MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #5

[liz b.]

I completely disagree about the standing appointment Theory. I never have believed that she was going to meet someone that day there is just simply zero evidence to support it. This girl could have whatever she wants in life. By all accounts she had things in order and certainly would not have to meet people secretly. JMO.

Also to quote you, where does it say EXPLICITLY that her runs were "she had a regular routine of taking a walk/run JUST before boarding the bus". Please provide a link to some video or article evidence which states this EXPLICITY. I think this is simply an Oversimplification or generalization of her usual "routine" of exercising while in Princeton. I could be wrong and you could be right. If you can show me some actual evidence, I'd be inclined to join your side.

And that doesn't make sense to begin with because JUST before boarding the bus to NYC we had to have someone drive her 35 minutes to Worcester.

RBBM :

Young women do have affairs sometimes, with people who are "unavailable". And they don't tell their close family members. Just a thought, NOT saying VM was in this situation. But, anything is possible. It was hot that early afternoon, wonder why she chose to run then ?

 

[ThinkHard]

I know they go back and wash out facts from the articles to protect the investigation. I am convinced that she did not have a usual 1 PM run. I am a runner myself, most of my friends are runners. I understand the various behaviors and habits of runners because I am constantly exposed to it. I have cited all kinds of reasons including historical data for why we shouldn't believe that she always ran at 1PM. If you want to ignore all of that and instead base your opinion on someone saying generally that she always ran before she went back to New York City- do you want to specifically interpret that to mean that she always ran at 1 PM, obviously that's your choice. You seem like a pretty sharp person, and on this particular issue I'm just not sure why all of the information I have provided on this seems weightless to you.

If we try to interpret her pattern regarding the time of her runs, if anything she was a morning runner. Looking at 17 runs worth of data The vast majority of them were early runs.

Frankly I think it is silly to assume she always ran at 1 o'clock regardless of the Rumors. That is just not what runners do, with the exception of a few friends I have that run at 5:30 in the morning because it is before the day begins. 1 o'clock is in the middle of the day. it is not a common planned running time at all, nor is it remotely the best time to run in the summer. Runners like to be comfortable. They would not choose to run at the hottest time of the day every time they run in the summer doesn't make sense.


If you have a trusted source then you've got more ground to stand on than I do. I have a lot of dealings with the public on other legal PR issues. What I can say with absolute certainty is that very often in my experience the public's perspectives and thoughts about things are far from the scientific truth. I won't get into specifics but I am dealing with a scenario elsewhere in mass. The public hearings on the matter are absurd. All kinds of opinions are being stated as facts. It'll probably all be hashed out in court eventually.

Look early on her family said she had a schedule/habit of taking a walk right before boarding her bus to head back to NYC, assuming her bus was always at 430, then her walk would have also been around the same time. Perhaps she took an earlier bus home at times and ran/walked earlier on those days. But I do know her family said she would always take a walk before her bus back. And this has been told to me my people who know VM's mom as well.

So I apologize I cannot find where the media originally reported it, but in my mind it doesn't make it any less true. And in my mind it makes a lot more sense to base off of what her own family has said, rather then year old data that was never consistent anyway.

We know something changed when her runs went private, so I think it's far to also point out it's likely her running changed in other ways too.



It's ok for us to disagree on this...I am honestly just never going to be convinced by her year old running info no matter how many ways you frame it.

Ps. You keep pointing out how odd her time for running was on that particular day....which is one of the reasons I think there could have been an alterier motive for her "walk". Since as you say a serious runner wouldn't pick the peak heat time.

Also i want to point out that I fully acknowledge she was a runner and I don't doubt she ran regularly...but if you were staying at your parents and didn't have a car and wanted to meet up with someone without drawing attention...the best lies are always the ones that have elements of truth...so IF she was covering for something...covering with an activity that no one would question is clearly the best cover there is....(speaking as someone who went through HS with a squeaky clean public image but plenty of experience experimenting under my belt...sorry mom and dad)

pss I have heard a lot of gossip...but I generally only take it with any grain of salt unless it's coming from someone in LE or DA, or who knows the Marcottes personally.

 

[searunner]

Ok, I'll buy it. If you are that suave though do you need to use all kinds of weird techie methods to track your victims at great distances or can you just Lure them on a date in a dark alley?

I'm not going to go down this "alley" much as I don't think it's all that useful for the discussion. Was simply addressing your statement about motivations of serial killers.

Briefly, no, some suave guy is not going to be able to willy nilly lure any woman he wants it or even most women into a dark alley by asking them on a date. Sure, there are women that fall over at the sight of someone handsome and charming, but not all women fall into that category. We're not all easily lured into some dark alley.

Again, I was simply addressing your statement. I am not supporting the pickup theory thrown out.

 

[Cem75]

RBBM :

Young women do have affairs sometimes, with people who are "unavailable". And they don't tell their close family members. Just a thought, NOT saying VM was in this situation. But, anything is possible. It was hot that early afternoon, wonder why she chose to run then ?

This is a very valid point. It also appears she went home regularly. Nothing wrong with being close to your family, but its a lot different from NYC, so something/someone was bringing her back there on a frequent basis.

Another thing: may not want to read too much into privacy settings change. If her avg pace and/or distance run declined due to medical condition, she may have wanted to hide her details from others. It would be entirely likely.

 

[ThinkHard]

Ok, I'll buy it. If you are that suave though do you need to use all kinds of weird techie methods to track your victims at great distances or can you just Lure them on a date in a dark alley?

Perhaps the hunt is part of the thrill.

 

[ThinkHard]

Hi all - I found this quote regarding a surveillance camera at Mountainside Market. It turns out they do have one and the video was (most likely) turned over to the police. I think it's an interesting theory that VM could have run into/been seen by someone there prior to leaving for her walk/run. It makes perfect sense to me that she could have been wearing her workout clothes when she stopped in, especially since she was there only about an hour prior to working out.

From the Boston Globe, 8/8: “Joanne Kay, manager of the Mountainside Market, a local bakery and cafe, said she plans to hand over surveillance video from her store to investigators because joggers, cyclists, and hikers frequently stop in for refreshments.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...tory.html?p1=Article_Related_Box_Article_More

But what would he have done btw spotting her at the store and her leaving her moms an hour later? I'm not sure i buy that. I don't think someone picking up lunch randomly spotted her and decided to drive around for an hour waiting to kill her.

If her killer saw her at the store that day, and itnlead to her death, I think
It would have to be someone who had seen her before and fantasizes about it for a while, or someone who knew her and she chatted with and mentioned the loop she planned that day. As in "oh hey V you headed out for a run? How far do you run?" Kind of thing.

 

[searunner]

I don't know how close they were but I do know they were "friends" as described
by her mother, I know nothing of the nature of the relationship beyond that. My friends Aunt who I know personally, is friends with VM's mom, and mentioned Mrs Marcotte said VM and TA were friends.

Thanks for that. It helps to know where info is coming from. If Mrs Marcotte knew of their friendship than it does seem like this was more than a just knowing someone casually in my age group from seeing them around, at parties or local events, type thing.

 

[Kickoff61]

There has been no specific time of death released. (or even cause of death) They wanted info. from time frame of 1 to 3 , yes. But, no evidence as to her being attacked at the beginning of the run. Maybe she was returning. There is so much information unknown.

 

[ThinkHard]

This is a very valid point. It also appears she went home regularly. Nothing wrong with being close to your family, but its a lot different from NYC, so something/someone was bringing her back there on a frequent basis.

Another thing: may not want to read too much into privacy settings change. If her avg pace and/or distance run declined due to medical condition, she may have wanted to hide her details from others. It would be entirely likely.

I have had this thought too, but it hasn't been a very popular idea. I have a lot of similarities to VM including being from here and moving to NYC. As an only child I'm very close to my parents but I don't tell them everything. And the ONLY time I came home from the city bimonthly was when there was a guy back home I was seeing ... my parents were unaware of him though until it became serious. When I was with him I would tell my parents I was with friends. When I knew he was the real deal I of course wanted him to meet my parents.

But children can be secretive sometimes, and when you are an only child with all of your parents attention sometimes you keep things from them because their well intended attention can also be a lot of pressure. And I personally never wanted to even talk about people I was dating with my parents until as I said I knew it was gonna stick. If it failed, it felt like showing a failure to your parents. So sometimes I think only children hold a lot of stuff close because it's a way to have privacy....even with very loving and caring but always present parents...when you are an only you have a lot riding on you, so disappointing your parents is a big deal...whether it's through relationships or school....you feel like you fail them. And if you are a type A high achiever that's all added pressure you put on yourself...so you don't tell them everything because sometimes always getting it right is a lot of pressure. (At least this is my experience as an only).

it's a weird dynamic...perhaps there are other only children that can articulate that better.

 

[ThinkHard]

Thanks for that. It helps to know where info is coming from. If Mrs Marcotte knew of their friendship than it does seem like this was more than a just knowing someone casually in my age group from seeing them around, at parties or local events, type thing.

Yeah he would have lived close by, maybe 4 miles? So it's possible Mrs Marcotte had met him before, but I don't know that she ever did.

 

[1306kayaker]

But what would he have done btw spotting her at the store and her leaving her moms an hour later? I'm not sure i buy that. I don't think someone picking up lunch randomly spotted her and decided to drive around for an hour waiting to kill her.

If her killer saw her at the store that day, and itnlead to her death, I think
It would have to be someone who had seen her before and fantasizes about it for a while, or someone who knew her and she chatted with and mentioned the loop she planned that day. As in "oh hey V you headed out for a run? How far do you run?" Kind of thing.

I'm not sold on the theory that someone spotted her at the market but I do think it's an interesting discussion that we hadn't really gotten into on previous threads. It's a stretch but someone could have followed her out of the market, seen where she lived, and drove up and down BSR a few times waiting for her to start her walk. It was only an hour or less b/t the time she was at the Market (~12:00) and the time she left for her walk (~1:00). I am in agreement with you that, whatever the situation, the killer at least knew of VM, and maybe even already knew where she lived.

 

[searunner]

But what would he have done btw spotting her at the store and her leaving her moms an hour later? I'm not sure i buy that. I don't think someone picking up lunch randomly spotted her and decided to drive around for an hour waiting to kill her.

If her killer saw her at the store that day, and itnlead to her death, I think
It would have to be someone who had seen her before and fantasizes about it for a while, or someone who knew her and she chatted with and mentioned the loop she planned that day. As in "oh hey V you headed out for a run? How far do you run?" Kind of thing.

Agree with this line of thought. As to the whole store connection thing, if one existed, he likely had seen her before and had been waiting for an opportunity or he knew her. This want not a case of some out-of-towner or even relatively local person seeing her for the first time and deciding immediately to either abduct or kill her IMO. Meaning I don't think she was a random victim, though it can't be entirely ruled out.

Great to hear about the video footage though. Only wish we were privvy to info about it - or anything for that matter.

 

[1306kayaker]

Here’s another idea regarding the “WHO” that I’ve seen this mentioned briefly in a couple of other posts. How about local delivery drivers – FedEx / UPS? They would be familiar with the area but not necessarily Princeton residents, they could have seen VM out running, and may even have come into contact with VM directly if delivering a package to her house.

What if a driver somehow comes in contact with VM during a standard delivery then uses his delivery route to further track her movements and become familiar with the area in the vicinity of her house/jogging route. Maybe he even obtains information about her through the delivery system – name, address, etc. From there it doesn’t take much to do a little cyber-stalking and learn much more about her routines – as we’ve shown via Map My Run, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter.

 

[searunner]

ThinkHard -

Couple of questions:

1. Where did LE ask residents to give voluntarily DNA? Princeton just local to CS, all of Princeton, or also towns just outside Princeton? This might be ongoing as if the area they intend to cover is very big, it could take some time. I'm hoping they go this route at least at some point. The chances of the perp having a close blood relative is the general vicinity seems high IMO. Sure some folks might be innocent and refuse on privacy or other grounds, but it would at least narrow the field somewhat.

2. Do you know if the FBI is still involved? We know they were involved early on - and there must be some reason they were brought in so early. I'd not imagine you know this as it's probably kept extremely hush, but figured it was worth asking.

Thanks!

 

[ThinkHard]

Ok forgive me, but I am just going to propose a totally wild theory. There was a case in Lrinceton about a weeek before xmas a few years back...it would have been when VM was in college by my calculations...and likely home on xmas break. perhaps with her moms at her aunt and uncles in Princeton...anyway a dentist and his wife throw a xmas party...a few night later they get into a fight over his infidelity and he throws her out their 3rd story gym window in the middle of the night.

He's denied it, he's refused to turn over his cell phone, the whole thing has been relatively quiet...but manslaughter chargers are going foreword as of May.

Ok so crazy idea ... what if VM witnessed something at that party? Other totally crazy idea, he's a fairly wealthy man who could have paid someone else to do it.

Ok I know this is a stretch and I have no idea if VM was at that party, but her aunt and uncle had lived there for around 30 years and they did sort of live around the corner...so you never know they may have been invited.

I'm sure police would be aware of VM's name was in any way connected to being a witness in that case..and I'd think they would have looked into it.

BUT that doesn't mean we would be aware of that or if ther are aware but unaware of who it was he hired.

OK yes a a stretch and admittedly more like a lifetime movie....but we are talking about a man who shoved his wife out the window after cheating on her and lying through his teeth about it ever since...who happens to live around the corner at the beginning of Worcester Road....and in the spirit of being thorough...

 

[ThinkHard]

ThinkHard -

Couple of questions:

1. Where did LE ask residents to give voluntarily DNA? Princeton just local to CS, all of Princeton, or also towns just outside Princeton? This might be ongoing as if the area they intend to cover is very big, it could take some time. I'm hoping they go this route at least at some point. The chances of the perp having a close blood relative is the general vicinity seems high IMO. Sure some folks might be innocent and refuse on privacy or other grounds, but it would at least narrow the field somewhat.

2. Do you know if the FBI is still involved? We know they were involved early on - and there must be some reason they were brought in so early. I'd not imagine you know this as it's probably kept extremely hush, but figured it was worth asking.

Thanks!

I don't know how far the search went I just know people who live about a mile from my parents who have had their doors knocked on and given samples, and they are on the Princeton line in Holden. I haven't heard of anyone outside of Princeton having their doors knocked on...and I know some Princeton people out toward Redemotion Rock Trail that haven't been approach for DNA samples at all.

I don't know whether the FBI is still involved or not one way or another.

 

[ThinkHard]

Here’s another idea regarding the “WHO” that I’ve seen this mentioned briefly in a couple of other posts. How about local delivery drivers – FedEx / UPS? They would be familiar with the area but not necessarily Princeton residents, they could have seen VM out running, and may even have come into contact with VM directly if delivering a package to her house.

What if a driver somehow comes in contact with VM during a standard delivery then uses his delivery route to further track her movements and become familiar with the area in the vicinity of her house/jogging route. Maybe he even obtains information about her through the delivery system – name, address, etc. From there it doesn’t take much to do a little cyber-stalking and learn much more about her routines – as we’ve shown via Map My Run, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter.

It's a good thought. but she was mostly home on weekends and most packages are delivered during the week...which I think would lower the probability of being spotting under these circumstances. Not eliminate it of course, just lower it.

 

[searunner]

Here’s another idea regarding the “WHO” that I’ve seen this mentioned briefly in a couple of other posts. How about local delivery drivers – FedEx / UPS? They would be familiar with the area but not necessarily Princeton residents, they could have seen VM out running, and may even have come into contact with VM directly if delivering a package to her house.

What if a driver somehow comes in contact with VM during a standard delivery then uses his delivery route to further track her movements and become familiar with the area in the vicinity of her house/jogging route. Maybe he even obtains information about her through the delivery system – name, address, etc. From there it doesn’t take much to do a little cyber-stalking and learn much more about her routines – as we’ve shown via Map My Run, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter.

Good thought. A possibility IMO.

I'd like to bring up the related topic of LE's statement about the perp's knowledge of area. I made mental note of the wording because I think LE chooses wording very carefully. I saw some questions recently from ForensicMass and perhaps others on this topic, but didn't have chance to post at that time.

LE said that perp has (or likely has) knowledge of the "broad area." The word broad could be meaningful, IMO. I mean a perp who was local who didn't go much beyond the local area could have also commited this crime. I'm wondering why they would determine that he had knowledge of "broad" area? That to me implies he could travel for his job or had lived in area a long time and isn't the type to stay local. The wording could mean nothing, but it seems potentially meaningful. I'm wondering if they found something at the CS that leads them to believe he has knowledge of broad area?

 

[Cem75]

I have had this thought too, but it hasn't been a very popular idea. I have a lot of similarities to VM including being from here and moving to NYC. As an only child I'm very close to my parents but I don't tell them everything. And the ONLY time I came home from the city bimonthly was when there was a guy back home I was seeing ... my parents were unaware of him though until it became serious. When I was with him I would tell my parents I was with friends. When I knew he was the real deal I of course wanted him to meet my parents.

But children can be secretive sometimes, and when you are an only child with all of your parents attention sometimes you keep things from them because their well intended attention can also be a lot of pressure. And I personally never wanted to even talk about people I was dating with my parents until as I said I knew it was gonna stick. If it failed, it felt like showing a failure to your parents. So sometimes I think only children hold a lot of stuff close because it's a way to have privacy....even with very loving and caring but always present parents...when you are an only you have a lot riding on you, so disappointing your parents is a big deal...whether it's through relationships or school....you feel like you fail them. And if you are a type A high achiever that's all added pressure you put on yourself...so you don't tell them everything because sometimes always getting it right is a lot of pressure. (At least this is my experience as an only).

it's a weird dynamic...perhaps there are other only children that can articulate that better.

I do think being an only child makes her schedule more routine. Another reason she went to private setting was if she was indeed using the exercise excise in order to see someone...

if it was a secret fling it is fair to say LE is on him but just does not have enough to indict.

 

[ForensicMass]

I'm not sold on the theory that someone spotted her at the market but I do think it's an interesting discussion that we hadn't really gotten into on previous threads. It's a stretch but someone could have followed her out of the market, seen where she lived, and drove up and down BSR a few times waiting for her to start her walk. It was only an hour or less b/t the time she was at the Market (~12:00) and the time she left for her walk (~1:00). I am in agreement with you that, whatever the situation, the killer at least knew of VM, and maybe even already knew where she lived.

Thanks for that. For some reason my hypotheticals don't seem to weigh very much. I don't necessarily think that someone saw her at the store for certain, but it would make sense to me that someone saw her around the time of her run, but before it started. My primary reason for thinking this is that I do believe she was attacked less than 1/2 mile into her run (first 7 minutes or so). I do not believe that someone was expecting her to run by at precisely that time based on some notion that she previously ran at that exact time, rather someone had fresh information about her schedule that particular day. Since I don't think there was any electronic communication by which someone could have learned of her schedule that day, I can't think of any other place other than her trip to the store, or possibly a run The previous day, though as far as I know we do not know if she took one.