MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #5

[Cem75]

Just checked google earth - yeah a church I initially thought it was a business.

 

[searunner]

my opinion and thought that this killer could be related to this one and also the one that killed ally brugar maybe?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...ive-missing-weeks-officials-article-1.2886428

[FONT=&amp]Based off Papini's interviews with investigators, police are searching for a dark colored SUV and two women they consider "dangerous" and armed with a hand gun, the sheriff said.

police are also searching for a dark colored SUV in this case, plus armed with hand gun is describing the killer of ally bruegar who was shot and killed.

hope they get the killer if she got the license plate of the car it be lot easier.[/FONT]

Thanks for the post. Had no idea that Sherri Pappini had been found today until I saw your post -- great to hear. Haven't been following the story closely, but it certainly seemed like an abduction from the get-go. Shows LE needs to be more open-minded -- especially when it comes to women being involved -- but don't want to get off track....

While I respect all opinions, I strongly believe a dark SUV being involved in the Pappini abduction and being possibly involved in Vanessa's killing is just a coincidence. SUVs are extremely popular -- and "dark" includes several popular colors. The geographic areas are extremely far apart -- and very different. And there's no indication a man was involved, at least yet, in Sherri's disappearance, and we know from LE that Vanessa's killer was a man. Besides, one's an abduction, while the other is a murder.

I'm with many posting on this site that believe a localish man was involved in Vanessa's murder, and I lean toward Think Hard's view that Vanessa and her killer knew at least "of each other" -- at least the killer knew of Vanessa.

Aside -- JEF's post was very nice. I, too, had Vanessa's family in mind on what must have been beyond a terribly hard day for them. I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving.

 

[searunner]

I am starting to agree with you (and my dad) but wondering - maybe creeps like this drive around with the supplies to commit a crime like this and they are always ready and just wait until they see someone they want to attack. I have mentioned that I am from close to the area but I'm not super familiar with Princeton (other than the mountain). Question: is this road in any way a road that people might travel on to get from point A to point B? Could he have been driving to another town or even a close by state and been on this road, happened upon her randomly and just taken the opportunity to commit the crime? Or is the road really totally off the beaten path? If so, could he have seen her before she turned onto that road and followed her from a more busy road?

Thanks for your posts. Your question is a very good one, in my opinion, as the "spotted Vanessa previously on Sundays while en route to somewhere" scenario has entered my mind as one possibility.

You can find a "case map" on the start of this thread. I think the site admins post the relevant info at the start of each thread -- which is much appreciated.

I had noticed previously that it looks like (from the map, I'm not a local) that someone coming from Rutland or another area SW of Princeton might use BSR before getting on Mountain Rd to get to the mountain resort area. It looks like a more direct and shorter route than using the major roads, though I'd guess it would be slower going while on BSR.

Locals, is this accurate? Think Hard, JEF, Rocky? This is yet another reason why it's so helpful to have some very local folks posting.

 

[monkeypants]

In my opinion your dad is absolutely right, Princeton is not where you would go trolling for a victim, I have said this all along. I think the perp absolutely new Vanessa and I think she knew him. But that still leaves a lot of various scenarios.

But to me the idea this was random, or she was a random victim is almost impossible.

I believe it's someone from childhood...someone that has known her and stayed in the area...

 

[Rocky1]

I am starting to agree with you (and my dad) but wondering - maybe creeps like this drive around with the supplies to commit a crime like this and they are always ready and just wait until they see someone they want to attack. I have mentioned that I am from close to the area but I'm not super familiar with Princeton (other than the mountain). Question: is this road in any way a road that people might travel on to get from point A to point B? Could he have been driving to another town or even a close by state and been on this road, happened upon her randomly and just taken the opportunity to commit the crime? Or is the road really totally off the beaten path? If so, could he have seen her before she turned onto that road and followed her from a more busy road?

I doubt this was a random act. I think he is a local that knew that path well, was comfortable there, and knew her, or of her before the crime. I think if he didn't know the area, and it was random, he would have taken her someplace else, IMO.
As far as the road goes, Yes, if someone was driving from Rutland/west, they ,may use that road instead of rt.31.
As far as following her from a busier road, I think she left her moms house, heading north, due to the timeline. It's doubtful to me that she was on a different road. She was found 1/2 mile from her moms house that she left around 1 pm. She was killed between 1 pm and 3 pm according to LE, so that didn't give much time to jog/walk far.

 

[liz b.]

I doubt this was a random act. I think he is a local that knew that path well, was comfortable there, and knew her, or of her before the crime. I think if he didn't know the area, and it was random, he would have taken her someplace else, IMO.
As far as the road goes, Yes, if someone was driving from Rutland/west, they ,may use that road instead of rt.31.
As far as following her from a busier road, I think she left her moms house, heading north, due to the timeline. It's doubtful to me that she was on a different road. She was found 1/2 mile from her moms house that she left around 1 pm. She was killed between 1 pm and 3 pm according to LE, so that didn't give much time to jog/walk far.

RBBM : Karina Vetrano was also found 1/2 mile from her father's house. Did LE ever say that VM was raped ? Any mention of semen ?

 

[ThinkHard]

my opinion and thought that this killer could be related to this one and also the one that killed ally brugar maybe?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...ive-missing-weeks-officials-article-1.2886428

[FONT="]Based off Papini's interviews with investigators, police are searching for a dark colored SUV and two women they consider "dangerous" and armed with a hand gun, the sheriff said.

police are also searching for a dark colored SUV in this case, plus armed with hand gun is describing the killer of ally bruegar who was shot and killed.

hope they get the killer if she got the license plate of the car it be lot easier.[/FONT]

I highly doubt these cases are related at all based on two main things, NONE of the MO's match, and the geography is spread out far.

Also dark SUV's are pretty much one of the most common vehicles on the road.

 

[ThinkHard]

I am starting to agree with you (and my dad) but wondering - maybe creeps like this drive around with the supplies to commit a crime like this and they are always ready and just wait until they see someone they want to attack. I have mentioned that I am from close to the area but I'm not super familiar with Princeton (other than the mountain). Question: is this road in any way a road that people might travel on to get from point A to point B? Could he have been driving to another town or even a close by state and been on this road, happened upon her randomly and just taken the opportunity to commit the crime? Or is the road really totally off the beaten path? If so, could he have seen her before she turned onto that road and followed her from a more busy road?

BSR is the point A to point B rt to get to Princeton from Rutland and Paxton....but those are just small towns too. There are no high ways close and ones that are you wouldn't take that road. It just connects back roads through small towns to other back roads through small towns.

As far as we know she was never on any road but BSR that day. The belief being she turned right out of her moms driveway and was attacked a half a mile after that, so she never would have been on a more major road for him to witness her turning off.

I really don't think someone was just driving around looking for pray though, to me while not impossible, that feels more of like a fear monger if kind of thing then reality. even if someone was out there doing this, I doubt they'd pick Princeton. We also don't have any cases remotely like this around here happening before, so I doubt there is an area prawler. I respect your opinion but I just do no see that being likely at all, of course I could be wrong.

 

[JEF]

I agree with Rocky and others who believe this was not a random act and was planned ahead of time. I also believe there may have been some loose connection between Vanessa and the unsub, not related to her life in NYC.

It is also possible it could have been someone familiar with the area who saw her running at an earlier time and targeted her. If so, she may have initially been spotted on Route 31, which is a much busier road and leads south to Holden and other larger towns but also north to the Leominster/Fitchburg area, which is near where she grew up. But there is no real way to go further than guessing on that idea.

 

[ThinkHard]

I agree with Rocky and others who believe this was not a random act and was planned ahead of time. I also believe there may have been some loose connection between Vanessa and the unsub, not related to her life in NYC.

It is also possible it could have been someone familiar with the area who saw her running at an earlier time and targeted her. If so, she may have initially been spotted on Route 31, which is a much busier road and leads south to Holden and other larger towns but also north to the Leominster/Fitchburg area, which is near where she grew up. But there is no real way to go further than guessing on that idea.

I lean stronger to the idea he had to have known her beyond just spotting her when he drove by a few times.

While she had a routine, she was still only in Princeton for about 4 days a month. (I.e. The weekends every two weeks). Keep in mind it was also summer where HS and college age kids are home, the weathers nice which means more young girls in Princeton who would be running those roads. It also means there would be a lot of other women running those streets that summer with far greater frequency then Vanessa would have been.

Maybe I'm not saying this best, but I guess I just think if it was someone who had spotted a girl previously and learned her schedule, or just a random person on the prowl it just seems that persons chances of either picking Vanessa are happening upon her just seem really slim. If the scenario where that way, in my mind it would have been MUCH more likely a local girl (raisd and living in Princeton) would have been the target.

For Vanessa frequency by comparison the chances of it being random and it being her seem much slimmer.

To me I think the perp who killed her doesn't posses a threat to others and I think it was personal. I still don't know if I believe it was a planned murder or a big mistake with a cover up...but I definelty think the victim and the perp where in someway familiar with each other.

 

[ThinkHard]

Just throwing this out there as a possibility, so no need to get all defensive..

But if VM new her perp, and he her.....IF perhaps others were not aware of their connection, they might not have reason to suspect a friend or family member, even if that family member had summer time injuries, and drove an SUV.

Follow me for a second, if someone in your life who was currently living a town or two away from the crime scene, but who had grown up there....someone who you would NEVER suspect, someone who as far as you where are never knew this girl in the first place.....but happened to have some injury around that time....would you turn them in on that grounds alone? What if they drove a dark SUV? Would you then?

Please do not think I am accusing anyone of anything, I am simply saying that IF the nature of their relationship was for whatever reason somehow secret on one persons end or the other to people in their lives.....it could explain how someone could be in plain sight so to speak, without the very people who have seen any evidence having real reason to suspect anything.

 

[JEF]

There are no secrets in this digital age, not with a 27-year-old. If she had a "secret" relationship with a man from the area there would be an electronic footprint, especially considering that she lived in NYC. Police would have been to that person's home and gotten a DNA sample long ago. Instead four months have passed and they're looking for someone with knowledge of the general geographical area who may drive a dark SUV.
That says predator to me.

In approximately 90 percent of serial killings involving a woman 18-50 there is no prior relationship between victim and the unsub (it's much lower for children who are killed by serial predators). I am leaning toward the idea of an unsub who has killed before because of the high risk of the crime--broad daylight, half mile from home, one mile from police station, tight time frame, possible evidence of premeditation. You don't start with that.

Just throwing this out there as a possibility, so no need to get all defensive..

But if VM new her perp, and he her.....IF perhaps others were not aware of their connection, they might not have reason to suspect a friend or family member, even if that family member had summer time injuries, and drove an SUV.

Follow me for a second, if someone in your life who was currently living a town or two away from the crime scene, but who had grown up there....someone who you would NEVER suspect, someone who as far as you where are never knew this girl in the first place.....but happened to have some injury around that time....would you turn them in on that grounds alone? What if they drove a dark SUV? Would you then?

Please do not think I am accusing anyone of anything, I am simply saying that IF the nature of their relationship was for whatever reason somehow secret on one persons end or the other to people in their lives.....it could explain how someone could be in plain sight so to speak, without the very people who have seen any evidence having real reason to suspect anything.

 

[JEF]

One last thought - though I am somewhat doubtful an actual rape occurred (impotence?), I do believe sexual/power fantasies fueled the unsub - I believe she was tied to that pole, bound possibly by rope; investigators would be able to tell exactly how she was bound. My guess is it was the outgrowth of *advertiser censored*-fueled fantasies that ultimately weren't enough to satisfy his need for domination/power. If so, the unsub may have been arrogant enough to document the killing by taking photos and/or video. Either way, his arrogance may well be his undoing, either now or in the future.

If there were substance abuse problems, it's possible he sought treatment at some point in the past. There would be a record of that. Also, if this was an escalation there would be arrests over the past two years for lesser crimes, possibly violence-oriented. Perhaps there is even some overlap there; add to that a record of long-time residence in the general vicinity and blue-collar employment in nearby towns...

 

[ThinkHard]

There are no secrets in this digital age, not with a 27-year-old. If she had a "secret" relationship with a man from the area there would be an electronic footprint, especially considering that she lived in NYC. Police would have been to that person's home and gotten a DNA sample long ago. Instead four months have passed and they're looking for someone with knowledge of the general geographical area who may drive a dark SUV.
That says predator to me.

In approximately 90 percent of serial killings involving a woman 18-50 there is no prior relationship between victim and the unsub (it's much lower for children who are killed by serial predators). I am leaning toward the idea of an unsub who has killed before because of the high risk of the crime--broad daylight, half mile from home, one mile from police station, tight time frame, possible evidence of premeditation. You don't start with that.

Respectfully I disagree with you completely. There is ZERO evidence this is the act of a serial killer or that there is an active serial killer in the area.

So applying stats about a serial killer to this case seems useless to me. It's much more likely someone is killed by someone they know.

Lastly things like disposable phones would indicate a contact but certainly wouldn't be the digital footprint to figure out who that contact was. Young people who want to cover there digitial footprints can, especially infdividuals who went to school for IT.

 

[DatelineFan]

Could a woman have done this?

 

[ThinkHard]

One last thought - though I am somewhat doubtful an actual rape occurred (impotence?), I do believe sexual/power fantasies fueled the unsub - I believe she was tied to that pole, bound possibly by rope; investigators would be able to tell exactly how she was bound. My guess is it was the outgrowth of *advertiser censored*-fueled fantasies that ultimately weren't enough to satisfy his need for domination/power. If so, the unsub may have been arrogant enough to document the killing by taking photos and/or video. Either way, his arrogance may well be his undoing, either now or in the future.

If there were substance abuse problems, it's possible he sought treatment at some point in the past. There would be a record of that. Also, if this was an escalation there would be arrests over the past two years for lesser crimes, possibly violence-oriented. Perhaps there is even some overlap there; add to that a record of long-time residence in the general vicinity and blue-collar employment in nearby towns...

WOW I don't agree with anything about your theory whatsoever. It is totally in the opposite directions of what I see any facts pointing to in this case.

Please show me evidence of prior like events in the area that even indicate someone of that sadistic caliber is a operating in the area. As you said this would hardly be their first time if they are the type like you think, but I am unaware of any supporting data that would substantiate an active perp. I also do not see an active perp stalking a victim who's only in town 4 days a week.

 

[DatelineFan]

Respectfully I disagree with you completely. There is ZERO evidence this is the act of a serial killer or that there is an active serial killer in the area.

So applying stats about a serial killer to this case seems useless to me. It's much more likely someone is killed by someone they know.

Lastly things like disposable phones would indicate a contact but certainly wouldn't be the digital footprint to figure out who that contact was. Young people who want to cover there digitial footprints can, especially infdividuals who went to school for IT.

I agree that this is unlikely a serial killer. However, I don't think we've seen reason to believe she would be using a throwaway phone. I think there's likely an electronic trail of most of her interactions.

 

[ThinkHard]

I agree that this is unlikely a serial killer. However, I don't think we've seen reason to believe she would be using a throwaway phone. I think there's likely an electronic trail of most of her interactions.

I didn't mean she was, but he could have been.

Also there are ways to cover your tracks by apps that delete sent and received info.

 

[DatelineFan]

I didn't mean she was, but he could have been.

Also there are ways to cover your tracks by apps that delete sent and received info.

Definitely, there are ways to cover. But her phone provider would still have the information on the numbers she communicated with.

 

[JEF]

As for the theory about a secret relationship there is zero evidence to support it. As Dateline points out, not only would be there be a phone record of her interactions with the person, there would also be evidence on her laptop/tablet/computer as well. The idea of her using a burner phone or app that deletes interactions to conduct a secret relationship with someone from a small town hundreds of miles away from NYC is highly unlikely. Why would she possibly do that? She wasn't cheating and she was a grown woman. There is absolutely no need for that.

Add to that the idea that she somehow met or ran into this person when telling her family she was going for a run an hour before her bus on a Sunday also seems extremely unlikely.

I don't know if we're talking serial killer or not. But I believe this is not the unsub's first kill. I also think the pics of the crime scene suggest some of what I've said. At this point, local police, state police and the FBI have been through the vast majority of personal connections. Recent statements suggest they're looking in a different direction.