Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal - Part 8

[Shazza]

Note: I added the bolding on part of the quote of your post.

Actually I hope the parents made multiple trips and that staff are wrong otherwise one of my little theories about possible parental involvement in the disappearance of the child must be discarded. Not that I can't stand being wrong but I am as lazy as the next guy and scrapping one theory means I might have to work harder on others.

I do have a question for readers: Does anyone recall if it was released when this little dinner getaway of theparents was arranged? I mean was it a long standing plan or a last minute sort of affair?

The staff have been quoted saying that what the parents and their friends told the LE about them checking the children was wrong. If there was any parental involvement it could have been done before dinner as that is when the children were known to have been seen, from the time the children were picked up from the creche and their mother screamed "They have taken her" there is no evidence that anyone sighted the children.

 

[docwho3]

The staff have been quoted saying that what the parents and their friends told the LE about them checking the children was wrong. If there was any parental involvement it could have been done before dinner as that is when the children were known to have been seen, from the time the children were picked up from the creche and their mother screamed "They have taken her" there is no evidence that anyone sighted the children.

The part of one of my little test theories that may be shot down if staff is correct invloved how the body was disposed of.

 

[petra]

Note: I added the bolding on part of the quote of your post.

Actually I hope the parents made multiple trips and that staff are wrong otherwise one of my little theories about possible parental involvement in the disappearance of the child must be discarded. Not that I can't stand being wrong but I am as lazy as the next guy and scrapping one theory means I might have to work harder on others.

I do have a question for readers: Does anyone recall if it was released when this little dinner getaway of theparents was arranged? I mean was it a long standing plan or a last minute sort of affair?

This was a package holiday. See link-click in PT and you can see the resort. Half-board provided, for adults only.

The group met every evening sans children, I believe (depending on which source) this was the fifth or seventh evening meal they had together-not always at Tapas.

It has been reported that one evening the group had dinner at a local restaurant circa 800 plus meters outside the resort area.

http://www.markwarner.co.uk/

 

[Shazza]

The part of one of my little test theories that may be shot down if staff is correct invloved how the body was disposed of.

That is the mystery, there was mention of how long it took the parents to reach a particular location (19 minutes), why or how this came about or how it fits is not clear to me, but other posters did have their opinions in the earlier threads, which at this point in time I have no memory recall. But why would they time themselves to get somewhere.

 

[petra]

IIRC, didn't the parents have tea with the children at the creche each day. This was some time between 4-5 and was actually a light dinner for the children- pasta was mentioned. I believe this would have been their evening meal, if they were bathed and asleep between 7-8 pm.

imoo

 

[Shazza]

IIRC, didn't the parents have tea with the children at the creche each day. This was some time between 4-5 and was actually a light dinner for the children- pasta was mentioned. I believe this would have been their evening meal, if they were bathed and asleep between 7-8 pm.

imoo

I dont know if that happened every night, but if it did there was still from 5pm till the parents went out to dinner with their friends when no one else saw the kids but their parents, so that is about 3 and 1/2 hours the parents were alone with their children, and then if they were not checked on by the parents till 10 pm then that is another 1 and 1/2 hours that the children were alone in their room. There was a lot of time for something to happen by whomever in those periods of time.

 

[petra]

I dont know if that happened every night, but if it did there was still from 5pm till the parents went out to dinner with their friends when no one else saw the kids but their parents, so that is about 3 and 1/2 hours the parents were alone with their children, and then if they were not checked on by the parents till 10 pm then that is another 1 and 1/2 hours that the children were alone in their room. There was a lot of time for something to happen by whomever in those periods of time.

That sure is a large window of time.
After looking at the resort link, I see the vacation duration is for 7 or 14 days. So I am assuming that this was dinner number 5 of a 7 day trip, since it has been mentioned they were due to leave in two days.bbb

 

[Shazza]

That sure is a large window of time.
After looking at the resort link, I see the vacation duration is for 7 or 14 days. So I am assuming that this was dinner number 5 of a 7 day trip, since it has been mentioned they were due to leave in two days.bbb

It definitely is a large window of time, and in that time so many things can go wrong, Petra I am having a blonde moment, what does the bbb mean at the end of your post.

 

[docwho3]

I dont know if that happened every night, but if it did there was still from 5pm till the parents went out to dinner with their friends when no one else saw the kids but their parents, so that is about 3 and 1/2 hours the parents were alone with their children, . . .

My problem is in body disposal: If they left the body whole they had an obvious burden to cart around until it could be disposed of. The size would be noticeable. So did they cut up the body as many other killers have done with victims? And then the time is limiting possibilities.

Ok so how long does it take to get from "we're home with the kids" to the point of murdering one of them? And then how long would it take to cut up a body that size into small enough pieces that they might be unnoticed if disposed of? Hunters- How long would it take to cut up an animal the same size right after it had been killed? And how much time would one need for clean up afterwards, knowing that L.E. would soon be crawling all over the place? And if the death was unplanned then how long would it take to figure out how to dispose of the body and then come up with the fake kidnap scenario.

Even if one of them walked in and immediately hit her in the head with a hammer killing her instantly (or smothered her, or choked her to death which takes longer than a hammer, 3 1/2 hours seems a tad short on time required. Oh and how was it no one heard anything while all this was going on?

But if they made several trips back to "check on the kids" during dinner you open all sorts of extra time for body disposal and clean up of the scene and the extra trips to and from dinner give them a reason to be seen being out and about and if they sometimes carried a small bag with them it might not raise questions at the time and after the hue and cry was later raised it would drive the memory of any small bags out of mind since everyone would be trying to think if they saw 3 yrs old girl being carried away.

I know some of this may have sounded silly but I was just tossing in various scenarios and trying to see if any of the pieces of the puzzle fit better that way even if the ideas at first glance sound stupid.

 

[petra]

It definitely is a large window of time, and in that time so many things can go wrong, Petra I am having a blonde moment, what does the bbb mean at the end of your post.

LOL--no blonde moment :blushing: :blushing:
I am using an IBM-think pad lap top with an English keyboard that one of our kids no longer use.

The mouse is a little red dot in the middle of the key board and it is right above the letter "b".....so my big fingers hit it by mistake!!!

:blowkiss: good catch...I wish it was something more clever than a mistake!! Need some practice on this laptop:blushing:

 

[Shazza]

LOL--no blonde moment :blushing: :blushing:
I am using an IBM-think pad lap top with an English keyboard that one of our kids no longer use.

The mouse is a little red dot in the middle of the key board and it is right above the letter "b".....so my big fingers hit it by mistake!!!

:blowkiss: good catch...I wish it was something more clever than a mistake!! Need some practice on this laptop:blushing:

Just what I needed Petra, a bit of light banter to settle the anguish I feel about this case, thanks mate.

 

[Shazza]

My problem is in body disposal: If they left the body whole they had an obvious burden to cart around until it could be disposed of. The size would be noticeable. So did they cut up the body as many other killers have done with victims? And then the time is limiting possibilities.

Ok so how long does it take to get from "we're home with the kids" to the point of murdering one of them? And then how long would it take to cut up a body that size into small enough pieces that they might be unnoticed if disposed of? Hunters- How long would it take to cut up an animal the same size right after it had been killed? And how much time would one need for clean up afterwards, knowing that L.E. would soon be crawling all over the place? And if the death was unplanned then how long would it take to figure out how to dispose of the body and then come up with the fake kidnap scenario.

Even if one of them walked in and immediately hit her in the head with a hammer killing her instantly (or smothered her, or choked her to death which takes longer than a hammer, 3 1/2 hours seems a tad short on time required. Oh and how was it no one heard anything while all this was going on?

But if they made several trips back to "check on the kids" during dinner you open all sorts of extra time for body disposal and clean up of the scene and the extra trips to and from dinner give them a reason to be seen being out and about and if they sometimes carried a small bag with them it might not raise questions at the time and after the hue and cry was later raised it would drive the memory of any small bags out of mind since everyone would be trying to think if they saw 3 yrs old girl being carried away.

I know some of this may have sounded silly but I was just tossing in various scenarios and trying to see if any of the pieces of the puzzle fit better that way even if the ideas at first glance sound stupid.

This scenario is one that I would never have thought of, I do however think that it could have been an accidental death, such as a drug overdose, as it is known Madelaine had a medical condition, and there has been thoughts that the children could have been sedated to help them sleep. The children have been heard crying at night by other resort dwellers, but which children has not been determined. So maybe if it was the one of the McCann children so that the parents dinner could go ahead they sedated their children and didnt have to back to check on them because they knew that would be sleeping, Madelaine could have had an allergic reaction, maybe due to her medical problems she may have seizured or fitted and died, these are all probable scenarios imo. But chopping up the body, I think is too over the top.

 

[petra]

Just what I needed Petra, a bit of light banter to settle the anguish I feel about this case, thanks mate.

Yes, I know what you mean--I am so stuck on, I guess obsessed with the parental negligance, that I cannot get my head around it. And add to that, the "no stone unturned" scheme with smile family holding up a tee-shirt. :silenced: :silenced: :silenced: :silenced:

I need another time out.

to doc- I can't even go there with deliberate parental murder and body removal. Sorry,my thoughts are not in that direction.

 

[Kizzbo]

I will have to read up on that detail as it escapes my memory for now. Perhaps someone else can post a comment to recap and update us on the outcome of that, if the outcome is known. I will also try to find time to read up on it again myself.

Your statement was in response to Calidkid - "The Towel, what happened to that?"

Madeleine Clues: The Towel

The letter was sent to Dutch paper De Telegraaf, and identified an area 15km (9.3 miles) from where Madeleine vanished. The letter was accompanied by a map. Next to a cross and two question marks, the sender wrote "vermoedelijke vindplaats Madeleine" - this is the place where Madeleine can probably be found. The newspaper was criticised by the parents for publishing the information rather than handing it to PJ for it to be checked for credibility.

See for example: http://tinyurl.com/yvsd27

A beach towel found at a site being investigated as a possible burial location for Madeleine McCann has been handed to police. The Dutch reporters who found the towel were criticised by the PJ for searching the area with sniffer dogs and possibly contaminated the scene.

A friend of Madeleine’s parents said that she saw the girl wrapped in what appeared to be a blanket as she was carried away by a man from her Algarve holiday apartment. (Timesonline.co.uk – news in brief , June 15th 2007)

See for example : http://tinyurl.com/24nu74

On 15th June the GNR isolated the zone of Odiáxere in the morning, (indicated in an anonymous letter as the area where they will find the body of Madeleine, the English child missing for 45 days) and members of the PJ investigated the area, but by 10.00 hours the searchhad already had finished.In accordance with the TSF, the GNR nor the PJ have given any type of information to the press, regarding the outcome of the search. Since this time, the PJ have not made further mention of the towel.

See for example: http://tinyurl.com/yobzjt

link to picture http://tinyurl.com/2nhlns Click on the photo to enlarge

 

[petra]

Shazza-guess we posted at the same time.
Off to do something more up lifting.

Have a good day everyone.

 

[Shazza]

Shazza-guess we posted at the same time.
Off to do something more up lifting.

Have a good day everyone.

Goodnight Petra, think I might do the same, need to lighten the mood or I will never sleep tonight, have had enough sleepless nights over the disappearance of Madelaine.
Prayers to Madelaine, hope you are warm and safe.

 

[docwho3]

. . .Madelaine could have had an allergic reaction, maybe due to her medical problems she may have seizured or fitted and died, these are all probable scenarios imo. But chopping up the body, I think is too over the top.

I agree that chopping up a body sounds over the top to most of us (although there have been cases on websleuths where husbands have cut up the wifes body for disposal) but again I am asking how the body could have been disposed of. I do not think there could have been any blood in the apartment or the parents might have already been arrested. So if, as you believe, the girl passed away from overdose of meds or complication of meds they still had to chance moving the body of a 3 yrs old to dispose of it and then at a certain time to raise the alarm "they've taken her!" If the body had been found anywhere with too much meds in it this too would have pointed at the parents and that would be as unacceptable to them as her body being found in her room with the meds in her.

At this point the scenarios for the body being disposed of by the parents seem unlikely at best. Could a friend have helped by disposing of the body? I suppose so but I suspect L.E. has looked into all those possibilities.

At this point it would be far a simpler scenario for someone else to have walked into the room and just taken the child away to raise, sell, or rape and kill and dispose of the body far enough away from where everyone was looking to have it go undiscovered this long. The child could have been carried away like any other child or could have been placed in a bag, a rug, a clothing hamper or even an ice chest on wheels and carted out past everyone.

 

[Shazza]

I agree that chopping up a body sounds over the top to most of us (although there have been cases on websleuths where husbands have cut up the wifes body for disposal) but again I am asking how the body could have been disposed of. I do not think there could have been any blood in the apartment or the parents might have already been arrested. So if, as you believe, the girl passed away from overdose of meds or complication of meds they still had to chance moving the body of a 3 yrs old to dispose of it and then at a certain time to raise the alarm "they've taken her!" If the body had been found anywhere with too much meds in it this too would have pointed at the parents and that would be as unacceptable to them as her body being found in her room with the meds in her.

At this point the scenarios for the body being disposed of by the parents seem unlikely at best. Could a friend have helped by disposing of the body? I suppose so but I suspect L.E. has looked into all those possibilities.

At this point it would be far a simpler scenario for someone else to have walked into the room and just taken the child away to raise, sell, or rape and kill and dispose of the body far enough away from where everyone was looking to have it go undiscovered this long. The child could have been carried away like any other child or could have been placed in a bag, a rug, a clothing hamper or even an ice chest on wheels and carted out past everyone.

Getting rid of the body (if that is the case) could have been done with the help of their dinner guests, why else would they have the pact of silence, if you have nothing to hide then you tell all, yet the McCanns and their friends seem to be clamming up. I suspect it is to protect someone, whether it was an accident or they just didnt want the public to know that they left their children alone, or they were directly involved with the disappearance of Madelaine. There is just something these people are not telling.

 

[docwho3]

Getting rid of the body (if that is the case) could have been done with the help of their dinner guests, why else would they have the pact of silence, if you have nothing to hide then you tell all, yet the McCanns and their friends seem to be clamming up. I suspect it is to protect someone, whether it was an accident or they just didnt want the public to know that they left their children alone, or they were directly involved with the disappearance of Madelaine. There is just something these people are not telling.

It is possible they are trying to hide something sinister or it is possible they are trying to protect the the parents rep with the press or there may be some other reason. At this point I do not know the full details of the "pact of silence" as I have read it referred to and I doubt anyone else knows or we would know what is allegedly being hidden.

If you are a doctor and thus have money and some influence in certain circles and you happen to know the right people to call in a country where you are vacationing and if your child passed away due to some overdose on your part or as a complication of your care you might be able to make a call and have the child removed from the place. You could go eat dinner as usual and then later raise the alarm and say "they have taken her." You would have an alibi in being at dinner and if you lied about having left to check on the kids and the staff at dinner says "no they stayed at dinner" it only strengthens your alibi for the time the child went missing.

What are the friends hiding? Maybe they knew the child was dead and why and sympathized with the doctor parents, not wishing their practice to be ruined over a random tragic accident. That sure is a lot of complex ifs to string together. I do not know if phone records in that part of the world would be helpful or not in such a case. I do not know if they are even available. Even so all this iffing is still a sort of overly complex thing.

 

[Shazza]

It is possible they are trying to hide something sinister or it is possible they are trying to protect the the parents rep with the press or there may be some other reason. At this point I do not know the full details of the "pact of silence" as I have read it referred to and I doubt anyone else knows or we would know what is allegedly being hidden.

If you are a doctor and thus have money and some influence in certain circles and you happen to know the right people to call in a country where you are vacationing and if your child passed away due to some overdose on your part or as a complication of your care you might be able to make a call and have the child removed from the place. You could go eat dinner as usual and then later raise the alarm and say "they have taken her." You would have an alibi in being at dinner and if you lied about having left to check on the kids and the staff at dinner says "no they stayed at dinner" it only strengthens your alibi for the time the child went missing.

What are the friends hiding? Maybe they knew the child was dead and why and sympathized with the doctor parents, not wishing their practice to be ruined over a random tragic accident. That sure is a lot of complex ifs to string together. I do not know if phone records in that part of the world would be helpful or not in such a case. I do not know if they are even available. Even so all this iffing is still a sort of overly complex thing.

This is a very complex case, and until Madelaine is found dead or alive, I fear we will never learn the truth.
Im done thinking tonight, so hope everyone has a good night/day whichever applies. For me it is Goodnight.