Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal - Part 11

[CaliKid]

And once the world's good citizens begin to understand the extent of the parents' neglect (Madeleine heartbroken, crying for her daddy for almost an hour and a half two nights before she disappeared), they're going to be even more unpopular.

Jdee, it's a good theory except for the evidence of the sniffer dog which says her body was in the apartment for two hours after she died.

 

[Jdee]

I haven't worked out the time line yet Cali but I am leaning to a perp causing her demise. Not that I am a great fan of the M's ... but my gut tells me they are guilty only of neglect and possibly drugging but not killing their child. Either scenerio is not good.

 

[CaliKid]

No, the Payne's used the babyphone service and were also not amongst those who were apparently up and down checking on the children (according to the time-line), because they didn't have to.

I've always had it the other way around. I figured the Oldfields used the babyphone and the other family had a sitter. It made sense to me because Fiona Payne's mother was visiting, and they wouldn't want her to think they were neglecting their children. But I checked back, and you are right. Good job!

 

[Texana]

I can't see why any burglar would take the body--what the heck for? Remember, no body knows his identity--so he has no reason to try and cover that up! Just flee ASAP before he's seen or caught.

The evidence of the cadaver dogs is the most troubling.

This is why the twins should have been woken and questioned immediately.

 

[mrsmousemat]

the hotel has stated in the papers that the childcare services were available those days.

Additionally, apparently the caregivers were perfectly adequate during the day when the children were at the creche (is this "nursery"? whats the translation?) all day, every day. Not sure why suddenly at night they'd become unacceptable, or how possibly no adult could be safer than young and foolish adult in this particular case.

The creche opens early so would the same the creche workers be on duty from 9am to around midnight - even with breaks?

And are the creche staff the babysitters?

No disagreement that theMcCanns should have hired sitters - I wouldn't as I've never left my children, but the exact circumstances don't seem to be known.

 

[CaliKid]

I can't see why any burglar would take the body--what the heck for? Remember, no body knows his identity--so he has no reason to try and cover that up! Just flee ASAP before he's seen or caught.

The evidence of the cadaver dogs is the most troubling.

This is why the twins should have been woken and questioned immediately.

You'd have to be very desperate to resort to murder to hide your identity. I suppose the thief might be someone who worked at Ocean Club and his robbery was so lucrative he was afraid Madeleine might identify him. But that still doesn't answer the question about why he'd take her body.

 

[mrsmousemat]

What is the money raised actually being used for? Not private investigator, right? The website/blog, the poster printings and the bracelet production...but what actual physical act that would track Maddie down is being financed? Other than balloon launches and piper concerts, of course.
Am I missing something here?[/quote]

I don't know enough about charity accounting but it has to be demonstrated that charity money has to be used for legal purposes.

If the fund employs private detectives they can operate in areas where the police cannot. To find Madeleine, they may have to use pay-offs and break the law to work undercover. If she was abducted by a paedophile group, it may have been necessary to use methods that cannot not be fully accountable publically.

If the police took the same route, the case against any abductor could be thrown out if the case came to court.

Likewise, if the Portuguese press continue to implicate the McCanns, or even Robert Murat - and they are guilty of a crime - they might walk free as it could be argued that a fair jury trial was not possible.

That is why the press have to be very careful in what they write about the case. Unfortunately the Portuguese press seem to view the case as cheap throwaway copy by treating speculation as fact, rather than taking the long-term view.

However, if it is a choice of getting Madeleine back yet seeing an abductor walk free - I would hazard a guess that everyone would prefer this option.

 

[Pinkhammer]

Oh, isn't that lovely....Gerry says "*advertiser censored** off" in front of all those little kids....first time I think I've seen this. :doh:

Gerry McCann is such a lowlife! He sounds like he's drunk ALL THE TIME.

 

[Texana]

You'd have to be very desperate to resort to murder to hide your identity. I suppose the thief might be someone who worked at Ocean Club and his robbery was so lucrative he was afraid Madeleine might identify him. But that still doesn't answer the question about why he'd take her body.

Could a four year old really identify anyone? In the dark, in and out so quickly. All he would have to say is, "I'm here to fix the plumbing" or some other story, if she awoke. Later she might say "a dark haired man was here." Good luck finding him then!

Most burglars are very good at getting in and out quickly. Especially if the timeline about visits is true--he would have to be very lucky or be watching the apartment to time the checks.

 

[colomom]

And once the world's good citizens begin to understand the extent of the parents' neglect (Madeleine heartbroken, crying for her daddy for almost an hour and a half two nights before she disappeared), they're going to be even more unpopular.

Jdee, it's a good theory except for the evidence of the sniffer dog which says her body was in the apartment for two hours after she died.

I have real questions about this 2 hour requirement Cali. I posted this from Sousa's interview:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1638058&highlight=Sousa#post1638058 post # 56

"(on if a cadaver does not have to remain at a given location for a long time in order to make the dog react)

"According to the information that I collected, that is the situation. Right after a human being stops living, as its vital functions cease, odors are set free, the body immediately enters the decomposition process, due to the various enzymes and other substances that are contained in the organism. In most cases, it takes hours or days for the body to release odor, for example, for a human being to detect. In the case of that dog, he doesn't need that amount of time, he can detect the smell in the first moments."

I remember reading that when the dogs were first discussed. Then everyone focused on the 2 hour requirement. I also read that there could be a difference between dogs detecting children VS adults. Also, what if her body was hidden in a suitcase immediately, moved to a car, then taken somewhere far away and removed from the suitcase (hours later) and then the suitcase brought back to the apartment. Wouldn't the scent then permeate the area around where it was then stored??

Just wondering...

 

[colomom]

I don't know enough about charity accounting but it has to be demonstrated that charity money has to be used for legal purposes.

The fund is not a charity...

 

[concernedperson]

I have real questions about this 2 hour requirement Cali. I posted this from Sousa's interview:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1638058&highlight=Sousa#post1638058 post # 56

"(on if a cadaver does not have to remain at a given location for a long time in order to make the dog react)

"According to the information that I collected, that is the situation. Right after a human being stops living, as its vital functions cease, odors are set free, the body immediately enters the decomposition process, due to the various enzymes and other substances that are contained in the organism. In most cases, it takes hours or days for the body to release odor, for example, for a human being to detect. In the case of that dog, he doesn't need that amount of time, he can detect the smell in the first moments."

I remember reading that when the dogs were first discussed. Then everyone focused on the 2 hour requirement. I also read that there could be a difference between dogs detecting children VS adults. Also, what if her body was hidden in a suitcase immediately, moved to a car, then taken somewhere far away and removed from the suitcase (hours later) and then the suitcase brought back to the apartment. Wouldn't the scent then permeate the area around where it was then stored??

Just wondering...

I believe the evidence would be in a suitcase just from my studying these types of cases over the years. But, with that said, it also is dependent on the type dogs used and if they are well trained. The Body Farm in Tennessee is equipped to discuss all the elements of decomposition.

 

[colomom]

The creche opens early so would the same the creche workers be on duty from 9am to around midnight - even with breaks?

And are the creche staff the babysitters?

No disagreement that theMcCanns should have hired sitters - I wouldn't as I've never left my children, but the exact circumstances don't seem to be known.

The McCanns stated that the reason they did not hire a sitter or use the evening creche was because they were uneasy about leaving the children with strangers. I seriously doubt that they interviewed every creche worker and thereby determined that those that worked in the evening could not be trusted but those that worked in the daytime could. The point is that they said they did not want to leave their children with strangers and yet, they did, everyday.

 

[colomom]

I believe the evidence would be in a suitcase just from my studying these types of cases over the years. But, with that said, it also is dependent on the type dogs used and if they are well trained. The Body Farm in Tennessee is equipped to discuss all the elements of decomposition.

Understood, I really think we don't have enough detailed information about the dogs...or anything else for that matter.

 

[colomom]

I've seen this video before and G didn't say that. I think this was edited in by someone. I have a hard time believing they would send out a video to the news media with him cussing in front of his kids. I know they are pretty stupid but I am not buying into this one...

The one thing that does not fit with an editing is the laugh by the filmer after he says what he does. Do you know where you saw another version where he doesn't say that?

 

[colomom]

Likewise, if the Portuguese press continue to implicate the McCanns, or even Robert Murat - and they are guilty of a crime - they might walk free as it could be argued that a fair jury trial was not possible.

From: http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/world/portugal.htm

"In trials for serious crimes, a panel of three judges presides. For lesser crimes, a single judge presides. At the request of the accused, a jury may be used in trials for major crimes; in practice, requests for jury trials are extremely rare."

Chances are very good they would never have a jury.

 

[colomom]

Just found this on the Mirror board:

(take it with a BIG grain of salt)

"Tal & Qual" is a weekly newspaper sold on Fridays, and tomorrow their headline is: PJ believes the McCanns are implicated in Madeleine's death.

The article points out to the use of sedatives, saying this is the line of investigation followed by Police. I've been trying to locate if they have an online edition but apparently, they don't have.

I will buy it tomorrow!! I saw the frontpage on SIC Notícias, while they were showing the frontpages of tomorrow newspapers."

You can find it here: http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=7766

Pretty brave considering the McCanns threatening to sue....(maybe)

 

[colomom]

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1345062007

The dozen theories that claim to explain fate of Madeleine

 

[Jdee]

The McCanns stated that the reason they did not hire a sitter or use the evening creche was because they were uneasy about leaving the children with strangers. I seriously doubt that they interviewed every creche worker and thereby determined that those that worked in the evening could not be trusted but those that worked in the daytime could. The point is that they said they did not want to leave their children with strangers and yet, they did, everyday.

I think this is about the M's out drinking and cutting up THEN going to pick up their kids from the creche and having to deal with trying to settle them down so late so they themselves could 'pass out'. MUCH easier to leave the kids in bed all tucked in for the night and possibly 'dosed' up so when they themselves came in tipsy they could just 'crash'. No dealing with little ones... I think that is why they didn't want to use the baby sitting service. Obviously it had nothing to do with them not trusting them since they did leave them there during the day.. AND we have all seen them taking the twins there since!

 

[angarella]

Is Tal & Qual a British publication?