MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #5

[Kickoff61]

Thank you. That's the thing (along with a knowledge of the road and that area) that makes me think it's a local, and somebody who intends on staying in the area. I think the areas where she was burnt - feet, hands, and head - also supports the fact that the burning was done to erase DNA. All those points are likely contact points during a struggle. Also, the taking of all her clothes seems more than just a trophy thing. They also would likely have his DNA on them.

You are welcome. That makes perfect sense Joshua.

 

[searunner]

She would be wearing running clothes even if out for a "walk". The point is to get your body moving to the degree that conditions allow. My girlfriend does the exact same thing. And if she goes to the gym she still wears what I am referring to as "running clothes" even if her intention is to lift a few 10 pound weights and then go home. I think you are getting a little too hung up on the word "running". Workout clothing is like multibillion dollar industry these days. It is highly unlikely that she would be wearing khaki shorts. Running shorts, or workout shorts if we should call them that, are far more comfortable to be in if you are physically active, especially if it's hot. Plus they give you a chance to show off the body that you have been working so hard for, which is half the reason people work out in the first place. JMO

As a longtime dedicated woman runner, I agree fully with your statement that she'd likely wear the same exercise clothing to walk in as she would to run in. This way she's not only most comfortable for a walk, but is also dressed to run should she decide to do a brief run if she was feeling it.

My thinking for Vanessa is a Under Armour type (not necessarily that brand) athletic shirt and typical running shorts. She probably had clothing from lululemon, as it specializes in women's yoga wear, but also has clothing that she could wear walking or running. FWIW, I do not see her as wearing what's essentially a sports bra as a shirt. In my experience, women who are "true" runners, as opposed to gym-type women who occasionally run, do not generally wear those. There are exceptions, of course. Sure many people saw the footage of Karina in the Queen's case - that's what she had on.

 

[ThinkHard]

What I mean is all the small details nobody would look at and assume could be important or related. Or even any social media posts or Snapchat posts because those often could show she was about to go on a run. I mean there could be things as small as being in the backyard of her parents place where any neighbor could spot her for example. Not saying it's a neighbor but to me it's possible and especially if there's any with windows looking out at her bedroom window she stays in when there. I just think it could be something so simple related to her day or weekend that most people would not think of it as important because some of us aren't but locals and don't know what her house or neighborhood look like fully so we wouldn't know the person could have spotted her there. Or we wouldn't know if a post or Snapchat she made let them know that. Which sadly snaps vanish after 24hrs but before they do they let you know who viewed them and I think she was tech savvy and likely used it like most people her and my age. There's just so much she did that we either aren't privy to the info about from LE or they aren't aware of it either. One thinks for sure the SUV obviously is involved as far as they are concerned. My only question is if they owned it or rented it etc the way they word the things I read and watched it comes off as if this SUV was seen driving around the area and parked off there also. Maybe it's the wording but my mind went to someone driving around the area probably lives somewhere in the area based on what they said and must have been seen enough to be reported as a tip. So to me that says something about the way theyvwerw driving seemed weird like driving slowly or driving around past the same area multiple times or seeing it drive in the area close to her parents place and then one like it parked off the road. Basically my question is what has to happen for people to start calling in tips because they clearly mentally remembered this vehicle being around and my question is why. I don't notice half he ones that drive around my neighborhood unless they're doing something off to me.

Also there were loads of tips about all different types of vehicles driving around that day, I remember reading in the PL multiple truck sightings and light colored vehicles .... yet 3 months later this is the one LE has chosen to focus on...my feeling is they are only telling us a tiny piece of whybtheybthink this vehicle was involved...but I think they put the info out with far more backing and thorough checking then just a vehicle spotted a few times. So I don't take that info lightly.

Btw you just made me think of something....say they know vehicles revregistered to a male head of household but male head has a son and perhaps it was the son who drove it.....even if they have DNA...driving a dark SUV is not enough evidence to force someone to give over a DNA sample...so perhaps they think someone borrowed a vehicle from a family member and they need the family members collaboration to get enough evidence to subpoena for DNA.

 

[ThinkHard]

Perhaps if we knew when her last known relationship was and where he lived it could help us figure out things because I don't believe her run had anything remotely related to meeting up with a dude cause that's not where you meet up with a dude you're secretly seeing. I myself the few times I've kept something secret either met them at their place or mine after being around them and friends at a bar or just going directly to them and we'd always act like nothing was going on. But the thing is I still told my bestfriends eventually and I think hers would know and even if she wouldn't know I still don't believe she would go for a run to meet him. Granted she did change the privacy settings but still... and the fact that they went door to door collecting DNA and worded it as if the SUV could be local makes me believe they think he lives in the area because why else go do that? But I would wonder if the time around her breakup with her last guy was the time she made her privacy changed(as in obsessive crazy ex) but they ruled him out so I doubt it's him. But it would also potentially show us she changed the settings to prevent anyone from knowing her route because she changed things up for the dude. But that said I don't believe it's related to her love life and sure knowing the info could help us but I think it's not random(as in he had seen her multiple times even if she only saw him once or twice) and I think the person lives in the area around there or even closer to the bus stop where she could be seen getting on or off. But anyone who knows what time she gets on the bus should be able to guess she runs between such and such times. And if she went on a run on the day before(can't recall if it said she had and I only know she went to dinner with the dad) then they could have saw her then and decided the next day he would strike but I don't believe that and I believe this was thought out and planned out for awhile. And a person who knows her well enough to know things that help him pull it off. And on top of it if this was a crime of oppurtinity by a stranger who never saw her before then why not attack other joggers if they'd waited around all morning to pounce? It doesn't make sense to me that they'd just sit and wait hours. And if this area isn't a common jogging area then even more so does it tell me they knew her patterns even if not always exact. Most girls love posting a selfie related to gym time or running even if it's them looking good in their clothes before with some caption about it. And depending on her privacy settings if she did that on Snapchat and had it set to anyone can see her snaps and like me rarely checks who's viewing hers then the dude easily could have found her. I mean my best male friend goes and finds dudes on every social media because he finds them cute cause he met them or they added him on one thing. Like honestly sometimes he gets a bit stalker like with dudes so to me it isn't a stretch that some stalker or obsessed person wouldn't find her social media accounts and follow or add them(potentially on a fake Instagram or fb or Snapchat if they're smart) even if this person is a friend or something that just tells me it would be even easier to find. Not to mention a feature tells you who's near you and i forget the name of the app but there was one awhile back where you could track where your friends are or whatever it was. And on IG and FB most posts say a location or on IG a general vacinity of where you're uploading things from as I've learned via catfish the show. Basically anyone my age who's active on social media could easily be tracked most likely if someone really wanted to and put a lot of time and effort into it. What if this isn't a local though but a coworker from google? This just occurred to me but if she worked in social media or web related things awhile then who's to say some tech savvy dude who worked with her wasn't stalking her and knew how to figure it all out or hack into stuff to find the info out. Still think it's a local but I hope they looked into coworkers and asked them things but I'm sure they did already. Just think someone working there would have the skills to know all sorts of stuff about how to track the stuff.

Keep in mind you said if you were seeing someone you would just go to his place or he to yours....but what if neither of those places are an option?...then it makes perfect sense to me you would use a cover no one would ever question (running) to see him...or at least perhaps a standing weekly appointment and that's were that got to say their goodbyes before she headed back.,

If she was seeing someone I don't think she would always meet them in the woods...but I can certainly see using running as a little cover to get a goodbye in without bringing attention to anything. It's what I would have done if I was in her shoes and seeing someone I wasn't ready to tell people about it. The thing with a good cover is, it's always best to use something you already do and no one would question, rather then to have to make up a new lie. Love is love is love...sometimes it speaks stronger then the mind.

We certainly do not know what VM did, but I do think it is a possibility and one that would explain many things in my mind regarding this case.

Regarding seeing her get on and off a bus...that really doesn't make any sense....given Worcester bus station is a 30 minute drive through at least two town backroads from the bus station to Princeton. So that wouldn't be realistic for someone to know her running or we she was headed from the bus stop of the just spotted her at the bus station.

 

[searunner]

Also there were loads of tips about all different types of vehicles driving around that day, I remember reading in the PL multiple truck sightings and light colored vehicles .... yet 3 months later this is the one LE has chosen to focus on...my feeling is they are only telling us a tiny piece of whybtheybthink this vehicle was involved...but I think they put the info out with far more backing and thorough checking then just a vehicle spotted a few times. So I don't take that info lightly.

Btw you just made me think of something....say they know vehicles revregistered to a male head of household but male head has a son and perhaps it was the son who drove it.....even if they have DNA...driving a dark SUV is not enough evidence to force someone to give over a DNA sample...so perhaps they think someone borrowed a vehicle from a family member and they need the family members collaboration to get enough evidence to subpoena for DNA.

That is either one of my theories or touching very close to it. Can't explore it though. Like you, apparently, I don't think the SUV definitely belongs to the perp.

And on a related topic... somebody has got to either know who did this or have strong suspicions. I don't care if the perp is a single guy who lives alone and doesn't have a job where scratches would be noticed. Many people have relatives who live nearby. If not, everyone has neighbors. And this area isn't a big city where it is easier to fade into the background.

 

[Evey]

With respect to a firearm. Does It seem to anyone else that someone with this kind of propensity for violence would own one? What would be the reasons they didn't have one, or seemingly didn't have one on them?

Too young?
Prior convictions? (would seem DNA would be in system of this we're the case)
Left it home? This would Point toward not planned at the time he left his house that day.

Maybe he doesn't like guns?

Just a new topic to discuss, if anyone has any thoughts on it.

Well there was the evidence dropped at the scene but don't believe it was a gun and assume people would have heard the gun and tipped the cops. That said to me it says he didn't need one. Which means something he did or about him had him knowing that or he's too young as stated. The one that didn't involve a gun though was the ally brueger one but originally I read both KV and VM were strangled but then I'll read stuff saying they don't know what killed her and stuff so I'm nkt sure anymore. If she was raped and strangled it could show a lot more in common with a killer with some MO with his much in common those two cases have. Part of me could see this as someone who had put off his urges until karina and then that triggered him to decide to finally act and kill Vanessa. But I also think he's killed before but this is all just my opinion.

 

[Kickoff61]

I don't see it so black and white. There are many scenarios. For instance, he could be out of town, planning to target someone with the means to do it and looking around for a target, then sees her and carries it out (with what he has with him already). He could be from out of town and driving around and acts impulsively without the full plans ahead of time , not planned means to do it, etc. He could be in town and been watching her and planned how he will carry it out one day completely or he could be in town, fantasizing, then act impulsively when he sees her this day on a whim (without so much exact planning). He could know her through association, even having talked to her before in some prior activity or run in somewhere. He could know of her by only seeing her in the area. He could not know her or know of her at all. This is the issue. The scenarios go on and on which is what LE narrows down. Yet, we do not know what they have, so it leaves this very open to numerous possibilities.

**However, IMO - I agree with Joshua the fire was likely to remove his DNA, ***especially because a struggle was reported***, so specifically 'after' the struggle occurred and he knew his DNA was left behind. If he knew he is not in the 'system' yet, it points more to someone in the town being worried of the connection still being made compared to someone outside of the area who can take off and they may never make the connection.

 

[ThinkHard]

Don't have time to read through all the posts on Vanessa's thread, but can someone tell me if she had a very visible internet presence? Had she done any modeling, or acting, or anything of that nature?

No she didn't have a very big SM presence. She had instagram which was quickly disabled after her death and FB which was set to private, and twitter which her last post was months earlier and about something she bought online or the e-commerce site she was trying to buy something from or something...and then map my run which she made private about a year before.

 

[searunner]

Just a theory which has been on my mind for hours and even more so with everyone saying they said the or had access part regarding he SUV. What if this male coworker who is tech savvy as I've theorized and as I just saw theorized(I've been playing catch up) who would have the means to hack into her phone or know her well enough to have info on her life and this person rented a SUV for that day? To me I think while it's a local person I also could see that happening but much less so. One question is what town did she attend college and could she have a stalker via there or one who's tech savvy from a class she took. I see that being much more likely than a coworker if she attended college in the area. And as far as her yoga goes if it was a nice hot day she may have done that outside. Where someone could see her. Maybe the DNA thing going a second time(unless I read it wrong) is cause this person was out of town during the first or they couldn't find him to do one. If his job requires travel it's surely possible. And by testing the area it cliks be he may have a relative they're hoping and that they could get some DNA that shows the killer is related. Also one thought I have is if this is a killer who obsessively looks into the media about the case then what if he's here now and giving us false info? Obviously he wouldn't say he's local so this wouldn't be directed at anyone that lives around there or anyone in general but i just could see a killer hanging out here to see who's onto him and maybe giving false info if someone is too close to figuring out a break.

She went to Boston University.

I posted previously on the DNA testing you're talking about in response to someone posting a link about it. I recall ThinkHard did, too. It's called familiar DNA searching. NY LE is petitioning to use it in the Queen's case.

 

[ThinkHard]

Just a theory which has been on my mind for hours and even more so with everyone saying they said the or had access part regarding he SUV. What if this male coworker who is tech savvy as I've theorized and as I just saw theorized(I've been playing catch up) who would have the means to hack into her phone or know her well enough to have info on her life and this person rented a SUV for that day? To me I think while it's a local person I also could see that happening but much less so. One question is what town did she attend college and could she have a stalker via there or one who's tech savvy from a class she took. I see that being much more likely than a coworker if she attended college in the area. And as far as her yoga goes if it was a nice hot day she may have done that outside. Where someone could see her. Maybe the DNA thing going a second time(unless I read it wrong) is cause this person was out of town during the first or they couldn't find him to do one. If his job requires travel it's surely possible. And by testing the area it cliks be he may have a relative they're hoping and that they could get some DNA that shows the killer is related. Also one thought I have is if this is a killer who obsessively looks into the media about the case then what if he's here now and giving us false info? Obviously he wouldn't say he's local so this wouldn't be directed at anyone that lives around there or anyone in general but i just could see a killer hanging out here to see who's onto him and maybe giving false info if someone is too close to figuring out a break.

She went to BU. She was living there working for I want to say vistaprint (but don't quote me on that) when she took the job at google and moved to NYC about 1-1.5 years before her death.

But yes I think it's possible to put tracking on someone's phone without them knowing...especially if you were a tech savvy genius working at google...

Perhaps this suave tech savvy guy gave VM the creeps and it was part of the reason she left the city every wknd?

 

[ThinkHard]

That is either one of my theories or touching very close to it. Can't explore it though. Like you, apparently, I don't think the SUV definitely belongs to the perp.

And on a related topic... somebody has got to either know who did this or have strong suspicions. I don't care if the perp is a single guy who lives alone and doesn't have a job where scratches would be noticed. Many people have relatives who live nearby. If not, everyone has neighbors. And this area isn't a big city where it is easier to fade into the background.

I agree I think it's likely to SUV doesn't belong to the perp but I do think it was involved in someway with the murder that day. And I think the fact it doesn't belong to the perp is complicating things...

Even if they go to every house in Princeton with a dark SUV you then have to grille everyone in the house as to if someone else had acces to it that Sunday and then track that person down...and that's assuming the vehicle owners are being honest...and even if they are which dark SUV borrower to you follow up on?

I must confess it's creeping me out a bit that I know someone who grew up in Princeton is in their mid 30's, often drives their uncles old dark SUV (I want to say it's an old pathfinder or something), owns a business that would put him in close contact with girls btw the ages of 16-35...was having problems with his wife over the summer, has a history of infidelity, has a history of violence against women who don't put out for him, and currently lives the next town over. He is the type who can be suave and charming but there is a definite creepiness and coldness about him too. I certainly don't think I can just go around accusing random people I know with no proof...but I just can't help but think of him...especially when the dark SUV thing came out. But if it was him, I think I wouldn't be all that surprised.

 

[searunner]

There is no evidence of strangulation. There has been no cause of death reported.

Your post was in response to one of ForensicMass's posts where he mentions she was strangled.

I have definitely read in the media that she was strangled, as well. The source - don't know, as I'm not keeping notes, but I have a good memory. Now, of course, that media source (or sources, plural) could be wrong, but it is out there. And I don't think even rags with poor journalistic standards would include a cause of death if they didn't have a solid source. But most anything is possible.

I'd imagine the person who you responded to will have a response for you. He just went through all the old stuff at once, so info should be very fresh in his mind.

 

[ThinkHard]

I don't see it so black and white. There are many scenarios. For instance, he could be out of town, planning to target someone with the means to do it and looking around for a target, then sees her and carries it out (with what he has with him already). He could be from out of town and driving around and acts impulsively without the full plans ahead of time , not planned means to do it, etc. He could be in town and been watching her and planned how he will carry it out one day completely or he could be in town, fantasizing, then act impulsively when he sees her this day on a whim (without so much exact planning). He could know her through association, even having talked to her before in some prior activity or run in somewhere. He could know of her by only seeing her in the area. He could not know her or know of her at all. This is the issue. The scenarios go on and on which is what LE narrows down. Yet, we do not know what they have, so it leaves this very open to numerous possibilities.

**However, IMO - I agree with Joshua the fire was likely to remove his DNA, ***especially because a struggle was reported***, so specifically 'after' the struggle occurred and he knew his DNA was left behind. If he knew he is not in the 'system' yet, it points more to someone in the town being worried of the connection still being made compared to someone outside of the area who can take off and they may never make the connection.

A struggle wouldn't just leave DNA in those 3 places though...and a perp who just got into it with her would obviously know that.

To me that's like falling down in the mud and then just cleaning up by washing your hands...obviously rather ineffective ... you know what I'm saying?

 

[Evey]

Typically the secrets about a persons murder are hidden in the clues that aren't made public and the aspects of their life that aren't immediately obvious....haven't you guys ever watch First 48?

Most murders are committed by people known to the victim as well.

Based on those things and what I have seen of the case so far...I tend to believe this case leans toward personal and in the details...then random and opportunistic.

I don't have any real reason to believe this I suppose, but my gut instinct is that she was not targeted to be murdered that day...but rather an encounter escalated with someone she knew and he had to cover his tracks.

Oh I agree and know they don't tell us plenty of things. And I agree about the rest the only part I haven't fully decided on is if I think it's planned or not purely because of what he likely had to have on him to torch the body unless people are wrong and it's done lighter but even then only smokers carry those and I doubt it would cause much damage fast. But if his car was there and the stuff was in it or he ran home and got in the car and drove back with what was needed I could see it not being planed. But the fire and if she was tied to anything and the fact that her clothes and phone were taken lead me to believe it was planned.

 

[Kickoff61]

Your post was in response to one of ForensicMass's posts where he mentions she was strangled.

I have definitely read in the media that she was strangled, as well. The source - don't know, as I'm not keeping notes, but I have a good memory. Now, of course, that media source (or sources, plural) could be wrong, but it is out there. And I don't think even rags with poor journalistic standards would include a cause of death if they didn't have a solid source. But most anything is possible.

I'd imagine the person who you responded to will have a response for you. He just went through all the old stuff at once, so info should be very fresh in his mind.

I have only seen media reporting the NY jogger was strangled. I have not seen any reports of the specific cause of death for VM.

 

[ThinkHard]

Your post was in response to one of ForensicMass's posts where he mentions she was strangled.

I have definitely read in the media that she was strangled, as well. The source - don't know, as I'm not keeping notes, but I have a good memory. Now, of course, that media source (or sources, plural) could be wrong, but it is out there. And I don't think even rags with poor journalistic standards would include a cause of death if they didn't have a solid source. But most anything is possible.

I'd imagine the person who you responded to will have a response for you. He just went through all the old stuff at once, so info should be very fresh in his mind.

You are correct media has reported that she was strangled but this never has been confirmed by LE...neither has the burning or the whether she was sexually assaulted but we do know I rape kit was used but we do not know it's conclusion.

I believe the only things LE specifically has stated is
-time frame 1-3
-perp is male
-perp likely has scratches
-looking for anyone with access to dark SUV

 

[Kickoff61]

I continue to think it did not go as he planned with her level of fight which LE believes left some sort of marks on him and then he took further action after that happened. May have been impulsive at that point. I just see that as the turning point in what happened with this.

 

[Kickoff61]

You are correct media has reported that she was struggled but this never has been confirmed by LE...neither has the burning or the whether she was sexually assaulted but we do know I rape kit was used but we do not know it's conclusion.

I believe the only things LE specifically has stated is
-time frame 1-3
-perp is male
-perp likely has scratches
-looking for anyone with access to dark SUV

Correct that is what is known.

 

[ThinkHard]

Oh I agree and know they don't tell us plenty of things. And I agree about the rest the only part I haven't fully decided on is if I think it's planned or not purely because of what he likely had to have on him to torch the body unless people are wrong and it's done lighter but even then only smokers carry those and I doubt it would cause much damage fast. But if his car was there and the stuff was in it or he ran home and got in the car and drove back with what was needed I could see it not being planed. But the fire and if she was tied to anything and the fact that her clothes and phone were taken lead me to believe it was planned.

There are a lot of things about the crime scene that make me feel it was staged. Im just saying. I think someone tried to make it look random to cover their tracks. Jmo.

 

[searunner]

I have only seen media reporting the NY jogger was strangled. I have not seen any reports of the specific cause of death for VM.

I know I'm not confusing the two cases, as I'm not closely following the Queen's case. I have definitely read in the media (not just on this thread) that Vanessa was strangled. Again, the media outlet might be questionable, but that info is out there.