MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #5

[ForensicMass]

As I have said you are entitled to your opinion. But you aren't convincing me that year old SM data is more reliable then second hand info from her family...no matter how many ways you try to phrase it.

Again you can follow whatever you would like, but that doesn't mean others have to or will. and that's ok you don't have to keep trying to convince us.

I am just trying to put the FACTS out there. If we can't refer back to the specific way that something was said or the specific person that said it it's sort of loses all of its value, you know what I mean? We don't want to create a community of people here all referencing ideas that cannot be backed up, do we? It doesn't help us formulate a SOUND theory.


I understand that you think that data from a year previous is "old" data, and is therefore not useful. I think it is highly useful and in the scheme of things I would not consider it "old". Not to mention it's some of the only actual data that we have.

One reason you cited that this data isn't representative is because Vanessa started a new job at Google. I would like to point out that Vanessa started this job at Google in New York City approximately six months before the runs that are included in the data set. So to say that her life changed from that time because she got a job at Google is actually inaccurate. She had already been working there for 6 months when she visited Princeton and took these runs. Which is consistent with the scenario in question.

 

[ThinkHard]

I am just trying to put the FACTS out there. If we can't refer back to the specific way that something was said or the specific person that said it it's sort of loses all of its value, you know what I mean? We don't want to create a community of people here all referencing ideas that cannot be backed up, do we? It doesn't help us formulate a SOUND theory.


I understand that you think that data from a year previous is "old" data, and is therefore not useful. I think it is highly useful and in the scheme of things I would not consider it "old". Not to mention it's some of the only actual data that we have.

One reason you cited that this data isn't representative is because Vanessa started a new job at Google. I would like to point out that Vanessa started this job at Google in New York City approximately six months before the runs that are included in the data set. So to say that her life changed from that time because she got a job at Google is actually inaccurate. She had already been working there for 6 months when she visited Princeton and took these runs. Which is consistent with the scenario in question.

Yes I get that, but I had told you where I heard it from and how I heard it, and my reasoning for believing it. So I just don't understand why you keep harping on the same point over and over. It just feels redundant.

To me it feels like I keep acknowledging that's your take but I just don't see it that way and you keep saying but but but.

Respectfully can we just agree to disagree on this topic?

 

[Emb72]

Oh absoloutely. .if Princeton has its own stations, whether FedEx or UPS, my guess is they wouldn't be that large, similar to my husband's station. I think maybe they have 30 couriers and a few that work in the station. Now I do know they have Saturday couriers, but not sure about Princeton. So if it is a smaller station then I for sure would think the fellow co-workers would figure it out. I'm in washington and know about this story, it's huge! With all of that being said, if Princeton does not have a station and couriers are coming from a large, neighboring city, maybe it wouldn't be as easy to know? If it's a steady route, same courier, someone would figure it out. JMO

 

[Emb72]

Oh absoloutely. .if Princeton has its own stations, whether FedEx or UPS, my guess is they wouldn't be that large, similar to my husband's station. I think maybe they have 30 couriers and a few that work in the station. Now I do know they have Saturday couriers, but not sure about Princeton. So if it is a smaller station then I for sure would think the fellow co-workers would figure it out. I'm in washington and know about this story, it's huge! With all of that being said, if Princeton does not have a station and couriers are coming from a large, neighboring city, maybe it wouldn't be as easy to know? If it's a steady route, same courier, someone would figure it out. JMO

Thanks for the insight - it's exactly what I don't have!

So, it sounds like you're in agreement that a courier could learn a lot about a customer just through the delivery process. BUT you think that other local drivers would know the personal vehicle of the driver with the Princeton route and if it happened to be a dark SUV, someone might talk.


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[Coleraine]

As a point of interest, a woman was attacked recently while walking on a bike path in Milford, close to the Holliston line. I understand that Milford is an hour away from Princeton, but the attack, as described, was violent and brazen given the number of people who use the path. She was lucky to have escaped the attack. Again, I'm not making a connection to the attack on Vanessa in Princeton.

http://www.fox25boston.com/news/police-woman-assaulted-on-upper-charles-trail-in-milford/476840898

 

[ForensicMass]

Yes I get that, but I had told you where I heard it from and how I heard it, and my reasoning for believing it. So I just don't understand why you keep harping on the same point over and over. It just feels redundant.

To me it feels like I keep acknowledging that's your take but I just don't see it that way and you keep saying but but but.

Respectfully can we just agree to disagree on this topic?

Of course. We definitely do disagree, that's for sure!

ThinkHard is a huge part of the conversation here, and disregards the old running data, which I find could be useful in the case. I'm not feeling much support on the topic from others, so unless someone else wishes to continue the discussion, I will keep my thoughts and developments on it to myself. Since any such developments are met with resistance and seen only as me repeating myself.

 

[1306kayaker]

Good thought. A possibility IMO.

I'd like to bring up the related topic of LE's statement about the perp's knowledge of area. I made mental note of the wording because I think LE chooses wording very carefully. I saw some questions recently from ForensicMass and perhaps others on this topic, but didn't have chance to post at that time.

LE said that perp has (or likely has) knowledge of the "broad area." The word broad could be meaningful, IMO. I mean a perp who was local who didn't go much beyond the local area could have also commited this crime. I'm wondering why they would determine that he had knowledge of "broad" area? That to me implies he could travel for his job or had lived in area a long time and isn't the type to stay local. The wording could mean nothing, but it seems potentially meaningful. I'm wondering if they found something at the CS that leads them to believe he has knowledge of broad area?

Good point. We know they found and removed something from the vicinity of the crime scene on the Thursday following the crime, just before the 2nd press release. Video showed a small evidence bag - it could certainly have been something that the perp dropped, as opposed to something belonging to VM. Especially since the police has expanded their search field by this point - I believe some reports were referencing searches 1/2 mile south of the cart path. I'll have to go back to my notes for links.....


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[ForensicMass]

As a point of interest, a woman was attacked recently while walking on a bike path in Milford, close to the Holliston line. I understand that Milford is an hour away from Princeton, but the attack, as described, was violent and brazen given the number of people who use the path. She was lucky to have escaped the attack. Again, I'm not making a connection to the attack on Vanessa in Princeton.

http://www.fox25boston.com/news/police-woman-assaulted-on-upper-charles-trail-in-milford/476840898

WOW! I don't like the sound of that at all. The demographic of that area is certainly similar. Very well off, very few stores, very few security cameras, except at the houses. I dated a girl from sherborn. Her dad was a lawyer for Bank of America. It's the second wealthiest community in the state behind Dover, which is immediately adjacent.

I also don't like the brazen approach, and the striking on the head from behind. I have always considered that style of attack in the VM case.

I just read up on this. The witness reports the suspect was a white male, 6' in height with VERY BLUE EYES. Will be interesting to see if Genetic analysis determines that VANESSSAs killer had blue eyes. It's a recessive trait, so that helps narrow things. And further, a 6' white male with blue eyes could certainly be the handsome sociopath. Purely speculative of course.

 

[ThinkHard]

Oh absoloutely. .if Princeton has its own stations, whether FedEx or UPS, my guess is they wouldn't be that large, similar to my husband's station. I think maybe they have 30 couriers and a few that work in the station. Now I do know they have Saturday couriers, but not sure about Princeton. So if it is a smaller station then I for sure would think the fellow co-workers would figure it out. I'm in washington and know about this story, it's huge! With all of that being said, if Princeton does not have a station and couriers are coming from a large, neighboring city, maybe it wouldn't be as easy to know? If it's a steady route, same courier, someone would figure it out. JMO

The closet ones I believe are out of shrewsbury. Not sure if Leominster has one. Holden has a small UPS drop Location. But nothing in Princeton

 

[ThinkHard]

Of course. We definitely do disagree, that's for sure!

ThinkHard is a huge part of the conversation here, and disregards the old running data, which I find could be useful in the case. I'm not feeling much support on the topic from others, so unless someone else wishes to continue the discussion, I will keep my thoughts and developments on it to myself. Since any such developments are met with resistance and seen only as me repeating myself.

It's not that I don't think it's useful...it's that I don't happen to arrive on the conclusion you do from the information. I just don't think we can deduce habits a year later from old data...it could be a hint of course but I don't feel
It gives us any absolutes. And since I've heard her recent schedule was more regular I tend to lean toward that being the case. It doesn't mean I'm right. Again it's certainly ok if we disagree.

I'm not disregarding facts...I just don't think they tell us what you think they do.

 

[Rocky1]

I am just trying to put the FACTS out there. If we can't refer back to the specific way that something was said or the specific person that said it it's sort of loses all of its value, you know what I mean? We don't want to create a community of people here all referencing ideas that cannot be backed up, do we? It doesn't help us formulate a SOUND theory.


I understand that you think that data from a year previous is "old" data, and is therefore not useful. I think it is highly useful and in the scheme of things I would not consider it "old". Not to mention it's some of the only actual data that we have.

One reason you cited that this data isn't representative is because Vanessa started a new job at Google. I would like to point out that Vanessa started this job at Google in New York City approximately six months before the runs that are included in the data set. So to say that her life changed from that time because she got a job at Google is actually inaccurate. She had already been working there for 6 months when she visited Princeton and took these runs. Which is consistent with the scenario in question.

I agree, Sticking to the facts is a good idea. Stories grow wings rather quick, and the way something is said, means a lot. It may not be hard to weigh through it all here if someone is keeping up on the threads, but, for someone that just checks in every so often, they may read something that doesn't have "IMO," or "JMO," or "I could be wrong but.." after it, and read it as a fact. I'll give a few examples.
LE stated this.

Worcester District Attorney Joseph Early Jr. said Wednesday police are seeking a dark-colored SUV seen by witnesses parked on Brooks Station Road around the time Marcotte was killed. It was parked near where the woman’s body was found, Early said. No further details of the SUV have been provided.

That story has now grown here that it is a fact that that SUV was involved in this murder, when LE has not said that, and somehow everyone is supposed to put the blinders on, and only focus on that. Nothing could be further from the truth.
LE may just be trying to following up on a clue that may have nothing at all to do with this.
www.cbsnews.com/news/vanessa-marcotte-cops-search-for-suv-in-case-of-jogger-slain-in-massachusetts/

We have been discussing her jogging/walking and her routine. I will use your posts as an example. Don't take it wrong because I know everyone is thinking things out loud and may post just a thought, and we all do it, so not pointing fingers by any means.

Although it was in the high 80s that day, Data showing her walking in hot weather and not jogging, your own experience that it's not fun running in weather that hot, because it is oppressive, followed by your last post, saying that she may not have always ran before her return trip home to NY, is now fact that she was "definitely wearing jogging clothes and jogging that day," reading a few of your previous posts.
I know you typed that because you believe that to be true and were posting your opinion, but because there was no "IMO" etc, someone new may read that into being a fact.
MSM does the same thing, so it's not just here, and by no means am I trying to be the hall monitor.
We all have our theory, and I think it's great to throw them out here, and I also know that us as people tend to put the blinders on the more focused we become on one thought.

 

[ThinkHard]

WOW! I don't like the sound of that at all. The demographic of that area is certainly similar. Very well off, very few stores, very few security cameras, except at the houses. I dated a girl from sherborn. Her dad was a lawyer for Bank of America. It's the second wealthiest community in the state behind Dover, which is immediately adjacent.

I also don't like the brazen approach, and the striking on the head from behind. I have always considered that style of attack in the VM case.

I just read up on this. The witness reports the suspect was a white male, 6' in height with VERY BLUE EYES. Will be interesting to see if Genetic analysis determines that VANESSSAs killer had blue eyes. It's a recessive trait, so that helps narrow things. And further, a 6' white male with blue eyes could certainly be the handsome sociopath. Purely speculative of course.

I have never really consider Milford a nice town (it's MUCH MuCH more built up then Princeton) nor one adjacent to Sherborne , aren't they like 30 minutes apart? isn't Milford south down 495 around exit 15 and Sherborn east off rt 2? (From Princeton area anyway).

Are you sure you aren't confusing it with somewhere else?

Also Weston is the wealthiest community, Dover is second, Carlisle 3rd and Sherborne 4th.

 

[ForensicMass]

I agree, Sticking to the facts is a good idea. Stories grow wings rather quick, and the way something is said, means a lot. It may not be hard to weigh through it all here if someone is keeping up on the threads, but, for someone that just checks in every so often, they may read something that doesn't have "IMO," or "JMO," or "I could be wrong but.." after it, and read it as a fact. I'll give a few examples.
LE stated this.

Worcester District Attorney Joseph Early Jr. said Wednesday police are seeking a dark-colored SUV seen by witnesses parked on Brooks Station Road around the time Marcotte was killed. It was parked near where the woman’s body was found, Early said. No further details of the SUV have been provided.

That story has now grown here that it is a fact that that SUV was involved in this murder, when LE has not said that, and somehow everyone is supposed to put the blinders on, and only focus on that. Nothing could be further from the truth.
LE may just be trying to following up on a clue that may have nothing at all to do with this.
www.cbsnews.com/news/vanessa-marcotte-cops-search-for-suv-in-case-of-jogger-slain-in-massachusetts/

We have been discussing her jogging/walking and her routine. I will use your posts as an example. Don't take it wrong because I know everyone is thinking things out loud and may post just a thought, and we all do it, so not pointing fingers by any means.

Although it was in the high 80s that day, Data showing her walking in hot weather and not jogging, your own experience that it's not fun running in weather that hot, because it is oppressive, followed by your last post, saying that she may not have always ran before her return trip home to NY, is now fact that she was "definitely wearing jogging clothes and jogging that day," reading a few of your previous posts.
I know you typed that because you believe that to be true and were posting your opinion, but because there was no "IMO" etc, someone new may read that into being a fact.
MSM does the same thing, so it's not just here, and by no means am I trying to be the hall monitor.
We all have our theory, and I think it's great to throw them out here, and I also know that us as people tend to put the blinders on the more focused we become on one thought.

Your point is well received here. I need to be cogniscent of using IMO. Thanks!

By the way, just read something that further solidified my feeling that she was wearing exercise clothing. vanessa's obituary states her first two passions as running and yoga. The Obituary then goes on to say that she is a fashionista, and helped others with fashion.
It isn't a FACT, but the thought that Vanessa was wearing exercise clothing is substantially supported if at least by circumstantial evidence.

 

[Rocky1]

Of course. We definitely do disagree, that's for sure!

ThinkHard is a huge part of the conversation here, and disregards the old running data, which I find could be useful in the case. I'm not feeling much support on the topic from others, so unless someone else wishes to continue the discussion, I will keep my thoughts and developments on it to myself. Since any such developments are met with resistance and seen only as me repeating myself.

Thank you for sharing the data. I found it useful. I do believe that people can change certain patterns within a year though. Chrons, Becoming a more seasoned manager, using time management, becoming a creature of habit etc and doing things in a timely manner for example.

 

[Aleph]

According to a cursory look at Google, stinky sneaker fetish (or a foot odor fetish in general) is a thing.

 

[ThinkHard]

I agree, Sticking to the facts is a good idea. Stories grow wings rather quick, and the way something is said, means a lot. It may not be hard to weigh through it all here if someone is keeping up on the threads, but, for someone that just checks in every so often, they may read something that doesn't have "IMO," or "JMO," or "I could be wrong but.." after it, and read it as a fact. I'll give a few examples.
LE stated this.

Worcester District Attorney Joseph Early Jr. said Wednesday police are seeking a dark-colored SUV seen by witnesses parked on Brooks Station Road around the time Marcotte was killed. It was parked near where the woman’s body was found, Early said. No further details of the SUV have been provided.

That story has now grown here that it is a fact that that SUV was involved in this murder, when LE has not said that, and somehow everyone is supposed to put the blinders on, and only focus on that. Nothing could be further from the truth.
LE may just be trying to following up on a clue that may have nothing at all to do with this.
www.cbsnews.com/news/vanessa-marcotte-cops-search-for-suv-in-case-of-jogger-slain-in-massachusetts/

We have been discussing her jogging/walking and her routine. I will use your posts as an example. Don't take it wrong because I know everyone is thinking things out loud and may post just a thought, and we all do it, so not pointing fingers by any means.

Although it was in the high 80s that day, Data showing her walking in hot weather and not jogging, your own experience that it's not fun running in weather that hot, because it is oppressive, followed by your last post, saying that she may not have always ran before her return trip home to NY, is now fact that she was "definitely wearing jogging clothes and jogging that day," reading a few of your previous posts.
I know you typed that because you believe that to be true and were posting your opinion, but because there was no "IMO" etc, someone new may read that into being a fact.
MSM does the same thing, so it's not just here, and by no means am I trying to be the hall monitor.
We all have our theory, and I think it's great to throw them out here, and I also know that us as people tend to put the blinders on the more focused we become on one thought.

No one said LE stated that is fact. I can't speak for others but I can tell you what I said and that is that I personally believe that because LE has given us so little info AND because they waiting 4 month to release that info...that they did not do so lightly...that that info was thoroughly vetted and that I feel we should take that to mean LE has very very strong evidence that a dark SUV was involved.

To me it's ridiculous to say it could have really been a police vehicle, or just coincidently parked...they waited three months...they clearly vetted this info very carefully before making it public and their reason for doing so were obviously deliberate.

Pointing out facts and emphasizing why I think we should keep them in mind is hardly the same thing as saying that LE has stated the SUV was in fact involved.

 

[Rocky1]

Your point is well received here. I need to be cogniscent of using IMO. Thanks!

By the way, just read something that further solidified my feeling that she was wearing exercise clothing. vanessa's obituary states her first two passions as running and yoga. The Obituary then goes on to say that she is a fashionista, and helped others with fashion.
It isn't a FACT, but the thought that Vanessa was wearing exercise clothing is substantially supported if at least by circumstantial evidence.

Based on your post, fair to say that she wore exercise clothing when she went out to eat with her father the night before?

 

[ForensicMass]

I have never really consider Milford a nice town (it's MUCH MuCH more built up then Princeton) nor one adjacent to Sherborne , aren't they like 30 minutes apart? isn't Milford south down 495 around exit 15 and Sherborn east off rt 2? (From Princeton area anyway).

Are you sure you aren't confusing it with somewhere else?

Also Weston is the wealthiest community, Dover is second, Carlisle 3rd and Sherborne 4th.

Let me guess, Wikipedia? You get the point about the wealth. Those stats vary depending on your source and definition of wealth. Per capita income is one comparitive measure.


Milford is a bit of a tale of two cities. On One side, apparently near where this attack reportedly happened, It is beside Holliston, which is considerbly wealthy. In fact it's weathier than Princeton by a good margin. Much area within these towns remains undeveloped, and many houses have large lots like Princeton.

 

[Kickoff61]

For some reason it seems tense here. People want to be heard and others are also pushing and pushing things.

 

[ForensicMass]

Based on your post, fair to say that she wore exercise clothing when she went out to eat with her father the night before?

Absolutely not. But I can make an educated guess about what type of clothes she would have worn to dinner just the same. The clothing is context based. A trip to the store to hydrate within a half hour or hour of a run on a hot day, to me that can be grouped with the event. In fact, given her known passion for yoga. She likely stretched before her run, perhaps even before the trip to the store. So yes, exercise clothing is highly appropriate and likely at that time IMO. Similarly exercise clothing is completely inappropriate for dinner at the chophouse and I can guarantee you she wasn't wearing it (IMO)