by, having it stick out enough for at least one person to remember. Think the perp would take that chance?
There are so many places to dump a body in princeton, some of those dirt roads are not traveled all day .
If he did hit her in his car and dragged her into the woods right there, the timing would have had to be perfect.
I have nothing to base this on, and I hope I am wrong, but, I don't think LE has much of anything to go on, and asked about a car to give them direction.. a place to start.
I am still not convinced they have DNA either. They may have swabbed Socks to bluff, and to see his reaction when asked to submit to a DNA test. I know the chances are quite good that they have, but if they do, then why won't they include/exclude this perp from the perp in queens? If they are connected, they have an obligation to tell the world there is a serial killer on the loose. JMO. Holding evidence close to the vest? How could revealing that jeopardize the investigation?
Nothing but guessing, and this is just looking at it from another angle.

 

[Inthedetails]

That's what happened exactly a number of years ago in a town not far from Princeton. A man struck a woman while walking. then put her in his car telling her he was going to take her to the hospital, took her elsewhere and murder her. (He's in jail so, no it's not him)
.

snipped by me

Could it be a copycat? Someone in the area who was aware of the previous case and wanted to re-create it for his own experience?

jmo

 

[1306kayaker]

That's what happened exactly a number of years ago in a town not far from Princeton. A man struck a woman while walking. then put her in his car telling her he was going to take her to the hospital, took her elsewhere and murder her. (He's in jail so, no it's not him)
Great thinking This is my take on that.
If he did strike her, then stopped, placed her in his car, took her elsewhere, raped, (if he did) murdered her, drove back to the crime scene, parked on the side of the road, dragged her 1000 ft in the woods, stripped her, and then burned her, how did he do all that in 1:45 min. - 2 hours?
I have been down that road either side of a dozen times. I have traveled it both during the week, and on the weekends. I know it is a light traveled road, but I have paid attention the past 5 or 6 times, and there was always at least one car in my mirror, granted a lot of that road is straight, and you can see distance. If I saw a car parked there,I would think it was either abandoned, or broke down, because the only house even close to that area is set far back from the road. Small town cops would stop if they saw it and run the plate number I would think or at the least in one hour for example, enough cars would have drove by, having it stick out enough for at least one person to remember. Think the perp would take that chance?
There are so many places to dump a body in princeton, some of those dirt roads are not traveled all day .
If he did hit her in his car and dragged her into the woods right there, the timing would have had to be perfect.
I have nothing to base this on, and I hope I am wrong, but, I don't think LE has much of anything to go on, and asked about a car to give them direction.. a place to start.
I am still not convinced they have DNA either. They may have swabbed Socks to bluff, and to see his reaction when asked to submit to a DNA test. I know the chances are quite good that they have, but if they do, then why won't they include/exclude this perp from the perp in queens? If they are connected, they have an obligation to tell the world there is a serial killer on the loose. JMO. Holding evidence close to the vest? How could revealing that jeopardize the investigation?
Nothing but guessing, and this is just looking at it from another angle.

Have you noticed that cleared building lot on Brooks Station Rd near the cart path? I can't remember when the trees were cut down but that lot might be deep enough to hide a car and I think it's between where VM was found and her moms house but on the other side of the road.

I too am finding it hard to work a vehicle into a possible theory but after hearing it directly from the police as well as in all official statements, I'm leaning in that direction. My tip was about a suspicious person on foot and I haven't heard anything about it since so it's obviously not considered a priority.

 

[Rocky1]

Rocky, I thought about that but given how hot it was that day I assumed that Authorities wouldn't narrow the timeframe that definitively based on body temp alone. Especially since they are using that time window for information gathering, not as a specific time of death window. However I really don't know much about how closely an autopsy can pinpoint time of death - does to the hour seem reasonable?

Also, just remembering that at some point the police went back in the woods and came out with something in a paper bag. Perhaps her phone? Not sure how to carry it over but there's info and a link in the 1st forum, post 589.

They use a lot more than just body temp. With a body found that quickly I would think they could narrow it down fairly well. Rigor mortis, Liver Mortis , stomach contents (if her family knew how long ago she ate etc) There is a whole list of ways, not based on ambient temps.
I did see them carrying a bag out of the woods, yes. but I have no clue what was in it.

 

[Rocky1]

snipped by me

Could it be a copycat? Someone in the area who was aware of the previous case and wanted to re-create it for his own experience?

jmo

I think at this time anything is possible. Just guessing but I want to say that happened about 20 years ago.

 

[Rocky1]

Have you noticed that cleared building lot on Brooks Station Rd near the cart path? I can't remember when the trees were cut down but that lot might be deep enough to hide a car and I think it's between where VM was found and her moms house but on the other side of the road.

I too am finding it hard to work a vehicle into a possible theory but after hearing it directly from the police as well as in all official statements, I'm leaning in that direction. My tip was about a suspicious person on foot and I haven't heard anything about it since so it's obviously not considered a priority.

Yes I did see the clearing across the road and just north. I didn't pay too much attention to how rough the terrain is as far as driving a car/truck in there, but after seeing a post on it here, (maybe you?) I did see stumps etc, and it looks like they were cut a few years ago, The ends are more gray than tan. I could be wrong but it doesn't look like anyone has done much there lately.
.

 

[Rocky1]

I see what you mean. There is a path that leads perpendicular from the paved road where that guard rail ends. I was calling that the "cart path" as well as thinking the parallel path as the cart path.

I was assuming she was found where the perpendicular path intersects with the path that is parallel to the road, but that might not be correct.

jmo

If I remember right, I did hear on the news that that area where she was found had been excavated in the past.
Maybe a road cut straight back for a driveway, and a clearing for a house? The burned logs looked like they had been cut down?
The google images we see are about 5 years old.

 

[Tempura]

Have you noticed that cleared building lot on Brooks Station Rd near the cart path? I can't remember when the trees were cut down but that lot might be deep enough to hide a car and I think it's between where VM was found and her moms house but on the other side of the road.

I too am finding it hard to work a vehicle into a possible theory but after hearing it directly from the police as well as in all official statements, I'm leaning in that direction. My tip was about a suspicious person on foot and I haven't heard anything about it since so it's obviously not considered a priority.

Can you tell us about your tip?