MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #5

[ForensicMass]

You never know. When I'd come home from the city I'd hang out in Worcester because it's where you would run into old HS friends. I had my NYC friends of course and hanging out in the city was very different then Worcester bars...but when you are home it can be fun to run into old faces...and everyone pretty much goes to the same places.

ps 111 is super overrated, I mean it's ok, but it's far from the best of Worcester.
The absolute best restaurant in Worcester is Baba. If you like sushi go there! It's on par with Nobu and I don't say that lightly.

It's true she could have friends in the local area.


Off topic - Been to baba. Agree it's top notch. I'm not that big on sushi but I would say it's probably the best sushi restaurant I've ever been to.

 

[ThinkHard]

Thanks kindly. I have an odd mind, my friends tell me. I'm just hoping to offer a different perspective. I realize I need to refine the tones of my writing as it sounds harsh and sharp, even to me, when I read it back, but it's not how I mean it. I'm just here to toss out ideas that I had not seen completely hashed out in the first 4.8 threads. Conversation had slowed considerably and seems to have picked up greatly, so I'm happy with that! To anyone who has felt bulldozed by me, I never mean to make anyone feel that way and am sorry! I think the sparring of ideas in general though, can be a good thing. I have certainly had to think of things differently since joining the conversation.

Maybe it's me, but I do feel like there is progress being made here. The More each scenario is discussed the more we are able to distinguish plausible theories from those that are really unlikely.

With all of the info discussed to date, and incorporating what LE has been saying,

It does seem to be someone local, and to me it does seem like someone who had physically seen VANESSA at some point prior to the incident. My feeling is that same day, triggering the events that followed.

I think there certainly could be value to her old running data, even though almost a year old. Here's why:
1-People are generally resistant to change and creatures of habit. Most people who establish a habit around the way they exercise hold on to it.
2-Princeton is a small town that really hasn't changed much in 100 years. I've worked there for 10 years on and off and it's always the same thing there. I see some of the same people, the atmosphere is the same. If this guy was a local, very likely he was there back then too. And if we think he saw her running previously, it would seem that he could have seen her in summer 2015.

I am very interested in any information regarding the happenings in Princeton during the first week of September 2015, as we know Vanessa was there, and was visible to the community, running on the street on the 3,4,&6th. On those days she ran at 7:14AM on Thursday, 12:02 PM on Friday, and 10:25 AM on Sunday.

I am especially interested in police log entries about suspicious vehicles during this period. I have to dig into the logs. I see the logs posted for sept 6th. (Thanks to whoever dug that up!! Can we also get the prior week to see calls on the 3rd?)

Type in Princeton MA police logs and then the date that would be the Thursday after the date in question. The Landmark always comes out on Thursday and it is where the PL is published.

 

[ForensicMass]

This has been reported to an extend, we know she went to the store around. On to get a drink and she left for her run from her moms house around 1:15.

Since I'm guessing she didn't walk to the store to get a drink to take a walk later, we can safely assume she drove there. We haven't heard she went anywhere else.

So she drives to the store and buys a drink around noon. Drives back to her moms...and perhaps changes for her run and heads out...

The store would be a 15 minute trip tops, door to door.

So there is a window she would have been back at her moms of about 30-60 minutes btw the store errand and her walk/run.

This is good. It's useful to hash out the particulars here. I will add that she definitely could have changed into running clothes before going to get a drink as the drink trip was likely with the workout in mind. I know I put my stuff on many times before going to the store for the same reason. And then I might travel 30 minutes to get to somewhere fun to run. The driving to the store aspect is exactly what I was thinking. If she were going to walk to the store they would not have been a second walk that day, is the store is walkable distance for her. It would have served as the workout in and of itself. So she drove to the store and drove back home and had a maximum timeframe of about one hour before she went running,at a minimum timeframe of about a half an hour. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

 

[ForensicMass]

Type in Princeton MA police logs and then the date that would be the Thursday after the date in question. The Landmark always comes out on Thursday and it is where the PL is published.

Excellent thank you !

 

[ForensicMass]

I think a lot of the "sparring" when we hash out ideas has a lot to do with tone over the computer. I feel like if we were all in a room together we couldn't hash out and pick apart ideas and offend people a lot less while we do it

Agree. I love everyone here for the simple fact that we are devoting time to a good cause. Someone needs to nail this guy.

 

[ForensicMass]

It took LE 3 months to release the info on the SUV....something tells me that info was vetted extensively and LE has very very very good reason to know it's involved. There were also a lot of reports of trucks and even light colored vehicles that day on BSR too...yet this is the vehicle info they feel is connected to this case...so it is my belief they have very very good reason for thinking this regardless if we know what they know. If it was a mistaken sighting....or a coincidence I think over 3 months LEvwould have worked through those kinks....let's give them a little credit. I think the SUV was 100% connected or I don't think LE would have released that.

So I think it serves us better to build possibilities around that fact, rather then build other stories where that fact doesn't fit and dismiss it because it doesn't fit.

To me it's obvious it's part of the story...so we should focus on how. JMO

YES, SI, WE. I wish I knew more languages to say the word YES in. You articulated very well. any good theory involves the SUV in some fashion at this point as far as I am concerned

 

[ThinkHard]

I completely disagree about the standing appointment Theory. I never have believed that she was going to meet someone that day there is just simply zero evidence to support it. This girl could have whatever she wants in life. By all accounts she had things in order and certainly would not have to meet people secretly. JMO.

Also to quote you, where does it say EXPLICITLY that her runs were "she had a regular routine of taking a walk/run JUST before boarding the bus". Please provide a link to some video or article evidence which states this EXPLICITY. I think this is simply an Oversimplification or generalization of her usual "routine" of exercising while in Princeton. I could be wrong and you could be right. If you can show me some actual evidence, I'd be inclined to join your side.

And that doesn't make sense to begin with because JUST before boarding the bus to NYC we had to have someone drive her 35 minutes to Worcester.

Respectfully but if she was meeting someone secretly ... well "secret" does kind of imply no one would have evidence to support it. That's what secret is after all.

Look she was probably a great person but she was also human. She wasn't some untouchable being...she was a real person with real conflicting thoughts and feelings. Sometimes love makes even the smartest people do silly things.

We can't sit here and saint her, because that doesn't help solve a case. We have to be willing to explore many angles. People are complicated.

What I can tell you is LE has enough info to feel this is not random. I do not know what that is, but I do know they do not think this is random.

I believe this story has more layers to it then many are realizing. I don't think it's a simple story of a random victim and a random perp. I think the answer lies in the aspects of her life that have not been shared publicly.

Regarding when that was stated about her having a habit of taking a walk before boarding the bus...it was early on in the investigation and it was emphasized...I don't really have the energy to track down old news stories but it is there and I choose to believe this over the idea she was still following or not following a running schedule based on year old data when so much in her life had changed.

And yes it very much makes sense....we talked about these details at length on these boards because we discussed if she had a regular run time...then they would have expected her back at a regular time precisely because she did have the bus to board and perhaps a shower to take and a bag to pack before leaving the house by 4 at the latest to make the 430 bus. Which again makes perfect sense because it is precisely why her family was running a ping on her phone at 225, and was running around to neighbors at 430 panicked because they could t find her...cause she should have been on the bus at that time.

Of course this is how I am seeing it, you are of course entitled to see it any way you choose. I will confess I know someone people closely connected and have only been told "leanings" we'll call them, but with no specifics,so that might affect the way I am seeing things at least to an extent. I am not trying to spread any gossip, just confessing in full disclosure that my position as a local and things I hear might influence me a bit whether I mean to or not.

 

[ForensicMass]

Respectfully but if she was meeting someone secretly ... well "secret" does kind of imply no one would have evidence to support it. That's what secret is after all.

Look she was probably a great person but she was also human. She wasn't some untouchable being...she was a real person with real conflicting thoughts and feelings. Sometimes love makes even the smartest people do silly things.

We can't sit here and saint her, because that doesn't help solve a case. We have to be willing to explore many angles. People are complicated.

What I can tell you is LE has enough info to feel this is not random. I do not know what that is, but I do know they do not think this is random.

I believe this story has more layers to it then many are realizing. I don't think it's a simple story of a random victim and a random perp. I think the answer lies in the aspects of her life that have not been shared publicly.

Regarding when that was stated about her having a habit of taking a walk before boarding the bus...it was early on in the investigation and it was emphasized...I don't really have the energy to track down old news stories but it is there and I choose to believe this over the idea she was still following or not following a running schedule based on year old data when so much in her life had changed.

And yes it very much makes sense....we talked about these details at length on these boards because we discussed if she had a regular run time...then they would have expected her back at a regular time precisely because she did have the bus to board and perhaps a shower to take and a bag to pack before leaving the house by 4 at the latest to make the 430 bus. Which again makes perfect sense because it is precisely why her family was running a ping on her phone at 225, and was running around to neighbors at 430 panicked because they could t find her...cause she should have been on the bus at that time.

Respectfully, I have a pretty sharp memory and I read through the entire thread and checked every link and read every story over the last week so it is all quite fresh in my mind. There were allusions to the fact that she ran while in Princeton before heading back to New York but nothing specific regarding a timeline for those runs. Something specific been mentioned I would have incorporated it immediately into my theory. But nothing specific was mentioned. I know it's a pain for you to go back and read through everything but if you have information it specifically states that she ran immediately preceding her trips back to New York that would be useful to identify as factual to the case. As I said I've through everything very recently and did not see anything specific as you remember it.

I am also curious as to when you heard that law-enforcement was decidedly of the opinion that this was not random. if that is the case, that is a big break, and a definite change from everything that I have heard/read. I have not heard law-enforcement say that they do not believe this was random. I have only heard them say that they cannot be certain whether or not it was random. Can you link any specific information related to this? Press conference video perhaps? Something I may have missed.

You are totally right I'm sure Vanessa had her own problems secrets and demons. And a few enemies too. That's all just part of life.

But she was definitely a runner we know that for sure and to insinuate that this trip was something other than going out to exercise doesn't fit with the history. If she had some kind of long-standing meet up time with someone, how does that fit with the fact that last summer she was in Princeton and ran routinely? I definitely get that she could have known people in the local area and she could have had friends and enemies both in the local area. But I don't get the idea that her exercise schedule was somehow a disguise for something else, specially given that we can see via a window using historical data, this girl covered some serious distance at times on her runs. Sometimes 8 miles. She was conscious of her fitness and I have every reason to believe that reason she left the house that day was for fitness and clarity of mind. Not to meet anyone. AGAIN JMO. If some evidence can be shown to the contrary I will certainly process and except it but as of now I don't see any evidence or any reason to head in that direction.

Regarding the last paragraph I can dissect that fairly easily. If she happened to leave the house at 1:15 that particular day knowing that she had to be home by 3 o'clock that would obviously cause concern when she had not come home. Simply from that we cannot extrapolate that she normally ran at this time that is not a logical conclusion That can be drawn. What can bE drawn is that on that day, given the time she ran, she and her family both knew that she had only 2 hours of free time ON THAT GIVEN DAY. And when she exceeded that timeframe, it was immediately concerning.

 

[ThinkHard]

I just had a thought. I'm not very tech savvy...but if someone was...could they put on a app on someone's phone under the premise of "let me give you my number".... an app that allows that person to track the phone like a personal gps? Could he then erase that app from her phone after he killed her?

I'll admit I haven't been big on the serial killer angle...but if you are a swauve and attractive male who decides to be a serial killer why not pick up women in bars, "get there numbers", learn there habits, earn their trust...and then plan their attack. It would make it really easy for him to know where they are...perhaps even know all about them...then execute there kill.

Sounds crazy I know, but it would give him access and remove a digitial footprint.

 

[ThinkHard]

Respectfully, I have a pretty sharp memory and I read through the entire thread and checked every link and read every story over the last week so it is all quite fresh in my mind. There were allusions to the fact that she ran while in Princeton before heading back to New York but nothing specific regarding a timeline for those runs. Something specific been mentioned I would have incorporated it immediately into my theory. But nothing specific was mentioned. I know it's a pain for you to go back and read through everything but if you have information it specifically states that she ran immediately preceding her trips back to New York that would be useful to identify as factual to the case. As I said I've through everything very recently and did not see anything specific as you remember it.

I am also curious as to when you heard that law-enforcement was decidedly of the opinion that this was not random. if that is the case, that is a big break, and a definite change from everything that I have heard/read. I have not heard law-enforcement say that they do not believe this was random. I have only heard them say that they cannot be certain whether or not it was random. Can you link any specific information related to this? Press conference video perhaps? Something I may have missed.

You are totally right I'm sure Vanessa had her own problems secrets and demons. And a few enemies too. That's all just part of life.

But she was definitely a runner we know that for sure and to insinuate that this trip was something other than going out to exercise doesn't fit with the history. If she had some kind of long-standing meet up time with someone, how does that fit with the fact that last summer she was in Princeton and ran routinely? I definitely get that she could have known people in the local area and she could have had friends and enemies both in the local area. But I don't get the idea that her exercise schedule was somehow a disguise for something else, specially given that we can see via a window using historical data, this girl covered some serious distance at times on her runs. Sometimes 8 miles. She was conscious of her fitness and I have every reason to believe that reason she left the house that day was for fitness and clarity of mind. Not to meet anyone. AGAIN JMO. If some evidence can be shown to the contrary I will certainly process and except it but as of now I don't see any evidence or any reason to head in that direction.

Regarding the last paragraph I can dissect that fairly easily. If she happened to leave the house at 1:15 that particular day knowing that she had to be home by 3 o'clock that would obviously cause concern when she had not come home. Simply from that we cannot extrapolate that she normally ran at this time that is not a logical conclusion That can be drawn. What can bE drawn is that on that day, given the time she ran, she and her family both knew that she had only 2 hours of free time ON THAT GIVEN DAY. And when she exceeded that timeframe, it was immediately concerning.

I don't remember where it was said she her family said she took walks/runs before boarding her bus back, but it was. A lot gets cut out of early media articles later on...I don't know why but it's just that way it is, ask anyone here. But I absolutely remembering discussusing it because it was part of the early stuff that came out, and the fact that she has such a routine was emphasized over and over again saying it made her a more easy target for someone stalking her.

Regarding LE leaning toward it not being random, I have no specifics only that it didn't seem to be random was told to me by someone connected to the case and someone connected to VM's mom. So hearing those things simply because people around town do talk, though I can't show you an article to support it,it does effect how I see this case and what angles seem most or least likely to me.

 

[ForensicMass]

I just had a thought. I'm not very tech savvy...but if someone was...could they put on a app on someone's phone under the premise of "let me give you my number".... an app that allows that person to track the phone like a personal gps? Could he then erase that app from her phone after he killed her?

I'll admit I haven't been big on the serial killer angle...but if you are a swauve and attractive male who decides to be a serial killer why not pick up women in bars, "get there numbers", learn there habits, earn their trust...and then plan their attack. It would make it really easy for him to know where they are...perhaps even know all about them...then execute there kill.

Sounds crazy I know, but it would give him access and remove a digitial footprint.

Aren't most of these serial killer types mad because they can't get attention from girls? The guy in your scenario sounds like a player who can rack up notches in the bedpost so to speak. If he's that suave and he's getting attention from women he must only be motivated by power and not sex.

 

[searunner]

Her Aunt and Uncle have been living in the Princeton house for decades. The mom moved there after the divorce like you said around 2005. Which would have been about VM's last year and a half in HS. So not sure if she was living in Princeton as a senior in HS or stayed in Leominster with her dad.

Also just FYI but Bancroft kids often come from the Wachusett towns (Holden, Paxton, Princeton, Rutland, sterling)....so she would have gone to school at Bancroft with "local" kids. And it wouldn't be uncommon for her to hang out with public school kids through mutual associations. I went to WRHS but had 2 good friends at Bancroft and new most of their class. The point is she may have had more local associations then might be immediately obvious. For example she was friends with the kid from Rutland who died in the one way crash on the mass pike even though he went to WRHS.

I figured she probably knew the Rutland guy who drove into oncoming traffic the night after the murder killing himself and critically injuring others. That's because of the regional aspect of the 5-town area wrt school system etc, as you had previously described. I live in an area with some regional school systems and went to a private school myself, so totally get the scenario.

However, you said "friends with" -- are you using the term friends very loosely or do you mean it as it's generally defined? (Or as it was defined before Facebook.) Also how do you know this?

Thanks ThinkHard.

 

[ForensicMass]

I don't remember where it was said she her family said she took walks/runs before boarding her bus back, but it was. A lot gets cut out of early media articles later on...I don't know why but it's just that way it is, ask anyone here. But I absolutely remembering discussusing it because it was part of the early stuff that came out, and the fact that she has such a routine was emphasized over and over again saying it made her a more easy target for someone stalking her.

Regarding LE leaning toward it not being random, I have no specifics only that it didn't seem to be random was told to me by someone connected to the case and someone connected to VM's mom. So hearing those things simply because people around town do talk, though I can't show you an article to support it,it does effect how I see this case and what angles seem most or least likely to me.

I know they go back and wash out facts from the articles to protect the investigation. I am convinced that she did not have a usual 1 PM run. I am a runner myself, most of my friends are runners. I understand the various behaviors and habits of runners because I am constantly exposed to it. I have cited all kinds of reasons including historical data for why we shouldn't believe that she always ran at 1PM. If you want to ignore all of that and instead base your opinion on someone saying generally that she always ran before she went back to New York City- do you want to specifically interpret that to mean that she always ran at 1 PM, obviously that's your choice. You seem like a pretty sharp person, and on this particular issue I'm just not sure why all of the information I have provided on this seems weightless to you.

If we try to interpret her pattern regarding the time of her runs, if anything she was a morning runner. Looking at 17 runs worth of data The vast majority of them were early runs.

Frankly I think it is silly to assume she always ran at 1 o'clock regardless of the Rumors. That is just not what runners do, with the exception of a few friends I have that run at 5:30 in the morning because it is before the day begins. 1 o'clock is in the middle of the day. it is not a common planned running time at all, nor is it remotely the best time to run in the summer. Runners like to be comfortable. They would not choose to run at the hottest time of the day every time they run in the summer doesn't make sense.


If you have a trusted source then you've got more ground to stand on than I do. I have a lot of dealings with the public on other legal PR issues. What I can say with absolute certainty is that very often in my experience the public's perspectives and thoughts about things are far from the scientific truth. I won't get into specifics but I am dealing with a scenario elsewhere in mass. The public hearings on the matter are absurd. All kinds of opinions are being stated as facts. It'll probably all be hashed out in court eventually.

 

[searunner]

Aren't most of these serial killer types mad because they can't get attention from girls? The guy in your scenario sounds like a player who can rack up notches in the bedpost so to speak. If he's that suave and he's getting attention from women he must only be motivated by power and not sex.

Serial killers are not mostly motivated by anger that they can't get attention from "girls." Look at Ted Bundy - women loved him. They are sociopaths - and by definition sociopaths can often be quite charming.

 

[ForensicMass]

I figured she probably knew the Rutland guy who drove into oncoming traffic the night after the murder killing himself and critically injuring others. That's because of the regional aspect of the 5-town area wrt school system etc, as you had previously described. I live in an area with some regional school systems and went to a private school myself, so totally get the scenario.

However, you said "friends with" -- are you using the term friends very loosely or do you mean it as it's generally defined? (Or as it was defined before Facebook.) Also how do you know this?

Thanks ThinkHard.

Yea That's certainly interesting. Do we know anything about the depth/breadth of their relationship

 

[ForensicMass]

Serial killers are not mostly motivated by anger that they can't get attention from "girls." Look at Ted Bundy - women loved him. They are sociopaths - and by definition sociopaths can often be quite charming.

Ok, I'll buy it. If you are that suave though do you need to use all kinds of weird techie methods to track your victims at great distances or can you just Lure them on a date in a dark alley?

 

[liz b.]

Is there of a variant of foot fetishist that's into sweaty women's running shoes? Seriously wondering about that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unfortunately specific knowledge of variants of foot/shoe fetishes are not within my skillset. Perhaps this killer is turned on by such things, who knows ? I tend to think that if he took her shoe it was as a momento, a way of reliving the event. He may well have a fetish about fit,well toned young women though.

 

[1306kayaker]

Hi all - I found this quote regarding a surveillance camera at Mountainside Market. It turns out they do have one and the video was (most likely) turned over to the police. I think it's an interesting theory that VM could have run into/been seen by someone there prior to leaving for her walk/run. It makes perfect sense to me that she could have been wearing her workout clothes when she stopped in, especially since she was there only about an hour prior to working out.

From the Boston Globe, 8/8: “Joanne Kay, manager of the Mountainside Market, a local bakery and cafe, said she plans to hand over surveillance video from her store to investigators because joggers, cyclists, and hikers frequently stop in for refreshments.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...tory.html?p1=Article_Related_Box_Article_More

 

[ThinkHard]

Aren't most of these serial killer types mad because they can't get attention from girls? The guy in your scenario sounds like a player who can rack up notches in the bedpost so to speak. If he's that suave and he's getting attention from women he must only be motivated by power and not sex.

Not all serial killers are awkward social weirdos. Many are true sociopaths and very capable of being suave...think Ted Bundy. Btw the crimes even sexual crimes are NEVER about sex, they are always about control and power.

 

[ThinkHard]

I figured she probably knew the Rutland guy who drove into oncoming traffic the night after the murder killing himself and critically injuring others. That's because of the regional aspect of the 5-town area wrt school system etc, as you had previously described. I live in an area with some regional school systems and went to a private school myself, so totally get the scenario.

However, you said "friends with" -- are you using the term friends very loosely or do you mean it as it's generally defined? (Or as it was defined before Facebook.) Also how do you know this?

Thanks ThinkHard.

I don't know how close they were but I do know they were "friends" as described
by her mother, I know nothing of the nature of the relationship beyond that. My friends Aunt who I know personally, is friends with VM's mom, and mentioned Mrs Marcotte said VM and TA were friends.